What the pros do differently ...

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Didn't read the whole thread. However, I noted this after the Open in November and I think it holds true for the latest PLP event. The 4" pockets have players moving the CB around differently. What would normally be 2/3 rail follow position routes. Have been swapped for single rail (possibly 2) draw shots.

Take any shot into the corner down the long rail for example, that then requires 3 rails to reach center table. That shot requires both follow and inside english. It's the inside english that adds the complexity. Consider that straight draw will get you back to center with either 1 rail or back/forth. When potting into 4"ers, you remove the variables. Side english is a variable. A convenient one, but sometimes unnecessary.
 

book collector

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If I could go back and start playing pool over, I would never use sidespin unless I had to .
I would practice it enough to know my boundaries, but I believe it is the main cause for misses, in most peoples game.
If you play 8 to 10 hours a day , every day for 20 years, you can do whatever you want and probably still get out. But if you play once or twice a week for 2 hours, twirling the ball all over the table I believe is a mistake.
<book collector learned to twirl his ball at an early age and loved to watch the ball twirl, and his money say arrividerci.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
If I could go back and start playing pool over, I would never use sidespin unless I had to .
I would practice it enough to know my boundaries, but I believe it is the main cause for misses, in most peoples game.
If you play 8 to 10 hours a day , every day for 20 years, you can do whatever you want and probably still get out. But if you play once or twice a week for 2 hours, twirling the ball all over the table I believe is a mistake.
<book collector learned to twirl his ball at an early age and loved to watch the ball twirl, and his money say arrividerci.

I believe all or 99.99% of players that advance to midlevel or better go through that spin the ball stage. I certainly did. First I learned a little draw and follow. I was playing with the mudball in the bar around the corner and on old neglected ten footers in another haunt so three feet or more of draw was impressive! Then came sidespin. Much easier to apply plus it looked cool. Cool was a factor to consider when I was fifteen. I don't remember how long it took me to get past the side spin if I can stage, months though and I was already playing nightly.

I watched the video from Neil F last night and noticed he usually combined considerable draw and a little side for his "stun-draw" shot. I almost always had a bit of side with my draw and follow shots too. Just a little added encouragement to do what I had in mind. I rarely went to a rail without a little side.

After what I considered my adolescent stage I put extreme side spin back in it's box and only used it when it was a must to get shape or when I had a wide open table to run around on. I see everyone from top pros to bangers get in trouble with extreme spin and I fall in that range between pros and bangers.(grin)

Hu
 

SSP

Well-known member
I have to disagree, I find the pro's hit center ball more often, I define draw and follow as center ball, and define striking the ball off center as "english" or sidespin, I think some shots appear as a draw shot when it is really a stun shot coming off a rail, pro's understand the pocket line and rarely get on the wrong side of the pocket line so going to the next shot doesn't require a "hero shot" to finish the run. I have been working on center ball and amazingly I am pocketing balls more consistently , I also found that in MOST instances adding an 1/8" of side spin is usually enough and that again I'm pocketing balls more consistently, I showed a couple of players on my team this and they are thrilled with the results as well.
 

eg9327

Active member
The amazing thing about pros is their defensive play. Years ago I played banks against Jose Parica at DCC. I am crappy at this game, but that day my aiming lines were ON at the first break, but Parica had to feel the table out. In a short order I was up 2-0. Everyone was amazed, especially me. Well, that didn't last. He dropped to a defensive mode and I barely got another open shot. He kept putting me in ridiculous positions. Make a ball and hide at the same time. Over and over. I lost 3-2 but absolutely loved the experience.
 

eg9327

Active member
I have to disagree, I find the pro's hit center ball more often, I define draw and follow as center ball, and define striking the ball off center as "english" or sidespin, I think some shots appear as a draw shot when it is really a stun shot coming off a rail, pro's understand the pocket line and rarely get on the wrong side of the pocket line so going to the next shot doesn't require a "hero shot" to finish the run. I have been working on center ball and amazingly I am pocketing balls more consistently , I also found that in MOST instances adding an 1/8" of side spin is usually enough and that again I'm pocketing balls more consistently, I showed a couple of players on my team this and they are thrilled with the results as well.
I'm amazed at how much control the pros get with center ball or near center ball.
 

nmh2008

Member
The pros do not use more or less spin than each other. They ALL play all over the cue ball. That's the biggest myth, almost as bad as elbow drop is bad.

The layout of the table dictates the pattern the pro will chose. Once that pattern is chosen, it does not matter if Shane or Filler or Archer is shooting. The CB must be hit in the exact same place and the exact same speed by all 3 of them to get the same pattern.

When you hear a (knowledgable) commentator say "he is going 2 rails out of the corner here, or 3 rails forward there, or stun straight across here", etc. all those shots have to be hit the same way whoever is shooting.

This event had JJ and Frost in the booth a lot. There is not a single shot that surprised them. This is all grade school shit. Pros play every single portion of the CB according to the pattern on the table.
The entirety of your post can be refuted with the fact that the simplest positional shot in pool (stop shot) can be played with varying degrees of draw & speed. The layout of the table + the conditions of the table + that players preferences/playing style + the opponent they're playing + any other number of variables will have pros picking different patterns and, thus, using different types of shots.

JJ and Frost understand that there are different ways to play shots and often call out different options. Even then they are occasionally surprised with the pattern, but they aren't going to outright criticize something they disagree with.
 

Tennesseejoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The only thing I find surprising is the number of follow shots played in that match. I don't disagree with your findings of course, I just haven't been paying attention to how much follow is being used by the top pro's or this is an atypical match, I don't know which.

I have long thought that slight stun, a little below center, is the true starting point for building shots for most top players. They are still hitting center ball to some extent but they are doing it with the upper portion of their cue tip. I haven't looked at this in years so this might have changed too.

Many started with a very low address to be sure they found center ball, some find it from top, not as common. The old deal of hiding what you did was real but pretty much went out with the dinosaurs. Other decent players knew how you hit a ball or could find out quickly setting up a shot they were curious about after the match.

The greatest kick I ever saw was on a bar table, a young Johnny Archer playing me. Started off with a very close kick into the foot rail, seven more contacts with rails zee banking before hitting the object ball. It stopped in the jaws without touching them, the shot finally ran out of gas. There were at least ten balls on the table when he made that shot to add a little complexity. I couldn't make the shot with just the four balls directly involved on the table. It hit every rail on the table once, two twice.

Hu
Will you diagram this for us?
 

camaro69926

Registered
When I watched my son play Fedor last year, it was all consistency. When my son played a shot the cue ball would be within of 1 to 6 inches of where he wanted. When Fedor played a shot he was within stopping right on a ball (for a safety) or in a very tight window for his next shot. The ball control was so amazing to watch.

Amateur's can practice all they want to make balls. Pro's make all the shots and can put the cue ball right where they want it. The most impressive shot to me that i have seen done twice by Joshua Filler. The cue ball is within the first diamond and the object ball is at the other end of the (9 foot) table straight in. His stroke is so good that he can make that shot and draw the cue ball back to the same end of the table.
 

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
Knowing the center is necessary. Slight variations to give the most natural collision with the object ball are required (often) 😉
Natural ball starts with the natural roll of the cueball.
Looking at the tip/ball impact gives me the most accurate application of the computer output. Sometimes it even works. 😉
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Will you diagram this for us?

It has been about thirty-five years but I have given it a lot of thought, especially when I tried to duplicate the shot working several hours a handful of times. I downloaded some diagramming software a few days ago, already forgot the name and don't know how to use it yet.

The cue ball was pretty close to the midpoint of the foot rail and frozen against one of my balls. The cue ball was about one inch off the rail and going to have to hit the foot rail within about six inches since my ball was pinching it a little. Had to have some sidespin to get things started then it hit both side rails once, zee banking. It hit pretty close either side of the side pockets then again on the other side rails. Finished up coming off of the head rail and hitting the fifteen that was a bit over a diamond from the pocket and almost on the head rail. The ten balls or so on the table had to be laying about perfect to give him a path. One of his balls was at the far side pocket but I had a blocker between it and the pocket. Same deal with the head corner across the table.

I figured he could make a legal hit but no way could he pocket a ball. The crazy shot he pulled on the fifteen wasn't even a consideration for me. He spent a couple minutes holding his cue over the table back and forth so I knew it was no accident but even after I saw what he was trying I wasn't concerned until he hit the fifteen perfectly.

Johnny started our session with three called eightballs on the break that had been slow rolling in a side pocket the last two times. The whole bar had woken up and was urging me to quit him. I said I wanted to see that break again. This time the eight ball stopped within an inch of falling in the side.

I ran out that rack, broke and ran a couple three more on my home turf. In my backwoods little town I had never heard of Johnny Archer so I decided I had better let him shoot a little, didn't want to lose him! That is how the shot on the fifteen came about, funny as it sounds now I was afraid I would lose Johnny.

Johnny won three in a row, all on the break. I won the next dozen on home turf. I discovered that counting my winnings after the dealing was done. I kept trying to let him shoot once or twice a game but when he did I made sure he was locked down triple tight in these days before jump cues.

After making three eights on the break on a Valley barbox Johnny never made another ball. I didn't know how many eights on the break he could string and that shot on the fifteen remains the damnedest shot I have ever seen even today. Trick shot artists used to go eight rails around the table and try to stop on a hundred dollar bill to break a tie, I have never even heard of another eight rail zee kick.

Thinking about it, I could diagram about eight balls pretty closely, two to four more that weren't involved except as traffic would be mostly guess work. I remember the ones I thought would be involved and the ones that actually were. Two or three more balls were about halfway of the table but I would be putting them within a few inches or so.

Johnny scared my mule more with the zee kick than the eights called on the break but no denying it all had me pretty intimidated. Somebody mentions level of focus earlier in this thread. My level of focus in this match was as high as any time I have ever played.

If you know of diagramming software I will try to piece out the most important parts of Johnny's shot. No promises with strange software.

Hu
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Didn't read the whole thread. However, I noted this after the Open in November and I think it holds true for the latest PLP event. The 4" pockets have players moving the CB around differently. What would normally be 2/3 rail follow position routes. Have been swapped for single rail (possibly 2) draw shots.

Take any shot into the corner down the long rail for example, that then requires 3 rails to reach center table. That shot requires both follow and inside english. It's the inside english that adds the complexity. Consider that straight draw will get you back to center with either 1 rail or back/forth. When potting into 4"ers, you remove the variables. Side english is a variable. A convenient one, but sometimes unnecessary.
I think the fresh cloth dictates the shot choice more than the pocket tightness. You can even see the differences during some tournaments as the cloth breaks in. There are a lot of spin shots that just aren't possible on fresh cloth, so players will go with their 2nd choice just to get by. That may also be why the OP'er noted seeing players cross the shotline so often. They have to play more linearly due to the cloth.
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
the main thing they do which most cant, is think ahead more balls. this way they are playing position to set up for the balls the weak players aren't even looking at yet.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
I think the fresh cloth dictates the shot choice more than the pocket tightness. You can even see the differences during some tournaments as the cloth breaks in. There are a lot of spin shots that just aren't possible on fresh cloth, so players will go with their 2nd choice just to get by. That may also be why the OP'er noted seeing players cross the shotline so often. They have to play more linearly due to the cloth.
While you're certainly not wrong that fresh cloth also alters the game. What you should consider is that these pros in all these more major events are playing on fresh cloth. Day to day play changes somewhat due to wear but not to the extent that the ultra-tight 4" pockets have had them adjust across the board.

I'm not a pro, so I really can't argue this. It's just my observation tempered by exposure.
 
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