What's The Ruling?

Some of you here may know Ford... as an aside, he was reffing the match between Efren and Earl when Efren shot The Shot Heard Around the World... the famous Z-shot.

Well, while practicing for league last night, I asked Ford what he would do if he were reffing the match and Rude's situation happened. He told me that he would definitely rule it as a foul... and give BIH to the opponent... fwiw.

Where's Rude?... and the answer???
 
Until the player contacts the cueball with the tip (the rules say with forward motion), it can be moved anywhere, including the pocket, as long as another foul (any contact with the other balls on the table) is not committed.

It is as if the player took the cueball out of the pocket after the scratch, then placed it (or dropped it) back into the pocket... he therefore would be able to get it back out, place it on the table, and shoot away.

No way is this a foul as described.
 
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cigardave said:
Some of you here may know Ford... as an aside, he was reffing the match between Efren and Earl when Efren shot The Shot Heard Around the World... the famous Z-shot.

Well, while practicing for league last night, I asked Ford what he would do if he were reffing the match and Rude's situation happened. He told me that he would definitely rule it as a foul... and give BIH to the opponent... fwiw.

Where's Rude?... and the answer???
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Then Ford should probably forget the 90's and move on to this millennium ;)

Greets,
Mikko, referee in European Pool Championships 2007
 
I'd say no foul.

Similar scenario, picking up the cue ball in a BIH situ, you may have no choice in moving an object ball. While picking the ball up and a touch..... there is no foul, only while placing the ball into position.

What is the LO's take on this?
 
Mr. Wilson said:
... Similar scenario, picking up the cue ball in a BIH situ, you may have no choice in moving an object ball. While picking the ball up and a touch..... there is no foul, only while placing the ball into position. ...
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If the cue ball needs to be picked up from a tight situation, the player with BIH should ask the person who is acting as the referee -- his opponent who just fouled -- to pick up the cue ball and hand it to him. In general, a player who fouls when no referee is present should acknowledge the foul by picking the cue ball up and handing it or rolling it to his opponent.

Similarly, when a ball needs to be spotted, the non-shooter should do the spotting.
 
jay helfert said:
Once the cue ball has been placed on the table, it is in play. In a pro tournament, this would be called a foul. Of course we all know that in the esteemed wisdom of the BCA rules committee, many old (and good) rules have been changed. When they decided that you didn't win if you made the eight on the break, they lost me forever. One of the hardest things to do in pool is make the eight on the break. So why penalize someone who makes it. HELLO BCA!!
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They place the CB and then reposition it all the time on WPBA matches...I would say that it has to be struck with the tip of the cue in a stroking motion for it to be a foul...
 
Sorry guys, been so busy at work-

The ruling is that when adjusting the cue-ball, you are acting within the entitlements of Ball-in-Hand hence the cue-ball is not live. Interestingly, the APA rulebook does not cover such a scenario.

In my opinion, interpreting a rule is similar to interpreting a document such as the Constitution. It's important to know where a set of rules derives from and to also know the meaning of given situations. The APA Rules obviously derived from the BCA Rulebook. What complicates things is that both have evolved since and have taken on lives of their own. However, this is definitely an instance where a general understanding of the BCA rules is necessary.

There was an argument in New York City involving two APA teams and it was assessed that all scenarios where the cue-ball goes in a pocket or lands on the floor is a foul which is obviously ridiculous. The rule was referencing live scenarios where the player is in the act of shooting - NOT ball-in-hand situations where the player is exercising their right to move the cue-ball.

There are fouls that CAN be called there but those fouls are specifically outlines and frequently involve disturbance of other balls. Dropping chalk on a cue-ball even if the player has ball-in-hand is a foul but since they are not in the act of placement (the cue-ball has been placed), it's considered live.
 
Nostroke said:
Im too tired to read the rules but id call it a scratch. He caused it to go in there.
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I agree with Davey. I'm way too tired. BUt according to my understanding, the cue ball is always live so if the incoming player takes ball in hand and accidentally scratches, it is still a scratch nonetheless.
 
pharaoh68 said:
I agree with Davey. I'm way too tired. BUt according to my understanding, the cue ball is always live so if the incoming player takes ball in hand and accidentally scratches, it is still a scratch nonetheless.
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Well sir, you would have a tough time selling it. In my opinion, fouls should be reserved for obvious situations. If the cue-ball goes in a pocket, a ball fails to hit a rail, etc., these are obvious (for the most part). When you get into scenarios involving Ball-In-Hand, you really need to be able to pull out a rule that specifies that this is a foul, otherwise, your argument should be inherently weak. When the player is not in the act of shooting, you really need it in print to call foul.
 
mjantti said:
I don't think so. If you place the cueball on the table, what difference does it make ruleswise ? You are able to pick it up again of course and move it. There is no rule which says that if you put the cueball on the bed of the table, it is "in play".

Only thing you are not allowed to do is to use the cueball as a measurement device to figure out for instance if there's enough room between an object ball and a cushion.

And I'm under the impression that BCA uses WPA rules, am I right ?
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You don't think it's in play if you knock it in the pocket with your cue? If that's not a foul, there aren't any fouls.
 
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tiptoety said:
Say what??? what resource is that from?

BTW, weren't we supposed to have the verdict at 5pm????
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If the cue ball is not in play when it's on the table, when is it in play?
 
Bob Jewett said:
I believe it is from "Jay's Own Rules." So far as I know, those are different from the official rules for most tournaments.

I recall one tournament when Allen Hopkins had ball in hand. He put the cue ball down for a shot and took some warm-ups and decided he better shoot something else. He picked the cue ball up and set it up for another shot. The idiot ref called a foul, saying that Hopkins had lost the ability to reposition the cue ball when he got down on the shot. I don't remember how the "earnest conversation" came out, but I don't think that ref should have been reffing.
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The problem with "my rules" is they make sense. I would not have called a foul on Allen in the above situation. He has every right to relocate the cue ball with ball in hand. But if he had hit the cue ball with any part of his cue and it dropped in a pocket, I would definitely call a foul. Wouldn't you? Or isn't that one of "Bob's rules"?

I'm not surprised that a BCA ref made that call on Allen. I have seen some of the most atrocious calls made at the BCA tournaments in years past by their highly trained referees. Wonder who trained them? You wouldn't know would you Bob?
 
cigardave said:
Some of you here may know Ford... as an aside, he was reffing the match between Efren and Earl when Efren shot The Shot Heard Around the World... the famous Z-shot.

Well, while practicing for league last night, I asked Ford what he would do if he were reffing the match and Rude's situation happened. He told me that he would definitely rule it as a foul... and give BIH to the opponent... fwiw.

Where's Rude?... and the answer???
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Thanks Ford. And that's why he was working with me on so many events. He's a damn good ref.
 
BillYards said:
Until the player contacts the cueball with the tip (the rules say with forward motion), it can be moved anywhere, including the pocket, as long as another foul (any contact with the other balls on the table) is not committed.

It is as if the player took the cueball out of the pocket after the scratch, then placed it (or dropped it) back into the pocket... he therefore would be able to get it back out, place it on the table, and shoot away.

No way is this a foul as described.
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If this is a BCA/WPA rule, it sucks. This has nothing to do with what year it is. It has to do with the integrity of the game. I have to wonder who these people are that make up these stupid rules. Did they ever actually play pool or are they just observers?

What I've seen happen over the years is they have taken a simple but workable set of rules and complicated it to try to fit any and all situations that may arise. In so doing they have made the rules cumbersome and do not facilitate the play of a match.

By the way, the BCA is a trade organization. Why are they making rules for professional pool anyway? It's an interesting contradiction at work here. An association of manufacturers that have done little over the years to support professional pool dictating how the game should be played.

They put on one tournament a year with some dinky prize money, and think they can tell the players how to play THEIR game. Several times I beseeched these millionaires to raise the prize money from $80,000 per division to a measley $100,000 and met with deaf ears. The prize money has remained the same at the BCA Open for ten years now. I even offered to throw in the first $1,000 of the $40,000 increase and was met by silence.

Shame on them and shame on the damn rules committee. That's my two cents plus change. I am no longer a member of the BCA, after 15 years. This is as of 2005.
 
Hmm, I don't play 8 ball and I know there are about as many different rules for that game as there are players, but for those who believe that the CB falling in the pocket was a scratch, consider this....


Lets say the player placed the cue ball dead center in the middle of the table and then adjusted it with the side of his ferrule. Isn't not hitting a ball or a cushion as much a foul as pocketing the cue ball? So if he moved it with the stick in the same manner as he did while pocketing it, and the CB didn't hit another ball and cushion, then that also must be a foul.
 
Craig Fales said:
They place the CB and then reposition it all the time on WPBA matches...I would say that it has to be struck with the tip of the cue in a stroking motion for it to be a foul...
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I have no problem with repositioning the cue ball. I have a problem with a player's cue stick coming into contact with the cue ball and knocking it into a pocket. In my not so humble opinion, if this ain't a foul, there are no fouls.
 
3andstop said:
Hmm, I don't play 8 ball and I know there are about as many different rules for that game as there are players, but for those who believe that the CB falling in the pocket was a scratch, consider this....


Lets say the player placed the cue ball dead center in the middle of the table and then adjusted it with the side of his ferrule. Isn't not hitting a ball or a cushion as much a foul as pocketing the cue ball? So if he moved it with the stick in the same manner as he did while pocketing it, and the CB didn't hit another ball and cushion, then that also must be a foul.
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You can move the cue ball with the side of your shaft on BIH. It's been played that way for years. What you can't do is move it into another ball (FOUL!), or into a pocket (FOUL!). Do you see the difference in the above two scenarios?
 
jay helfert said:
You can move the cue ball with the side of your shaft on BIH. It's been played that way for years. What you can't do is move it into another ball (FOUL!), or into a pocket (FOUL!). Do you see the difference in the above two scenarios?
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Jay, Bob, Group, I have been biting my tongue since I 1st read this post. I find i very interesting because I had a very similiar situation happen to myself back in 1993/4? at the BCA 8-Ball Championships.

Here is what happened.....

My opponent scratched an I received BIH. I was walking around the table trying to see my way to run out. As I was walking around the table I was sliding the CB along the top rail, when I came to the side pocket the plastic on the pocket cought the CB and it slipped out of my hand and into the pocket.


What would your ruling be on that ?

Also, would your ruling be different if in the same scenario I simply just dropped the CB on the floor ?
 
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