When a cue plays too good............

JoeyA

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
This has never been a problem in the past, that I know of. But I got into a habit of swooping my cue stick on side spin shots. Recently, I also started setting up with center ball (no English) and then pivoting if I needed side spin or just swooping. I was playing pretty sporty for the most part but I felt like I was missing a few side spin shots that I shouldn't be missing. So somehow I realized what I was doing and went back to the basic fundamental of stroking straight and if I needed English (side spin) I would set up with the Side Spin, rather than pivoting or swooping. It seems that helps somewhat. Who'd a thunk that................

My playing cue is kind of forgiving and I guess I just got into the habit of pivoting and swooping because I could. My accuracy using side spin has improved (at least in my mind) since going back to setting up with side spin already factored in.

So, how many of you play with BHE or swoop when using side spin? Maybe this should be a poll but I'll pass on a poll for now.

JoeyA
 
remember about pivot point...

JoeyA said:
This has never been a problem in the past, that I know of. But I got into a habit of swooping my cue stick on side spin shots. Recently, I also started setting up with center ball (no English) and then pivoting if I needed side spin or just swooping. I was playing pretty sporty for the most part but I felt like I was missing a few side spin shots that I shouldn't be missing. So somehow I realized what I was doing and went back to the basic fundamental of stroking straight and if I needed English (side spin) I would set up with the Side Spin, rather than pivoting or swooping. It seems that helps somewhat. Who'd a thunk that................

My playing cue is kind of forgiving and I guess I just got into the habit of pivoting and swooping because I could. My accuracy using side spin has improved (at least in my mind) since going back to setting up with side spin already factored in.

So, how many of you play with BHE or swoop when using side spin? Maybe this should be a poll but I'll pass on a poll for now.

JoeyA
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Joey, a cue's pivot point has very little variability. The more deflection, the smaller variance a cue's pivot point will have. (I don't want this to potentially cause confusion. a cue's pivot point doesn't really have more than negligible variability. However, because a lower deflection shaft has a pivot point farther away from the CB, a change in the place you pivot creates a smaller deviation in angle from the same amount of tip offset in relation to the center of the CB.)

This could be why you were missing some shots while pivoting for side spin. If you weren't bridging from the cue's pivot point, you will miss.

I mark the pivot point on my shaft with a dot from a sharpie that way if I can't bridge from that point, I can see it to use FHE along with BHE to make sure the cue pivots from that point.

Jaden

This past weekend I had a couple of the NorCal'ers ask me why I aim with my shaft above the cue. Well more they asked me to confirm that that's what I was doing. The reason I gave was that it was easier to see the line of the shot without having to look through the ball to visualize the aimline, but another reason is the above.

Even if you bridge from the same point on the shaft, if you aren't placing your hand the same distance from the CB every time, you will add more variance and increase the chances of missing. By lining up with my shaft above the CB, I can more easily be assured of having my bridge the same distance from the CB every time AND I can more readily assure myself that I am lined up on the center of the ball.
 
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Hey Joey,

I've 'used' all different types of methods but mostly what I perceive as 'parallel' & a combo of FHE & BHE. I never really did like just BHE.

What I have also been using lately a bit is CJ's method of going TOI & then pivoting back to center or just the touch beyond & it's been working quite well unless I get carried away & go too far with the pivot.

As Always, Best Wishes, Merry Christmas, & Happy Holidays to You & Yours,
Rick
 
Jaden said:
Joey, a cue's pivot point has very little variability. The more deflection, the smaller variance a cue's pivot point will have.

This could be why you were missing some shots while pivoting for side spin. If you weren't bridging from the cue's pivot point, you will miss.

I mark the pivot point on my shaft with a dot from a sharpie that way if I can't bridge from that point, I can see it to use FHE along with BHE to make sure the cue pivots from that point.

Jaden
Click to expand...

Hi Jaden,

I've seen a few guys, mostly old timers, that put little cigarette burns on their shafts. I once told a young guy that asked me a question about one of them, that if you see a guy with a mark on his shaft... don't play him.

Best to Y'a, & Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays,
Rick
 
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I spent a little while trying out BHE but the pivot point of my cue (OB2 shaft) is so far back that it just wasn't feasible. Plus, the deflection of the OB2 is so little (and I don't push the limits of extreme tip position) that parallel just works better for me.
 
JoeyA said:
This has never been a problem in the past, that I know of. But I got into a habit of swooping my cue stick on side spin shots. Recently, I also started setting up with center ball (no English) and then pivoting if I needed side spin or just swooping. I was playing pretty sporty for the most part but I felt like I was missing a few side spin shots that I shouldn't be missing. So somehow I realized what I was doing and went back to the basic fundamental of stroking straight and if I needed English (side spin) I would set up with the Side Spin, rather than pivoting or swooping. It seems that helps somewhat. Who'd a thunk that................

My playing cue is kind of forgiving and I guess I just got into the habit of pivoting and swooping because I could. My accuracy using side spin has improved (at least in my mind) since going back to setting up with side spin already factored in.

So, how many of you play with BHE or swoop when using side spin? Maybe this should be a poll but I'll pass on a poll for now.

JoeyA
Click to expand...

I've been using BHE all my life....I didn't have a name for it till Patrick Johnson told me.
But I don't do it on the last stroke....I re-direct the tip on my warm-up strokes.
If the cue ball and object ball are in the same half of the table and I'm using medium
speed.....center ball and spin are all the same.
The trick is to find a cue that agrees with this or modify the one you got.

Adjustments for different ranges or speed are acquired by feel.
 
I was taught to always stroke parallel with the shot line, even when applying left and right spin. This method, along with contact point aiming works for me. I believe it was also Mosconi's method, or so I've been told.
 
pt109 said:
I've been using BHE all my life....I didn't have a name for it till Patrick Johnson told me.
But I don't do it on the last stroke....I re-direct the tip on my warm-up strokes.
If the cue ball and object ball are in the same half of the table and I'm using medium
speed.....center ball and spin are all the same.
The trick is to find a cue that agrees with this or modify the one you got.

Adjustments for different ranges or speed are acquired by feel.
Click to expand...

You beat me to it! FHE seems a little more sensitive to speed then BHE IMO.
If FHE is used, a slower speed seems to be required. If you spice it up a bit, a little parallel needs to be added and a little FHE needs to be subtracted to compensate forr the extra deflection the speed creates. Hope I explained that correctly.
 
NitPicker said:
I was taught to always stroke parallel with the shot line, even when applying left and right spin. This method, along with contact point aiming works for me. I believe it was also Mosconi's method, or so I've been told.
Click to expand...

You have to compensate for deflection if you hit it hard, and swerve if you hit it softer. Speed is the key.
 
funny thing

buckshotshoey said:
You beat me to it! FHE seems a little more sensitive to speed then BHE IMO.
If FHE is used, a slower speed seems to be required. If you spice it up a bit, a little parallel needs to be added and a little FHE needs to be subtracted to compensate forr the extra deflection the speed creates. Hope I explained that correctly.
Click to expand...


Funny thing, after basically a two decade layoff, I couldn't remember how I applied side. BHE worked, parallel shift worked, I just seem to be more comfortable with parallel offset.

Intuitively I would think that FHE would mess with your stroke and stance less than BHE and would seem to be the better choice. Sometimes I use front hand english and then make the final small correction with back hand english. Likewise I sometimes do the same when using parallel english and decide I want just a little more. A bit of both is what Joe Tucker recommends I believe but I don't know that he means the way I do it. I think he means take about half of the offset with FHE then add the other half with BHE but it has been a long time since I have read his stuff on applying english.

I think I probably play best when I just drop down with parallel offset and if I don't like what I have get up and down again. Not playing enough to know now though. My last outing was on new Valley bar tables and they are a strange beast!

I think you should go back to parallel and curving the ball in over the plate. It was good enough for Ralph Greenleaf, it is good enough for you! :thumbup:

Hu
 
anything but BHE...

anything but BHE (and even BHE in some circumstances) requires aim adjustments.

If you're using FHE or parallel shooting, except on the loosest of tables and or the lowest deflection of shafts, parallel side spin does not work unless you are making aiming adjustments.

This means that you are either consciously making aiming adjustments or subconsciously (i.e. feel).

This is the main problem I have with feel. If you start to get into a funk, you have nothing to fall back on and each problem affects your confidence for the other areas.

Most of the time when I'm competing, I'm not using any aiming systems (except for banks and kicks). I'm lining up on a center ball shot using feel for the most part. Then once I have that center ball aim, I pivot and raise or lower my bridge for any spin I want.

There's some things that I've worked through to make that as consistent as possible but I still can get chump 'gainst a champitis as I like to call it, like this last weekend. Also, it was stupid of me to get up at 2am and drive to san fran from san diego. Then I exacerbated that stupidity by driving home after getting knocked out one out of the money. I ended up having to pull over and take a two or so hour nap on the side of the freeway...:boring2:

When that happens if you are only a feel player you have nothing to fall back on. That's why I like at least being aware of and capable of using systems.

The more you can minimize the need for relying on the subconscious while still using the substantial power of the subconscious, the better off you are IMO.

Jaden
 
I think I actually do, or "think" that I do a little bit of both depending on the shot. By that I mean I'll cue right and brush to the right on shots where I feel like I need extreme spin. A good example is if I end up fairly close to straight but a touch on the wrong side of a side pocket ball and I need to 3 rails to get back to the other side of the table.
The image in my head during execution is what I do if I were trying to spin a basketball on my finger. If I hit the ball on the right and strike straight through it, the ball won't stay on pivot on my finger, and might even be knocked off to the left (deflection). But if I swipe around it, not only to I get more spin, it's also easier to keep it on my finger.
All this being said, these are only images I see, and what I think I'm doing, but it works for me.
Dave
 
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JoeyA said:
This has never been a problem in the past, that I know of. But I got into a habit of swooping my cue stick on side spin shots. Recently, I also started setting up with center ball (no English) and then pivoting if I needed side spin or just swooping. I was playing pretty sporty for the most part but I felt like I was missing a few side spin shots that I shouldn't be missing. So somehow I realized what I was doing and went back to the basic fundamental of stroking straight and if I needed English (side spin) I would set up with the Side Spin, rather than pivoting or swooping. It seems that helps somewhat. Who'd a thunk that................

My playing cue is kind of forgiving and I guess I just got into the habit of pivoting and swooping because I could. My accuracy using side spin has improved (at least in my mind) since going back to setting up with side spin already factored in.

So, how many of you play with BHE or swoop when using side spin? Maybe this should be a poll but I'll pass on a poll for now.

JoeyA
Click to expand...

what do you do with a cue that shoots too good :confused: .... OH ! I KNOW ! you put it in the wfs section saing its the best hitting cue you ever held. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
lorider said:
what do you do with a cue that shoots too good :confused: .... OH ! I KNOW ! you put it in the wfs section saing its the best hitting cue you ever held. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Click to expand...

What is wfs section?
JoeyA
 
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