What's Wrong With Pool?

[cajunfats]

A Point to Ponder

One of the things IMHO that is very wrong with Pool is there are TOO MANY, Pool Organization. Example is in Phoenix Arizona, where have at last count from the latest issue of the local Pool rag, not less than EIGHT LEAGUE Organizations. BCA, TAP, ACS, APA, UPA, Arizona Pool League, TAP, and VNEA that are list in the rag. All of there league operators are each trying to attract players to their leagues. Think Pool IMHO would work better if it was all under one governing organization.

Cowboy,may I offer a few points to ponder,as your statement is a question that merits a serious answer. There are a large number of leagues as you state above. They are Independent of each other,yet they may "sanction" their league with a National Organization to participate at a higher level than just locally. This is a huge benefit to the player(s) that wishes to play more competitively. Whatever local awards the league has for players who would never go beyond local is up to the leadership of that league. Yes,sometimes competition for players can be fierce,and I admit,a little ugly between league operators. Having a singular authority for Amateur Pool would help in these matters. In the past,the Trade Association known as the Billiard Congress of America was "Unofficially" such a place. Any League Operator from any organization could call and get a non biased answer in regards to all questions posed by that league. Having no power to "enforce" decisions at the local level always left the responsibility to those leagues involved. In order for any of the leagues you mentioned in your area,all of them would have to recognize an organization that they would Trust to be as fair and impartial to Large Leagues like VNEA,APA,BCAPL just as it would be to Smaller Leagues like the Arizona Pool League,and any of your other independent leagues. Will they have that Trust? Since the BCA decided their trade mission was the focus of their existence,players have a void to fill. Also,the Men's Professional Pool Players are in the midst of crisis because they can't agree on a singular organization. Keep the faith though,because there may be hope on the horizon. Good Question.

 

[dardusm]

I haven't read the entire thread, so someone may have already pointed this out. For the most part, pool in not a spectator sport. People want to play pool. Not many people want to watch other people play pool. Go to pretty much any tournament, and the players outnumber the spectators. Take away the wives and girlfriends, and the crowd gets really small, really fast.

I love this game as much as anyone. But I love playing it. I don't love watching others play it. Yes, I will go to a big event and watch some of the top players, but it may be only with one eye on the match. Pool will never draw large crowds of spectators, and thus, is never going to gain much appeal to sponsors who want a good return on their investment.

Take the game for what it is...a game people enjoy playing.. It's nearly impossible to make a living playing it, but it is very easy to enjoy yourself every time you approach a table.

Steve

I've always enjoyed watching good players play the game. It gives me a chance to watch how to certain players will play a shot or how they line up. If there is a player that I've read about or seen their name from tournament results, I try to watch them play a few games. It's part of the total enjoyment of the game for myself.

 

[pooltchr]

I've always enjoyed watching good players play the game. It gives me a chance to watch how to certain players will play a shot or how they line up. If there is a player that I've read about or seen their name from tournament results, I try to watch them play a few games. It's part of the total enjoyment of the game for myself.

Yeah, but you are a serious player. How many league players down at your local pool room feel that way? Why aren't they out watching the regional tournaments or even the WPBA? They can't get more than a few hundred to show up, if they are lucky.

Don't get me wrong. I can appreciate watching good players battle it out on the table, but if I were watching a match, and someone asked me if I wanted to go play some on the other side of the room, I'm going to play. I consider myself a fairly knowledgable player, so I can appreciate watching a good match, and even at that, an hour or so is plenty of spectator time for me. The average player might be more like about 10 minutes before they are losing interest. You are watching to try and learn something. That's a different motivation than most people would have. Most people want to be entertained, and watching pool doesn't necessarily meet that criteria for the general public.

Steve

 

[Maniac]

The only thing that is wrong is the Americas best players outside top 5 cant make a living because there is no money in pool. For example my friend Chris Bartram is top 20 in america and he is quitting pool for awhile to concentrate on poker. IF there was nothing wrong with pool he wouldnt have to do this.....

He don't HAVE to do that either. He could do like millions of other blue-blooded Americans do everyday........GET A JOB!!!!! Now, I've got nothing against Chris Bartram or any other professional poolplayer, but I couldn't care less if any of them ever made another dime at pool. I also wouldn't care if any pro football, baseball, basketball, hockey, golf, etc.(the list is long) player ever saw another payday. If I want to see a good football, baseball, etc. game I can watch a good high school or college game and get my fix. Paydays in professional sports (the majority of them) are nothing short of ridiculous.

And not only can I enjoy watching a good match at my local poolhall/bar for FREE, I can also PARTICIPATE in one for next to nothing. So, do I need professional pool? No. Hell no! In fact, if every pool table in the world except my home table disappeared from the face of the Earth, I'm still going to play and enjoy pool for as long as I live. Even if I have to make my own equipment (as there would no longer be billiard supply outlets).

Yes Jay, you are so right. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with pool!!!

Maniac

 

[dardusm]

Yeah, but you are a serious player. How many league players down at your local pool room feel that way? Why aren't they out watching the regional tournaments or even the WPBA? They can't get more than a few hundred to show up, if they are lucky.

Don't get me wrong. I can appreciate watching good players battle it out on the table, but if I were watching a match, and someone asked me if I wanted to go play some on the other side of the room, I'm going to play. I consider myself a fairly knowledgable player, so I can appreciate watching a good match, and even at that, an hour or so is plenty of spectator time for me. The average player might be more like about 10 minutes before they are losing interest. You are watching to try and learn something. That's a different motivation than most people would have. Most people want to be entertained, and watching pool doesn't necessarily meet that criteria for the general public.

Steve

You are right. The majority of casual players really don't want to watch pool and it can be boring. But espn does keep showing it, so there must be some appeal otherwise you wouldn't see it at all on the tv.

They run a regional type tournament at Shooters (Mid-West 9-ball tour) in Olathe KS every 3 or 4 months and they actually have a decent turnout of spectators. I do understand what you are saying though. Pool isn't a great spectator sport but it could be better. It's in the marketing of the game and the players. In England, snooker is watched by housewives that might never play the game but enjoy rooting for players, etc.

 

[juegabillar]

But, I can tell you that if I win the lottery big time, I am building my own indoor stadium for pool and the stakes will be high, year after year after year.

As I have also said many times: a lottery winner pool fanatic is the only way pool is going to take off.

and what would be your return on the investment?

 

[Scott Lee]

Excuse me FullTilt, but you're talking out of your ass here. Ewa Lawrence has put in DECADES of professional playing, hundreds of media interviews aimed at uplifting the sport, several stints as a leader of the womens' professional organization, authored instuctional texts, done countless exhibitions, and on and on and on. Just like Jeanette Lee, Ewa has laid the groundwork for countless new up and coming women pros to hopefully be able to make a living from pool...and like Jeanette, she deserves every dollar that she can command. She is very good looking, intelligent, articulate, and has an astute business acumen. Few of those things can be said of very many male pros...including Mr. Bartram (no offense to Chris). You're just plain off-base here, imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

A business man I deal poker to told me he hired Ewa Laurance to do exhibitions at a trade show of some sort and she was paid 5200 a day and he told me that was standard for what she gets to do one...Are you kidding me I said and he replied I am serious..WOW!!! She cant even spell pool and gets what a guy might get for winning a big tourney in the USA...

 

[Fatboy]

I see thread after thread questioning why Pool is not somehow a bigger and more popular sport than it is. Why isn't there a pro tour? Why don't the pros make more money? Why aren't they rich and famous like Baseball and Basketball players? Why isn't there more Pool on TV? Why are so many poolrooms closing? All this like there is something inherently wrong with the sport of Pool.

There isn't anything "wrong" with Pool. It is only the perception that it should somehow be better than it is that is wrong. I like Pool no matter what, and it's okay for me just the way it is! I still enjoy playing just as much now as I did when I was a kid learning the game. A good shot still feels like a good shot. If it never changes in my lifetime that's fine with me. I've had a good time, made lots of friends and made a decent living with this game. What more can you ask for?

Pool is not going anywhere! It's going to be around for a very, very long time. I'm CERTAIN more people play the game worldwide today than ever before. I'm glad that we have this great game to amuse, entertain and challenge us. My answer to all those questions about what's wrong with Pool is this - NOTHING!

I agree with you Jay for the most part, its changed some since 85 when i started going to the pool room everyday. i could make a list of the differences i have seen. But i'm certain that they have already been noted in this thread.

I will however mention what I see as the biggest change in pool from 1985 that I have witnessed (insert drum roll) is pool is more social than before. I suppose its because of the internet I have met a lot of my best friends right here. Pool tournments seem more festive now<----that sounds gay, but its true.


I think its because of 3 things first is the longer your in the game the more people you know(like Jay), the internet(message boards (AZB)/streaming(TAR) creates the biggest rail ever in the history, and lastly Phones-25 years ago it was like 75 cents or a $1 for long distance. So if I wanted to call up Shannon Daulton for banking advice it might be $10-$20, now days I can call Shannon for free. That means he will call me more often and I will call him more often. So when I see him at a tournment (Holding Court ) I can go up to him and bust his chops or what ever simply because we now days can all communicate with each other for almost nothing.

When I go to a pool tournment now days compaired to 1987 its much more social and fun, its like a reunion almost. Sure not everyone is friends with each other but it isnt cold like it used to be, back then we had fun too. But now when I go to a pool tournemnt now I see people I know not a 1000 familiar faces, Now days I know who alot of people and who they are, their name etc. But back in 1987 i would just see alot of people but never talked to them-just faces in the pool room. I didnt know where anyone lived, I didnt have their phone number-but I knew I would see them at tournemnts or in the pool room everyday for years-yet never knew their name's.


i have good insight in this because I dropped out of pool for about 11-12years, I just played at home to keep instroke, but I had other interests and completely ignored pool, That gap of time made the contrast of pool now vs 20 years ago super clear to me.


It would be great if pool got traction and became a huge sport with the pros making millions. Thats my goal, When I got back into pool and saw the social changes I liked that alot. I said "I want to give pool a shot in the arm" right here on AZ-then like a year later I lost 95% of my income, So I cant do what I will do when I'm making $$$ again. I want to set up a bank account with a pre-determind amount of $$$, outline what that $$ will be spent on, a business plan. Then present it to the world and let nature take its course. Soon as I have a steady income and restored my losses of this past 2 years, i'm putting pool into business. Actually The fact i'm not able to do it know is good, within 2-3 years I should be able to create the biz plan, write the misson statment and propely fund it-with open book accounting to all the players at their request. I will be the right age, and at a point in my personal life to make this happen. I give everyone my word on that. Love me or hate me I'm going to do the best for pool I can do adding $$$ is the strongest move-thats what i'm all about.


There has been 3 tragic deaths in our pool family in the last couple months, I never felt so much grief and emotion like that years ago because I just didnt know the people in our pool world as well. So now the losses are closer to me and I think alot of others too.


Best
eric

 

[Cameron Smith]

Maybe you're on to something there... I mean, the easy answer people give is that pool is boring to watch, but there's lots more activity than when we see some people quietly sitting around the table holding cards in their hand. And even a highly active sport like mixed martial arts can get boring to watch at times.

So really it's not the game itself, it's probably just marketing. The right marketing can make random squabbles between 4 roommates into a popular TV show with lots of sponsors.

Exactly. The truth is, there are more boring (in concept) sports on tv with larger attendance and more sponsors. You just have to make people care.

People don't watch the sport, they watch the participants. Case in point, look at PGA tour event viewing figures when the star players aren't competing. Compare that to a field with Phil Mickleson and Tiger Woods involved. The hardcore fans will always watch, but the large audience that draws the sponsors want to watch Tiger, Vijay, Phil, Ernie etc.

But there aren't ANY pool stars, not as the public understands it. It's tough to hold the interest of the casual enthusiast if he has no one to root for.

Sell the players, then you sell the sport. Basic marketing.

P.S. Look at the UFC, the Ultimate Fighter is an incredible marketing tool that serves to promote new fighters, established ones AND a pay per view.

 

[FullTilt]

Excuse me FullTilt, but you're talking out of your ass here. Ewa Lawrence has put in DECADES of professional playing, hundreds of media interviews aimed at uplifting the sport, several stints as a leader of the womens' professional organization, authored instuctional texts, done countless exhibitions, and on and on and on. Just like Jeanette Lee, Ewa has laid the groundwork for countless new up and coming women pros to hopefully be able to make a living from pool...and like Jeanette, she deserves every dollar that she can command. She is very good looking, intelligent, articulate, and has an astute business acumen. Few of those things can be said of very many male pros...including Mr. Bartram (no offense to Chris). You're just plain off-base here, imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

All i was saying is she cant beat a local shortstop at pool and never could and she is getting 5k a day to do trick shots...She is professional and attractive good for her get paid thats nice if people will pay it

 

[AtLarge]

... she cant beat a local shortstop at pool and never could ...

Perhaps you're simply uninformed.

http://www.strikingviking.com/titles-achievements/titles-achievements.html​

That doesn't mean she could beat all local shortstops, but surely some, right?

 

[whitewolf]

and what would be your return on the investment?

If I were that rich I wouldn't care about my return on investment. Nothing like having your own world pool tournment in your own back yard.

Having said this, I think eventually pool would take off. The ROI would not be there for a while. The key would be to put your 'pool dome' near a hot entertainment city.

 

[catscradle]

I see thread after thread questioning why Pool is not somehow a bigger and more popular sport than it is. Why isn't there a pro tour? Why don't the pros make more money? Why aren't they rich and famous like Baseball and Basketball players? Why isn't there more Pool on TV? Why are so many poolrooms closing? All this like there is something inherently wrong with the sport of Pool.

There isn't anything "wrong" with Pool. It is only the perception that it should somehow be better than it is that is wrong. I like Pool no matter what, and it's okay for me just the way it is! I still enjoy playing just as much now as I did when I was a kid learning the game. A good shot still feels like a good shot. If it never changes in my lifetime that's fine with me. I've had a good time, made lots of friends and made a decent living with this game. What more can you ask for?

Pool is not going anywhere! It's going to be around for a very, very long time. I'm CERTAIN more people play the game worldwide today than ever before. I'm glad that we have this great game to amuse, entertain and challenge us. My answer to all those questions about what's wrong with Pool is this - NOTHING!

I agree nothing is wrong with pool. However, that won't matter much if the decline of pool in THIS COUNTRY continues and one day we find ourselves having to drive a couple of hours to find a room.
There is nothing wrong with pool, but people today want instant gratification and aren't willing to wait to win while they learn to play.

 

[Island Drive]

All i was saying is she cant beat a local shortstop at pool and never could and she is getting 5k a day to do trick shots...She is professional and attractive good for her get paid thats nice if people will pay it

What you said sounds no different than saying an instructor must play better than the person he teaches. On another point, maybe Mike Massey should get paid less because he doesn't run 9-ball racks like he did when he was in his 30's, your FullTiltlogic/reasoning is not good.

 

[Scott Lee]

FullTilt...Okay, and a lot of this thread (including your comments) are about how the pros have a hard time making any kind of living out of playing pool. People are now, and always have been, willing to pay to be entertained. If that is the most lucrative avenue (even if not the favored one) to make money at pool, then by all means DO it. A person's overall "skill" has no particular bearing, on their ability to entertain a crowd. It's about 'acting' like a pro, dressing like a pro, communicating like a pro (show some humility)...and then you get PAID like a pro. I never said Ewa could beat the top men, but your statement that she can't play at all is not only arrogant (and sexist), and just your opinion, but completely wrong. I've seen Ewa run rack after rack, on many occasions. That proves she can play, imo. Could she beat guys like Strickland and Archer? Probably not...but that's not the issue. She has all the elements that make up a successful entertainer (looks, dress, intelligence, manners, communication skills, AND table skills). Don't hate her because she found a way to cash in on those attributes. I've said this a million times before...there could be 100 or more "pros" out there doing what I'm doing (teaching/entertaining), and all making a six figure living doing it. That fact that they don't pursue that avenue (but continue to whine about how crummy pool pays) speaks volumes. Do I think it is right that people can be best in America (or even best in the world) and not make a decent living? Nope...but that doesn't change the way things are. Take advantage of whatever opportunity presents itself...instead of badmouthing pool entertainers.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

All i was saying is she cant beat a local shortstop at pool and never could and she is getting 5k a day to do trick shots...She is professional and attractive good for her get paid thats nice if people will pay it

 

[pooltchr]

I was watching the Olympics over the weekend, and was thinking about the whole scene. The luge competition was on, and there were spectators standing along the run to watch the event. From their vantage point, they might see each participant for a grand total of 1.5 seconds, if they don't blink!

So why were they there? It wasn't to observe the technical ability of the sliders. They were there to be part of an event. So how do we get people interested in watching pool? We have to make it an event! We have to give people a reason to get excited about it. Why aren't people swarming to the souvineer tables to pick up their Archer tee-shirt, or their Black Widow ball cap? Our local hockey team gives away bobble head dolls of the players to the first 500 or 1000 people in the arena. And plenty of people shell out the cash to buy those tickets. Same thing for the baseball, football and basketball teams.
Go to an ACC basketball game in Durham, NC. They don't call those fans the Cameron Crazies for nothing! People go to an event to be a part of it. They want to get involved, and an active way.
What do we offer our fans? The chance to sit in the stands and politely applaud what they think is a great shot?

We have to find a way to get fans involved in our events. They need to walk away talking about what a great time they had, and looking forward to going back again.
We need more than competition, we need rivalries! We need excitement, We need fans that are pulling for their favorite player. We need heros (and maybe even villans)

We need marketing. We need weekly stories in the newspapers, or on the local tv news. We need to show people that they can have fun at a pool tournament. We need statistics (yes, some people are nuts about stats), we need story lines about the participants. The Daytona 500 was this weekend. What was the biggest story? Was it a female driver in her first NASCAR race? Was it a 4 time champion going for number 5? Was it the 50 year old guy who still just might beat all those young kids? Or was it all of these things that collectively make Daytona an event that people want to be a part of?

Just a few random thoughts on the topic. We need to make pool into something that will appeal to more than the hardcore players. It has to appeal to the average players, the casual players, and even the non players. (I've never been out on the ice to hit a hockey puck, but I love watching the game)

Your thoughts?

Steve

 

[peteypooldude]

Great post Jay,you hit that nail on the head

 

[scratchs]

I agree with Jay

For those's of you ..who think pro's need to make more money..I think you should host a few events, an raise the entry fee's to 2k, with know less then 200 players..get real right. Oh..an that's with no invitations, if you want to play..you have to pay.
This should make a few dollars..top 10 paid..or less..that or hold a ton of 150 dollar
Tourneys invite the pro's to play..an all you guys pay to play with them..
Imo what's wrong with pool is..the puppys don't shell out the money to play with the big dog's..you just want to whine an woof..

Yeah, I know , I can't spell..I love the game for what it is..

 

[pooltchr]

Imo what's wrong with pool is..the puppys don't shell out the money to play with the big dog's..you just want to whine an woof..

Yeah, I know , I can't spell..I love the game for what it is..

Nope! That ain't it. What other sport depends on the amateurs to play against the top level pros to support the pros game? Does MLB count on the farm system to pay it's top players? Do the top golfers make their money because the scratch golfers play on the tour with them? What you are suggesting is that the lower level players should contribute, so the top level can make money.
I don't believe that is how it needs to work. There has to be a way that the top players can have their own tour while the other players work to try and reach that level.
Steve

Steve

 

[scratchs]

I agree the pro's should have a tour of there own..I should have stated, the tourneys I was talking about are stand alone..once or twice a year for those with ego's, an for
Those who really have some skill, an just want to test it...in no way do I think the lower skilled player should pay a pro's wage..I don't know who is who on this broad..it just seems some have ego problems..but then again when it comes to pool, I think we all want a little rec..sometimes,