What's Good About A Good Stroke?

[ENGLISH!]

You set up the machine for the shot you want (planning), and then the machine accomplishes it without you (stroke). Of course both are necessary, but that doesn't mean the planning is part of the stroke - they're clearly distinguishable.

pj
chgo

As I have tried to suggest in an earlier post, I beleve Mr. Naji is placing the end result as the definition of a 'good stroke'.

Therefore, he is working it back in that he is selecting & planning the shot & the desired outcome. If then, after shooting the shot, the well thought out plan was not executed then the 'stroke was not good'. If the resuts were just as planned then it was a 'good stroke'.

Just mY take. Different definition, vernacular, & semantics?

In the machine analogoy, obviously any failure would be due to improper planning or dialing up the 'wrong' stroke for the execution of the plan, which would be of human failing & not that of the machine.

Regards,

 

[Tony_in_MD]

I actually saw the merit in CJ's 'touch of inside' and I am continuing to work on it to to put it into my game.

However, the latest stuff he is posting.....hammer grips, eastern philosophy, the fact that he never answers a question directly but relies on cute pictures or tongue in cheek comments, make me really wonder what he is up too.

Sorry but I have never been one to hang totally on someones word, and when someone makes statements that are blatantly wrong, they need to be called out on it.

Like this one "...a strong grip is needed for a good stroke......." CJ

 

[nobcitypool]

The SEE system isn''t for everybody. While I used it enough to verify that it does indeed work, I prefer the method I currently use. The rest of his DVD I thought was informative. Not too sure some of that material is on Dr. Daves site or not, or even someone elses DVD's. Wouldn't surprise me if it is. But, that does not mean he just plagiarized someone elses material. I have "invented" systems that I had never seen anywhere before, yet others have found out the same thing I did before I did. There is very little "new" material out there anymore. But that doesn't mean it was copied per say. If one can get something new to them off a DVD that works for them, then they have the price of the DVD right there.

Neil, I played around with the SEE concepts enough to see they are valid. My issue is, if I can somehow sight a line from the shadow to the center or edge of the OB, step into it and get down in my stance without losing it, why not just use fractional aiming, ghost ball or SAM? I read one review where the user said after 6 months of substantial effort, he's starting to get it. I think 6 months of substantial effort would allow him to have gotten just about any system.

All that's really not my point though. My point was that people seem reluctant to speak their minds here with these types of topics and I think that is to the detriment of many. I thoroughly enjoyed Jerry B's and Dr Dave's DVD's, I obviously think Scott Lee is a great instructor. So it's not like I find fault with everything. Just because people offer critique or disagree doesn't mean it has to be confrontational.

 

[Neil]

Neil, I played around with the SEE concepts enough to see they are valid. My issue is, if I can somehow sight a line from the shadow to the center or edge of the OB, step into it and get down in my stance without losing it, why not just use fractional aiming, ghost ball or SAM? I read one review where the user said after 6 months of substantial effort, he's starting to get it. I think 6 months of substantial effort would allow him to have gotten just about any system.

All that's really not my point though. My point was that people seem reluctant to speak their minds here with these types of topics and I think that is to the detriment of many. I thoroughly enjoyed Jerry B's and Dr Dave's DVD's, I obviously think Scott Lee is a great instructor. So it's not like I find fault with everything. Just because people offer critique or disagree doesn't mean it has to be confrontational.

I totally agree. For us, knowing some of the other systems, See is harder to learn. However, for someone that doesn't know a system, it might be just the key for them.

 

[ENGLISH!]

You won't let the guy post without trying to discredit him. That's my point. I'd like to hear what he has to say because he's been to the top of the mountain. The people nipping at his legs don't have his experiences yet they tell him to put a sock in it.

Geno and Stan took too much heat. So why are we doing it to CJ, too?

As far as my game and your advice about how to improve...I ran a 131 back in the 80's and ran a dozen or more centuries when I played straights. I consider myself an open level player. When I played regularly I couldn't get a spot from many pros for the cash. So please stop trying to instruct me on what I need to learn about the game. Maybe I might know a little something. I don't need a hero, btw. That's for people who don't believe in themselves.

Best,
Mike

Mike,

I agree. That's the point.

'They' always talk about 'most'. Well 'most' are mediocre. Many here, at AZB, are at different levels above that of mediocre & would like to find whatever it might be that might take one to the next level. CJ's level is Championship level.

They use the term 'facts'. Well today's facts were many times yesterday's fantasies. A new experiment might just yield different 'facts'.

I seriously doubt that a closed mind was ever beneficial to anyone. Where would we be if not for experimentation. A closed mind simply says 'that can not be true because the facts say it is not so'. Well the facts 'of the day' said that the earth was flat.

They protest under the guise of protection. Grown people should not be 'proected' by 'vigilante censorship', but should be allowed to decide for themselve as adults.

If SVB says pump your elbow against your side 3 times before you get down to break, guess what I'm going to try. If it works, then it is a fact even if only a physcological one.

If AZB is only for beginners & intermediate level players, then perhaps it should be stated as such & the rest of us can move on to higher ground. ( I'm fairly sure I will be TOLD to move on.)

One size does not fit all. If it does not fit oneself, one should not tell everyone else to not try it on, because it might just fit others 'perfectly'.

I believe & feel that, We ALL Should Live & Let Live. Persecution is never a good thing. Question? Yes. Persecute? No, and... don't persecute those that question you & your 'facts'. To do so is of the highest of hypocricy.

Best Regards,

 

[Slasher]

We ALL Should Live & Let Live[/B], persecution is never a good thing.

Best Regards,

How ironic given that you would have us censored by a popularity poll.

 

[CJ Wiley]

There are many people with weak grips that have great strokes.

I actually saw the merit in CJ's 'touch of inside' and I am continuing to work on it to to put it into my game.

However, the latest stuff he is posting.....hammer grips, eastern philosophy, the fact that he never answers a question directly but relies on cute pictures or tongue in cheek comments, make me really wonder what he is up too.

Sorry but I have never been one to hang totally on someones word, and when someone makes statements that are blatantly wrong, they need to be called out on it.

Like this one "...a strong grip is needed for a good stroke......." CJ

There are many people with weak grips that have great strokes. The hammer analogy and the "strong grip" is only in reference to my personal style. I was clear that I believe there's 3 styles. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

We have had talks about Archer, Varner, Hall, Eberle, Hillbilly, Kid Delicious, Genomachino, Stan Shuffett and others on here. None of them caught any flak like CJ is. With the possible exceptions of Geno and Stan. But, they explained well what they were teaching, and why, and the results showed for them. Why? Because of what was provided for info. Sometimes questionable, but mainly solid info. What CJ has been providing is mainly nonsense and sales talk you and some others are falling for with no substance.[/QUOTE]

Bitter "B" Player - How Cute

 

[Scott Lee]

Rick...You are such a nit. Who said Azb is "only for beginners and intermediate level players"? You, again, twist my words to serve your own inadequate purpose. What I said was that the GIGANTIC majority of members here fall into that catagory, and deserve information that will potentially benefit most of them in the best possible manner.

As far as your second sentence here, I believe you plagurized that from me. You actually quoted me in one of your innane posts, that actually agreed with me, and made sense...for once.

NOW...you can move on.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

If AZB is only for beginners & intermediate level players, then perhaps it should be stated as such & the rest of us can move on to higher ground. ( I'm fairly sure I will be TOLD to move on.)

One size does not fit all,

 

[Scott Lee]

CJ...You know, as bright as you claim to be, apparently you cannot even figure out (after more than 1000 posts in very little time) how to quote someone correctly, so that it identifies who the OP is (in this case, Neil). Spend some time with it...it is neither difficult to do or understand how to do it. Neil is neither a B player, nor bitter. He communicates well, plays well, and is a well-respected poster and teacher.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

We have had talks about Archer, Varner, Hall, Eberle, Hillbilly, Kid Delicious, Genomachino, Stan Shuffett and others on here. None of them caught any flak like CJ is. With the possible exceptions of Geno and Stan. But, they explained well what they were teaching, and why, and the results showed for them. Why? Because of what was provided for info. Sometimes questionable, but mainly solid info. What CJ has been providing is mainly nonsense and sales talk you and some others are falling for with no substance.

Bitter "B" Player - How Cute

 

[Slasher]

We have had talks about Archer, Varner, Hall, Eberle, Hillbilly, Kid Delicious, Genomachino, Stan Shuffett and others on here. None of them caught any flak like CJ is. With the possible exceptions of Geno and Stan. But, they explained well what they were teaching, and why, and the results showed for them. Why? Because of what was provided for info. Sometimes questionable, but mainly solid info. What CJ has been providing is mainly nonsense and sales talk you and some others are falling for with no substance.

Bitter "B" Player - How Cute[/QUOTE]

Now we're getting somewhere.

 

[ENGLISH!]

So you would like everyone on here to shut up and conform to popular opinion if that were the consensus.
Sorry bud, aint gonna happen, just because it's popular don't mean it's right.

Slasher,

Not at all. Question? Yes. Persecute? No. Insult? No.

And... your statement I highlighted is certainly a two(2) way street.

Regards,

 

[Slasher]

Slasher,

Not at all. Question? Yes. Persecute? No. Insult? No.

And... your statement I highlighted is certainly a two(2) way street.

Regards,

Most questions were met with ambiguity and misdirection and as you can see by the recent posts have degenerated into personal attacks and belittling of their contributions based on their skill level.

 

[ENGLISH!]

How ironic given that you would have us censored by a popularity poll.

How would a thumbs up or down by the AZB general public regarding a specific post 'censor' anyone?

Your statement seems to be irrational. For the record, who are 'us'?

 

[Slasher]

How would a thumbs up or down by the AZB general public regarding a specific post 'censor' anyone?

Your statement seems to be irrational. For the record, who is 'us'?

You suggested an opinion poll would silence the critics.
"Us" are few of the contributors to this forum that are not easily led.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Bitter "B" Player - How Cute

Is this the temperament that will inspire the US Mosconi Cup team?

pj
chgo

 

[Neil]

We have had talks about Archer, Varner, Hall, Eberle, Hillbilly, Kid Delicious, Genomachino, Stan Shuffett and others on here. None of them caught any flak like CJ is. With the possible exceptions of Geno and Stan. But, they explained well what they were teaching, and why, and the results showed for them. Why? Because of what was provided for info. Sometimes questionable, but mainly solid info. What CJ has been providing is mainly nonsense and sales talk you and some others are falling for with no substance.

Bitter "B" Player - How Cute[/QUOTE]

Bitter? Yes, I guess I am. I am because this forum is one of the very few places one can go to learn solid info for free. You, by your own words, don't care about that at all. You aren't interested in the least in providing solid info, and have yet to back up anything you claim with anything other than I am a champion, so do it.

Look at post #625, that right there is the problem. Some don't care what you post, they are going to try it anyways. Even if it is only a temporary psychological fix. Just because a champion said it. You might as well tell them to buy a new cue, it has the same temporary effect on their game.

Many of us want this place to stay a place where one can reliably go to get good solid info. You don't care about that at all, your only interest is to get your name back out there, and make DVD sales. Your posts show that you aren't really interested in actually helping people. You never answer any questions to anyones satisfaction. You take your status as a previous champion and use it to benefit only yourself, not others. As long as someone says you helped them at least temporarily, you are happy. You don't care about all the others that you might be hurting with the stuff you put out. You have even gone as far as to try and discredit the actual proven science of the game because you didn't know about it.

Bitter? Yes. Bitter that a champion would come on here soley as a salesman under the guise of an instructor. A salesman that only cares about the sale, and the heck with what happens afterwards.

Bitter about being a B player? I'm not, so why should I be? Bitter that I'm not better than I am? Not in the least. Why should I be? There's only room at the top for a few, as you know. Which is why you don't play anymore. Other than those few, there is nothing there. All you are doing is conning people to sell DVD's, and I and others take that as a great offense to this forum. So, as long as you or anyone else puts out nonsense, we will be all over you. You put out solid info, we may disagree, but we will back you. You want to call yourself an instructor, then instruct.

 

[naji]

This sounds serious, can you post a video of you shooting if your comfortable with that.

No need for video, take this example, Cue is elevated near the rail, you put top RH english on CB, you shoot soft with nice follow through stroke, where would the CB direction be?? certainly not the same direction as the Cue..if you factor in deflection and swerve..

 

[ENGLISH!]

You suggested an opinion poll would silence the critics.
"Us" are few of the contributors to this forum that are not easily led.

Slasher,

Miscommunication clarification.

I did not mean to suggest silencing anyone. I merely meant to imply that peer opinion can sometimes put things into perspective for one self & make them re-think their position.

I was thinking more along the lines of a civility bases than information related. It was just a thought, perhaps a bad idea, but applause & boos in public do carry some weight.

As to 'us', we're in the same club. Although, perhaps in different charters.

Regards,

Rick

 

[Slasher]

No need for video, take this example, Cue is elevated near the rail, you put top RH english on CB, you shoot soft with nice follow through stroke, where would the CB direction be?? certainly not the same direction as the Cue..if you factor in deflection and swerve..

Just to clarify, elevated butt or level cue with the tip at the top of the ball?