When did pro players started needing backers (for tournaments and everything else)?

J

justinb386

Banned
I was just reading about the Dennis Orcollo issue with the contract he signed, and I just think that is very sad, and horrible.

The thing that I think is really messed up about it, is that it sounds to me like he still needs to pay all of his own expenses (or at least half (?), and I am confused about that).

Anyways, I am just curious when the economy got so bad that the top players started needing financial help from backers?

It seems to me, that many of these top players have made enough money in the past to not need any financial help from anyone, and could afford to cover their own bets and all other expenses without the help of a backer.

Are there any players left that do not need or use backers? Alex Pagulayan maybe? He seems like a very smart guy (probably smart with his money), but I do not know. And SVB? Why would he need a backer? His career earnings are probably in the millions by now, right?

I do not know, but I bet that these backers take a very large chunk of the players winnings (60 to 75% maybe) for big money matches, and I do not understand why the players can't afford to put up their own money (so that they do not need to give anything to a backer).

The guys like French really do not need to take any money from the players (or they can at least be reasonable about what they take from the players, if they cared, and were not so greedy). Rich guys like that could just make side bets, and make money that way (if they are that smart about who they bet on). Why do they feel the need to take from the poor players (that need their winnings)?

All this is just really sad (for pool) I think.
 
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Huh? The whole point of being a good player, even on a local level, is to have a backer. With a backer you can never lose. You can only win. Any player in the world, from Shane, to Efren in his prime, would be crazy to turn that down.
 
justinb386 said:
I was just reading about the Dennis Orcollo issue with the contract he signed, and I just think that is very sad, and horrible.

The thing that I think is really messed up about it, is that it sounds to me like he still needs to pay all of his own expenses (or at least half (?), and I am confused about that).

Anyways, I am just curious when the economy got so bad that the top players started needing financial help from backers?

It seems to me, that many of these top players have made enough money in the past to not need any financial help from anyone, and could afford to cover their own bets and all other expenses without the help of a backer.

Are there any players left that do not need or use backers? Alex Pagulayan maybe? He seems like a very smart guy (probably smart with his money), but I do not know. And SVB? Why would he need a backer? His career earnings are probably in the millions by now, right?

I do not know, but I bet that these backers take a very large chunk of the players winnings (60 to 75% maybe) for big money matches, and I do not understand why the players can't afford to put up their own money (so that they do not need to give anything to a backer).
It's quite simple, really. Many of these matches are fairly even. Winning and losing matches alternately does not make financial sense. Even if you have a winning record, a losing streak could easily bankrupt you. Which is why so many gamblers end up dead broke. What would you prefer, a steady income or a slightly higher income where you can randomly starve for 3 months, the be loaded for the next 2, then be broke again etc..That kind of stress is not good for any human being.

The guys like French really do not need to take any money from the players (or they can at least be reasonable about what they take from the players, if they cared, and were not so greedy). Rich guys like that could just make side bets, and make money that way (if they are that smart about who they bet on). Why do they feel the need to take from the poor players (that need their winnings)?
How do you think rich guys become rich? The rich benefactor is a myth that will never materialize. Rich guys leave if there is no money to be made. If they take risks, they do so only if the winnings will make it worthwhile.

All this is just really sad (for pool) I think.
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Agree. Every year it's a new charlatan of some sort in this game. Nobody seems to remember further back than about 11 months in this game. We're the goldfish of sportsfans.
 
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iusedtoberich said:
Huh? The whole point of being a good player, even on a local level, is to have a backer. With a backer you can never lose. You can only win. Any player in the world, from Shane, to Efren in his prime, would be crazy to turn that down.
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But, I think that the players that are strong enough to have backers interested in backing them (in the 1st place) should not need them, and if the backers are going to be unreasonable (about how much they receive in return), then I do not think that pool needs backers like that. The very top elite players really should not need backers, right? It would be nice if they had sponsors though, and I think that is the issue. Sponsors do not take any money from the players.
 
Pro players needing backers

Pro players know that at any given time they can be beat by other pro players. However you are always seeing on Facebook and other places where pros are barking at other pros to play for 10k or more. The reason is because its not their money being put up since they almost are always being staked. They have everything to win and nothing to loose. The few pros that have some money protect it and don't risk loosing it. There of course are exceptions.
 
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Straightpool_99 said:
Agree. Every year it's a new charlatan of some sort in this game. Nobody seems to remember further back than about 11 months in this game. We're the goldfish of sportsfans.
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If only pool had more sponsors, then the elite players would not need the backers. Unfair contracts (like the one that Orcollo signed) is only hurting the image of pool, right? This sport needs people that care about the players, and not just everyone out for themselves (if I said that correctly).
 
TWOFORPOOL said:
Pro players know that at any given time they can be beat by other pro players. However you are always seeing on Facebook and other places where pros are barking at other pros to play for 10k or more. The reason they do that is because its not there money being put up since they almost are always being staked. They have everything to win and nothing to loose. The few pros that have some money protect it and don't risk loosing it. Backers are becoming harder to find if they are splitting the winnings 50/50 the backers have to win 2 out of 3 times just to break even.
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Yeah, and that is why I have the feeling that it is not usually an even 50/50 split, if the backer is putting up 100% of the money. I am guessing maybe 75% for big money matches. So, the winning player would receive $2,500 on a $10,000 match, which sounds pretty good if the winning player had nothing to risk if losing. It actually sounds pretty fair if the backer is paying for all of the players expenses.
 
Pro pool players don't make as much as you apparently think they do, especially considering the expenses involved. Just how many millions do you think Shane has made?
 
iusedtoberich said:
Huh? The whole point of being a good player, even on a local level, is to have a backer. With a backer you can never lose. You can only win. Any player in the world, from Shane, to Efren in his prime, would be crazy to turn that down.
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Exactly. Having a good backer is the nut.
 
This has been discussed many times on AZ, with very strong feeling on both sides. Strictly speaking financially on the backers behalf think about it like this : if any particular backer stakes a given player all the time for any given amount of time this is what it can look like given a 50 / 50 split- say player a plays 10 $10,000 sets and wins them all ( which is near impossible with the level these guys play at ). So player A wins $50,000. Next month he has a bad month and looses 5 sets. Now player A is still up $50,000 but said backer is dead even ( not including any incurred expenses BTW ).

ANYHOW I'm sure you can see how being a backer can VERY quickly become a losing proposition. That is the reason backers tend to take such a large portion of the winnings. As JAM would argue, and I don't necessarily disagree, the players up there doing all the work deserve half the winnings for all of their hard work and talent but obviously it's a #'so thing and in the long run the #'s just don't work.

As to the question why these top players don't just put themselves in; well as stated it's way smarter for them to play on someone else's money even if the payout is not in their favor. Also as stated before, pool players are notoriously bad with bankroll management . Aside from very high living expenses on the road, many like to indulge in the casinos which can empty you out in a heartbeat. Tough row to hoe to put it mildly. Some players have been smart with their winnings investing it in Real Estate ( such as SVB ) but even SVB would have a hard way to go if he wasn't routinely staked.
 
History geek alert:

($ome) Billiard/pool players have had "backers" since Jesus wore diapers.


As you were.
 
raise1 said:
Exactly. Having a good backer is the nut.
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Having a backer is the nut due to odds but having the money to back yourself if you choose is where its really at. Some players are doing all right but no where near pool's potential imo.

The professional pool scene could be a lot more lucrative imo if the powers that be would concentrate more on the entertainment that a pool match could offer to the general public... making them fans. With the fans come sponsers and $$`s... Dollars to the promoters and the players ... and with new fans come dollars to all else within the industry.


Some ideas to make it more entertaining:
1) Allow the fans to have fun.
2) Give up on this fear of having a poor image. (D-U-double L)
3) An event should be no more than 2 or 3 hrs.
4) Have an MC.
 
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when these Filipino players play here in the Philippines, they usually play with their own money. if the bet becomes significantly high (about $1500+ then someone would probably be backing up the players).
When players like Dennis go to the US though, they're backed-up already starting from their travel/hotel expenses to the tournament, not to mention the Filipinos in the US also willing to back them up for money matches. it's easy money for these players, and even if they do not earn that much because of "percentage-cut" when using someone else's money, bringing home US dollars to the Philippines is still a big deal. it's always win-win. (especially now that the rate of US dollar is consistently increasing for the past couple of months)
 
I don't know how it works for most backers but don't some have kind of agreement that if the player loses and then wins the backer takes most of the money to make up for the loses.

There is a great read called "Playing Off the Rail" that will give some kind of an idea of how it is to travel around trying to win.

I was on an elevator with Souque. I asked him about traveling and seeing the sights. He said all he sees is the PH, airport and room as there is no time for anything else. Doesn't seem to be too great to do day after day.

🎱
 
Ohhhh so the backers are too greedy, eh?

Goodnight...sounds like a true Bernie Sanders supporter!

If the player doesn't like it, he doesn't have to agree to the deal. The backers are the ones taking virtually all of the risk.

If players were more responsible with their money, they wouldn't need the backers as much.

Let me guess, you think education and healthcare should be completely free also, right Justin?

It is ALWAYS the same story. Those who think the people with a lot of money are too greedy...need to build something from the ground up, before they truly respect what it is to take risk and then have the benefits of what the hard work and risk gave to those with money!
 
TheBook said:
I don't know how it works for most backers but don't some have kind of agreement that if the player loses and then wins the backer takes most of the money to make up for the loses.

There is a great read called "Playing Off the Rail" that will give some kind of an idea of how it is to travel around trying to win.

I was on an elevator with Souque. I asked him about traveling and seeing the sights. He said all he sees is the PH, airport and room as there is no time for anything else. Doesn't seem to be too great to do day after day.

🎱
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Playing off the rail was an awesome book! There is even a chapter in it called " The Dew Factor " - It was about my home room ( Jack & Jills cue club in Glen Burnie, Md. That place is long gone ) The book is as you said a great book with a bunch of road stories but the book is very old and unfortunately NOTHING is anywhere like it used to be when the book was written 😂.
 
No backers = NO ACTION!

Backers are part of the Pool world because they are the gamblers, sometimes even beyond the players.

I have backed guys that didnt want to play because they didn't think could win, but once I got them up there, it was game on. We win or lose, but that's gambling.

Backers also keep the Pool halls full. Many times theres nothing happening until a backer comes in the room, once that happens the buzz starts and Pool room owners Love that, its good for the Pool hall and for the players that aren't even involved in the action because it creates movement.
 
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