What would you do with this shot?

dr_dave

dr_dave

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I recently posted some videos showing different options for an end-of-game situation in 8-ball (or 9-ball). The 8-ball is frozen to the end rail close to the center diamond, and the cue ball is close to the center of the table. Here are the videos showing four shot options:

1.) NV B.11 - End-of-game rail cut shot offensive option

2.) NV B.12 - End-of-game bank shot offensive option

3.) NV B.13 - End-of-game kiss-back safety option

4.) NV B.14 - End-of-game cut shot safety option

Which option would you choose, and why?

Do you know of any other good options?

Do you have any comments, suggestions, or questions concerning any of the videos?

Thanks,
Dave

PS: If you cannot view YouTube videos (e.g., because your computers at work block YouTube access, as they probably should), I have an alternative interface, with direct access to video files, available at the top of my main video page.
 
Score

The conditions might affect what I do. Am I gambling in a race or ahead set? Is this a tournament? If so, Is it double hill or am I ahead by 4?


BUT, I feel like the shot is to bank it back to you AND play the speed of the object ball to hopefully come up right before the side pocked IF I miss.
Hopefully my opponent chokes on the long cut shot down the rail!

JMHO,
Drake
 
HIGH SPEED VIDEOS

Dr Dave-Welcome aboard. I have enjoyed your work for some time. To the degree that I have not told too many people about your site. I know it is not a secret-but the resources you have made available for study and viewing are amazing. I am a technical-approach player. I guess that's why I like this stuff. Thanks for your efforts and for making it available to those who share your curiosity-but don't have a big brain. Pretty neat sh*t.

You and Bob Jewett are a lot of help to all of us who enjoy (too much) trying to figure out WTF happens when balls collide.

Thanks again,

3railkick/Bill
 
I like the Double hit safety putting the cueball back to the end rail. This is one of the easiest shots to do compared to the others. The bank and cut shot you miss you will probabley sell out. If you can put the cueball and eightball table lengths away from eachother your forcing your opponent to make a great shot, and if he does then so be it he deserves it. But if the cueball isn't that straight on the eight I probabley would cut it using the rail first this also is not that hard of a shot especially if its on the rail.

Make my opponent earn it :D
 
Great videos Dave.

On considering which option I would choose, my first thought is that it would of course only be a completely fair like for like comparison of the four options if the cue ball and object ball were in exactly the same starting positions for all four options. You do move the cue ball starting position around for instructional purposes on some options. In my answer I am considering the balls to in each case be in the positions which you used in the first shot of the first video.

Given those starting ball positions only, out of the options provided I like no 4 the best and no 1 the second best.

You ask re any other options. Again considering only the starting position of the balls in the first position of the first shot in the first video I quite like the option of the reverse bank shot potting the 8 ball in the corner pocket to the shooter's left as he addresses the cue ball. I personally find that bank shot easier than the bank to the other corner which you executed but appreciate that others might have a completely different personal comfort level with those options. Mind you, the position of the cue ball is just about as close the longtitudinal centre line of the table than I would ever want it to be to choose that option. Any closer to the centre line and it's a no no.

Obviously shot selection would also be influenced in part by the ability level of my opponent.

Very good work. Thanks for sharing.
 
all are good options and worth spending time with at the table, only then could you be sure what you would do...

Banking, when there is a double kiss situation, you could always bank back to the otherside, in the video's you were banking back to the right, on the double kiss bank you could very well bank the 8 back to the left.. So again, good stuff! you have given players something to practice...

SPINDOKTOR
 
Another option

Good Morning Dr. Dave. Great videos.

Depending on the exact placement of the CB, there is another option that Buddy Hall explained in one of the magazines that he writes for. I think a straight on to about a 1 1/2 ball placement either direction from center would suffice.

Buddy attempts to bank the ball 3 rails in the side pocket. If the OB misses, the ball comes back up to approximately the same position as originally (center of the table by the end rail). The CB, stuck with a low/outside english, travels 4 rails and is positioned at the center of the table on the opposite end. This is a very effective shot and easy to master. Being stuck with a firm stroke, it leaves a lot of area for the CB/OB to end up in.

One other option that I just started playing around with is that when the balls are lined up straight or fairly close, a half ball hit moves the OB 2 diamonds (for a bank in the opposite corner pocket) when struck with center ball. While I would use this shot more in playing one pocket, I might use this option if the score of the match warranted its use.

Again, thank you for the great post.
 
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Do you have any comments, suggestions, or questions concerning any of the videos?
Click to expand...

Thanks, Dave - excellent stuff as always.

Video 1 (Cut Shot) - It's interesting to see in the slomo video how far from the object ball the cue ball hits. It looks like the sidespin on the CB moves it sideways 1/4 inch or more as it rolls along the rail toward the OB.

Video 2 (Bank) - A nit about your description: You say that, because the OB is on the rail, the rebound angle is "shortened" from the equal angle by the "lack of roll" on the OB, requiring an adjusted aim (as if for a wider bank). If by "lack of roll" you mean the OB doesn't roll along the rail with running english sidespin, then I agree (although I'd try to find a more clear way to say it). But if you mean a lack of forward roll because the OB is on the rail and hasn't the room to develop forward roll (the meaning I think you intend), then I disagree. Lack of forward roll doesn't shorten the angle from the "equal" angle (and wouldn't by itself require aim to be adjusted from the equal angle); it just doesn't widen the angle as forward roll would. In the shot on the video, I think the shortened rebound angle is entirely due to the lack of running english on the OB (i.e., sliding friction between the CB and rail), exacerbated by collision-induced and spin-induced "holdup" english imparted to the OB by the CB (which you also describe).

Thanks again for great stuff.

pj
chgo
 
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I like the kiss back saftey, it seemed to be the one shot that consistantly leaves your opponent in a tough spot. The others all seem to have more of a chance of leaving the 8 if you don't get the shot just right. I also like the double kiss saftey because to the untrained eye it can look like you played a bad shot and got lucky. I guess if you are trying to work someone this would lead them to believe you are not that good of a player. However I would never deceive anyone in that fashion ;)
 
additional bank option

Drake said:
The conditions might affect what I do. Am I gambling in a race or ahead set? Is this a tournament? If so, Is it double hill or am I ahead by 4?
Click to expand...
Good points. Personally, I would choose an offensive option (probably NV B.11 - End-of-game rail cut shot offensive option) if I were facing a tough opponent, especially if I were behind in a match. If I were facing a lesser opponent, I would probably choose one of the safeties (probably NV B.14 - End-of-game cut shot safety option, unless the CB were closer to the OB, in which case I would choose NV B.13 - End-of-game kiss-back safety option).

Drake said:
BUT, I feel like the shot is to bank it back to you AND play the speed of the object ball to hopefully come up right before the side pocked IF I miss.
Hopefully my opponent chokes on the long cut shot down the rail!
Click to expand...
I thought about this option, but it wasn't in my top 4. If I had included another alternative, it would have been this one. Good point about leaving a tough cut if you come up short.

Regards,
Dave
 
kiss-back safety foul

Neil said:
Good post Dave! Another option is to hit it thin on the other side. Barely moving the 8, and leaving the cueball at the other end of the table.

I don't like the soft bank leaving the 8 and the cb opposite each other on the long rail. It's too easy for him to put it back on the short rail and leave you a similar, but longer shot than you had to start with.

On the kiss-back safety, you have to make sure to hit it hard enough to get a rail with the cueball.

Personally, I would go for the bank shot. You have to go with your strengths.
Click to expand...
Thanks to everybody in the thread for the positive feedback and welcoming tone. I appreciate it. Online forum participants aren't always so nice.

Good point about NV B.13 - End-of-game kiss-back safety option. In fact, the second shot in the video is a foul. I didn't realize this until somebody on the BD CCB forum pointed it out.

FYI, my May'08 BD article, which will be out soon (and online here), illustrates and discusses the various shot options and gives more detail. I wish I had gotten all of the feedback in this thread before I wrote the article. The article could have been much better.

Regards,
Dave
 
kind remarks

3RAILKICK said:
HIGH SPEED VIDEOS

Dr Dave-Welcome aboard. I have enjoyed your work for some time. To the degree that I have not told too many people about your site. I know it is not a secret-but the resources you have made available for study and viewing are amazing. I am a technical-approach player. I guess that's why I like this stuff. Thanks for your efforts and for making it available to those who share your curiosity-but don't have a big brain. Pretty neat sh*t.

You and Bob Jewett are a lot of help to all of us who enjoy (too much) trying to figure out WTF happens when balls collide.

Thanks again,

3railkick/Bill
Click to expand...
Again, thanks to everybody for all of the kind remarks and supportive comments. I appreciate it. This helps motivate me to do more.

Regards,
Dave

PS: Since you are so nice, if there is anything you want to see in super-slow-motion that I don't already have posted in the HSV section of my website, let me know. I have another HSV filming session planned soon. The offer is open to others also.
 
memikey said:
Great videos Dave.

On considering which option I would choose, my first thought is that it would of course only be a completely fair like for like comparison of the four options if the cue ball and object ball were in exactly the same starting positions for all four options. You do move the cue ball starting position around for instructional purposes on some options. In my answer I am considering the balls to in each case be in the positions which you used in the first shot of the first video.

Given those starting ball positions only, out of the options provided I like no 4 the best and no 1 the second best.

You ask re any other options. Again considering only the starting position of the balls in the first position of the first shot in the first video I quite like the option of the reverse bank shot potting the 8 ball in the corner pocket to the shooter's left as he addresses the cue ball. I personally find that bank shot easier than the bank to the other corner which you executed but appreciate that others might have a completely different personal comfort level with those options. Mind you, the position of the cue ball is just about as close the longtitudinal centre line of the table than I would ever want it to be to choose that option. Any closer to the centre line and it's a no no.

Obviously shot selection would also be influenced in part by the ability level of my opponent.

Very good work. Thanks for sharing.
Click to expand...
Good points. I probably should have showed and discussed different (and consistent) CB positions for each alternative. Thank you for sharing your ideas.

Regards,
Dave
 
3-rail bank option

klockdoc said:
Good Morning Dr. Dave. Great videos.

Depending on the exact placement of the CB, there is another option that Buddy Hall explained in one of the magazines that he writes for. I think a straight on to about a 1 1/2 ball placement either direction from center would suffice.

Buddy attempts to bank the ball 3 rails in the side pocket. If the OB misses, the ball comes back up to approximately the same position as originally (center of the table by the end rail). The CB, stuck with a low/outside english, travels 4 rails and is positioned at the center of the table on the opposite end. This is a very effective shot and easy to master. Being stuck with a firm stroke, it leaves a lot of area for the CB/OB to end up in.
Click to expand...
Thank you for sharing this option. I hadn't thought of this one. I like it and look forward to practicing it some.

Regards,
Dave
 
laser-assisted reverse rail cut

Joe T said:
I have the two shots that Neil & Klockdoc mentioned in this clip of sticky situations but I do have a little help pulling them off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6HNoWyWM6Q
Click to expand...
Joe,

Thanks for the link. Very impressive. What are your odds for making that reverse rail cut shot without the magic lasers? :)

Dave
 
Joe T said:
I have the two shots that Neil & Klockdoc mentioned in this clip of sticky situations but I do have a little help pulling them off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6HNoWyWM6Q
Click to expand...


The last shot you show was a shot someone showed me when I was a complete beginner...It actually is not a very difficult shot...

When I was showed that shot, I was told..."your opponent will think you were attempting the bank and just got super lucky"

It not only puts you in a position to win that game...It puts your opponent in a position to go "Earl Strickland" on you for the next few games...;)
 
bank angle shortening

Patrick Johnson said:
Video 2 (Bank) - A nit about your description: You say that, because the OB is on the rail, the rebound angle is "shortened" from the equal angle by the "lack of roll" on the OB, requiring an adjusted aim (as if for a wider bank). If by "lack of roll" you mean the OB doesn't roll along the rail with running english sidespin, then I agree (although I'd try to find a more clear way to say it). But if you mean a lack of forward roll because the OB is on the rail and hasn't the room to develop forward roll (the meaning I think you intend), then I disagree. Lack of forward roll doesn't shorten the angle from the "equal" angle (and wouldn't by itself require aim to be adjusted from the equal angle); it just doesn't widen the angle as forward roll would. In the shot on the video, I think the shortened rebound angle is entirely due to the lack of running english on the OB (i.e., sliding friction between the CB and rail), exacerbated by collision-induced and spin-induced "holdup" english imparted to the OB by the CB (which you also describe).
Click to expand...
Thank you for your comments. Two effects shorten the rebound angle of the OB: the lack of forward roll of the OB (because it is frozen to the rail) and reverse spin transferred to the OB due to the outside cut (see the overlay text in the video). I think the spin effect is much larger in this shot, but I think both effects come into play. Check out NV 6.6 and NV 6.12. They illustrate the two effects separately. NV 6.6 is at a much higher speed, and other effects can come into play at the high speed, but the reduced roll of the OB is an important part of the high-speed effect.

Regards,
Dave
 
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