What's your Shot??

What he said: as long as execution is a factor, there is a huge variable thrown into the mix.

mosconiac said:
I was very specific in HOW I would attack this situation, including the exact english employed.

I was also specific in WHY I would attack this situation in that way (why I would break the 6B loose--off the 5B--to minimize risk in getting hooked behind the 7B).

Now you want everyone to state that they KNOW it will all work out as planned?!? No thanks, I'm human & subject to error.

Besides, this is a hypothetical situation that is bound to look different in real life. But never fear, I plan to set up the shot, in real life, tonight & record my findings.

Will I guarantee you that I can & will match my cuetable results...no.

Will I guarantee you that I will play out the options presented here & learn from my experiments...yes.
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Black-Balled said:
Too much draw from here:

CueTable Help

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You could have easily landed in the same spot by using too little draw. (hitting the long rail before the side)

It's just too touchy to really have any real confidence. Going two rails off the 5 ball is much more predictable if you know how to hit the rail target on the second rail.
 
Next, I tried the cut on the 4 to the corner, coming cross table to break them up. Looking at the tangent line off the 4, I figured to come up a little short of the 7. However, knowing that the thin cut will put english on the cb, I figured it would go right into the 7 with a stun shot, hit just hard enough to make the 4. Shot it 7 times, missed the 7 twice, the other 5 times I hit the diagram right side of the 7 and had an easy shot on the 6 in the corner. So, in my book, that is a high percentage way to go for me.[/QUOTE]

I thought this looked good glad it worked for you.I think one other way is
4 in the side with 1tip left ctr ball.Cb goes to end rail and back to the
cluster.More feel,but another option.
3 cushion players may feather the 4 into the side and score a point-4
end rail-end rail- long rail 6,or 7.:smile: I have never gotten good
enough to pull that off with any consistancy.:rolleyes:
 
I tried all combinations & this is a tricky little situation...more tricky than it appears on cuetable.

My own plan...draw off the 5B to break up the 6B/7B...is very unreliable. First, you have to get perfect shape off the 4B...too deep (towards the end rail) or too short (straight in on the 5B) and you are SUNK. Then you have to draw it perfectly to avoid the side pocket. The rare times I actually hit the cluster, I got a shot...but that was RARE!

Neil's 2-rail option was better, but success was not automatic. The majority of the times that I actually hit the cluster, I was hooked or ended up with no shot on the 6B.

Here's the answer...draw straight back off the 4B into the cluster. Yep, you can cheat the pocket & draw straight into the cluster. I placed the balls VERY accurately and you CAN cheat the pocket enough. I hit the top of the 7B every time. I know it looks steep, but you can do it. In fact, Joe Villalpando showed me a draw shot that I could not believe (illustrated below). It was very similar to Neil's situation, so I was comfortable with it.

There you have it...I was wrong. Mark that on your calendars. :)

Joe Villalpando's draw quiz:

CueTable Help

 
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mosconiac, this situation has come up for me 100's if not more over the years. As I stated in an earlier post this shot is no bargain. I tried it myself yesterday coming in two rails. It was no problem hitting them but two tries hit the third rail with light contact on the 7. Two made full contact with the 7 but only once did I have a shot on the 6. That is all I tried and I set up the shot with ideal position.

I never checked out drawing off the 4 into them because I did not remember the exact placement of the 4 and c/b. By looking at the set up again I think that is the best shot considering the 5 is near the pocket. No matter though you only get one pop in a game situation. If your stroking well you might get a shot. Plan accordingly.
 
Good thread, Neil

Over 100 posts, wow, we need more of these.

I'm not forgetting that it's a ghost situation this time.:o
But I think the money shot AND the ghost shot are the same here.
Get low on the 5-ball and send whitey at a SLOW speed with massive left
english at the 7-ball/rail hole.If you hit the gap, you almost always get a
shot on the 6-ball in the closest corner.
If you miss everything, you slide on by, but you're NEVER snookered.
Competitively, this gives you a chance at a hook or safety.
Playing the ghost, this gives you a chance to APA it.:smile:

Some of my most enjoyable moments in a pool hall have been arguing
about how to play a shot....at some tournaments in 3 different countries
there have been over 20 people involved.....
...it's one of the things I like about this game...and the people who play it.
 
Neil said:
here's a scenario that came up playing the ghost yesterday. How would you play this out? I don't mean guesses, I mean how would you KNOW how to break out the 6/7 off either the 4 or the 5?

CueTable Help

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I tried it today as the 3 cushion players might.I shot 4 in side cb to end
rail-opposite end rail-into cluster from short side only about 25%.
9 was in way for me to go 4 in the side tons of bottom right-end rail-
long rail near where 4 had been end rail-back side of cluster.
Hope this description are vivid enough to pique someone's interest!
 
FWIW, I hit Joe Villalpando with this situation today & he chose Neil's 2-rail breakout off the 5B.

Then I told him to look at it again...to see if he would recognize the draw shot off the 4B...and he didn't. I reminded him of the shot he showed me before & THEN he saw it...but thought it was a tough shot. I picked up my cue & showed him. Hit it first try again & he loved it.

You have to cheat the pocket & use 7-3 english (extreme 7 o'clock), but you can hit the 7B every time. It clears the cluster & leaves a very reasonable shot on the 5B.
 
Neil,

This is a classic center-of-the-table route. I think an easier way to visualize these is with the 45-degree rule. Here's a video demonstration:

and here's an article with illustrations and more information:

Regards,
Dave

Neil said:
I feel that the two rail route I took, or the draw off the 5 are about equal. Equal when you know HOW to aim them. I went the 2 rail route, it went as shown, the cb came in just behind the 7, lightly bumped it out, and the cb ended up just off the rail for a duck on the 6. Yes, I will be the first to admit that there was a certain amount of luck involved, but it was also planned luck.

This is what I did- I first decided on the two rail route, I'll get into why in the next post. Looking at the diagram, you know see an added 3 ball, 10 ball, and 1 ball. The one is the spot I want to hit by the 7. The 3 ball obviously is the ghost ball. The ten ball lies as close as I can guess to halfway on the line between the spot on the rail I want to hit by the 7, which is the 1 ball, and the ghost ball. I then take that spot, (the 10 ball) and find the angle with my cue to the pocket I want to go around. I then transfer that angle with my cue to come through the ghost ball, and see just where that hits the rail. I mark that spot in my mind.

Next, I look at the tangent line off the 5 ball, and see just where that hits the rail. In this case, they happen to be the same spot! Makes everything easier! If they weren't the same spot, I would now know if I needed draw or follow to hit the "10 ball" spot. That spot is where I want the cb to hit the rail.

Now, on paper, this works great. Different tables, different conditions, can change it up a little. But, the system works pretty accurately, and gives you something to actually aim for instead of just guessing. In my case, it just so happened to work out perfectly this time. It could just as well of hit the 7 instead of the rail, and I might even of got hooked.

This system, once you are used to it, only takes seconds to do. And, it gives you a definite aim point instead of just a guess that might be clouded at the moment by pressure in the game.

CueTable Help

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If you want to use "good action" draw and be fairly consistent with the path into the cluster, you would want the cut angle to be 1/3 of the total angle between the CB initial and final lines. For more info, see:
However, regardless of the angle you leave, you can choose the amount of draw by judging where the line to the cluster lies relative to the tangent line and trisect line. For examples, see:

Regards,
Dave

Neil said:
Here, is the draw shot off the 5. How do we KNOW what angle to get on the 5? ...

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klockdoc said:
I use the the Tom Rossman, [a.k.a Dr. Cue] 2+system for finding the contact point off the 5 ball. LINK

You would find that you would need to come into the 2nd diamond where the 7 ball is located in order to break out the cluster. Counting diamonds up the table, you arrive at a 3 diamond count (this puts you at 1 diamond past the side pocket. You stop there so you don't go past the object ball [5 ball]. Since the count is 3, you go to the 3 count on the short rail, (which is 1 diamond from the corner pocket). Taking a parallel shift to the 5 ball, that is your contact point. {basically the same as yours]. A little practice will give you the correct amount of english to use to arrive at the destination.

You're right though. Always good to go in with a plan.
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If people want more info on the Plus System, including how it is used in different game situations, check out my August '10 through October '10 Billiards Digest articles and the following video demonstration:

Regards,
Dave
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You can draw to the same target from a steeper angle on the 5 ball by adjusting your tip placement and shot speed, but not from a much wider angle.

The advantage of being right around the 2:1 line is that you know how to hit the CB (low and slow). The disadvantage is that you have to hit it pretty well.View attachment 1311880751
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PJ,

It's good to see you back ... and nice illustration.

For people interested, here's a video demonstration of the system:

Regards,
Dave
 
Neil said:
O.k., I tried it. I'm doing this on a bartable, so things are a little tighter than on a 9' Getting optimal shape on the 5 to cut it in the other corner is not the easiest thing to do. I figured that cutting the 5 and coming down one rail would be easy to hit the 6/7. Surprise! It turned out to be low percentage!

However, just shooting the cb into the 7/6 from the end rail, almost every time I had a shot on the 6 to either the corner, or the side, depending on speed.

Next, I tried the cut on the 4 to the corner, coming cross table to break them up. Looking at the tangent line off the 4, I figured to come up a little short of the 7. However, knowing that the thin cut will put english on the cb, I figured it would go right into the 7 with a stun shot, hit just hard enough to make the 4. Shot it 7 times, missed the 7 twice, the other 5 times I hit the diagram right side of the 7 and had an easy shot on the 6 in the corner. So, in my book, that is a high percentage way to go for me.
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Thanks for giving the shot a try. I normally play nine ball on a 9 foot table and I gave it a few tries the way I described it. I broke the 6/7 two out of four times and had a good shot at the 6 both times. For my abilities and playing to my strengths, that is the shot that I KNOW will work for me.
I think the way a player approaches this shot has as much to do with confidence as anything else (this is provided the selected shot has a prayer to begin with). I know that I can slide the cueball over to the other side of the 5 pretty consistantly so adjusting my english to come down one rail for the breakout seems natural based on my confidence in cueball placement. Put me on the 2 rail breakout and the little guy in my head says NO....YOU ARE GOING TO FOUL!!! Make me shoot a draw shot off of the five and the same thoughts of catastrophe are there.
This was a fun shot to take a run at!
 
Patrick Johnson! You see where that 10b is?! It can be done from there!;)

dr_dave said:
If you want to use "good action" draw and be fairly consistent with the path into the cluster, you would want the cut angle to be 1/3 of the total angle between the CB initial and final lines. For more info, see:

CueTable Help

][/INDENT]

Regards,
Dave
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Parallel on the 5

jwalko1 said:
Not sure I could play that table either, but I would come off the rail above the four ( using a small amount of follow, after making it in the side) to get even with the five (across the table, 1 diamond down from the top rail). Shoot the 5 in the corner using a small amount of draw, maybe 1 tip, depending on exactly where the cue ends up after the 4.

I believe this would cause the cue to slide down table and break out the 6-7. Now...getting a leave on the 6 is another challenge all together (and why I'm not sure i could finish out this table)

John
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As John said, I'd play the 4 and get as parallel on the 5 as possible and then just drag the CB down the rail into the 6/7 while pocketing the 5.

Ron F
 
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