When Ronnie Allen re-invented 1 hole.

Grady said:
Ronnie first. A good way to think of Ronnie's best game is simply perfect, I mean you couldn't play better. Am I the only one who remembers how great Ronnie broke the balls?
Now, I wish I didn't have to say this but I am compelled. If Efren bet his own money in an extended match, I might let Cliff, Artie in his prime or Parica give HIM a ball.
Just from this old jaded war horse: Guys who don't ever bet their own money are non factors in the gambling world.
I think a lot of Cliff although he has his share of problems.But I'd like to try to help him if I can in this Efren matter. Why do you think I say 15 ahead? Obviously I'd like to take Efren out of his comfort zone. If he's so much the nuts this shouldn't be a problem. I also am willing to have Cliff submit to a drug test. Now, is there anything else I can do to try to get this right? I know how Cliff playe in an extended match, say 3 or 4 days. Efren, I don't know.
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Efren gives cliff A BALL. One measly ball. Maybe two if Cliff begs him enough, but countless times I see Efren refusing to give Cliff anything more than a ball. Cliff would most definately be the favorite in a 15 ahead session. He is much younger than Efren. You have to understand that Efren is not a healthy individual. Years of smoking have ravaged his body. The point I am trying to make is only this- who is the better player when they are at their best? I am talking about having a good night's sleep, they are both in stroke, and executing to the fullest of their abilities. In a format of say race to 5 or 7, Efren wins by a mile. In your format of 15 ahead, Efren can't win. His arm would be dead a few hours into the match. You are not giving him credit for his age, Grady. Everything I just said, I mean it with all due respect towards yourself, because you are a living legend. I just happen to disagree with your opinion and I want to make my point.
 
what ya fail to understand cuetech, is the old players have the mentality of if you can't beat em' - out juice em. By that i mean play there legs out from under them for a long period of time til they can't make a ball. you are always going for the throat, always out to bust a guy. the road warriors of old were always jacked up on juice or powder or pills. the key to beating them was having deep enough pockets to out run their mojo, then you could dig in their pockets. rarely did they ever let that happen though, they would pull up and quit.

in a race to 15, yeah you have to go with the mover and shaker and youth of Cliff, but then again, why would Efren want to play for days on end when he is already king of the 1p world? for 15k? gimme a break, he just won 200k last fall. thats chump change to him. i would highly doubt that game would ever go off. Efren would be stupid if it did.
 
The sentiment that is expressed in this thread regarding Efren, i.e. that “he won’t stand for a strumming” appears to be expressed by too many knowledgeable people for it not to have some truth in it. However, I wonder if we are not giving Efren enough credit? That is to say, I wonder, especially in more recent times, if Efren’s willingness to unscrew against a clearly weaker player who might have caught a gear, isn’t an attempt to preserve one of his best assets—a strong intimidation factor. If more people see Efren get caught in some shortstop’s dead punch, then more people are going to think he is as weak as some people have suggested. Moreover, others have mentioned the toll smoking has taken on his body, if Efren can preserve the impression that he his playing on some higher level, then guys will get weak playing him—incidently I think this does happen some.

“Laying down” is something pool players have used for years to get an advantage. However, Efren is obviously past the point of being able to lay down. However, Efren can try and foster the idea that he is Zeus on a pool table. Allowing some guy to catch a gear on him doesn’t seem to encourage the intimidation factor he has working for him currently. What do people say about this take on things? Is it plausible or even likely?

kollegedave


freddy the beard said:
They are right, Efren will not stand still for a strumming. I know from personal experience. Those few times when I had him on the whipping post he hopped like a rabbit and packed it in. Four barrels at the most. To verify another conjecture, yes, he does get squirmy if you can get the balls up table. A stategy I employed relentlessly against him. However, up table means way up table. You must leave them near the back rail where he cant get behind them. Having said all this, I still think he is the best 1pkt player of all time. But I would have loved to see him tested by warriors like, Ronnie, Bugs, and Artie when they were in their prime. Ronnie would have shown him sharks he had never seen, Bugs, banks he had never seen, and Artie, moves he had never dreamed of.
Denny Searcy: Whatever award Grady and Steve Booth have dreamed up for Denny is certainly deserving. He was a ferocious gambler and played all games at a top, top level. (even a little 3 cushion)

That's my take,
the Beard,
Bank on brother!
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This discussion is just fantastic. Thanks to all the posters, esp Grady, Freddie and Jay. Man, you guys sure know your one pocket.

Grady, I hope you didnt think I was challenging your ability to gauge one pocket speed. Having watched over 100+ accustat one pocket tapes, I have the utmost respect for your opinions on one hole. I grew up watching Efren play and not Ronnie play, you can see how its easy to think Efren is the all time champ. Sorta like if you never saw Michael Jordan play in his prime you could easily think some other player was the best.

Nowadays it seems like when you ask people who is the best one pocket player you get into discussions like the one I had with a stakehorse at the DCC this year:

him:"Cliff is the best right now"
me:"wait a minute what about Efren?"
him "well DUH-- but thats a given, i meant after Efren, Cliff is the best"

Dennis Searcy is not a household name in the billiard community. I actually think of Dennis Searing when I see his name. Can you tell us a bit more about Searcy?
 
Cliff and Efren

I never mentioned a price for the 15 ahead. Cliff is 44 and Efrren around 50. That's not much of an age factor. Hell, I'm 63 and I can stay up at least 48 hours on the natch.I also smoked Camel regulars for 42 years, until I was 55. So I don't wanna hear about Efren smoking.
One thing I am not going to do on this forum is get into a flame war about this.Everyone is entitled to their opinion.I'm one of the few, if not the only guys to have beaten Efren playing even. Of course he didn't stay lit too awfully long!!
 
By no means am I qualified to comment on high end gambling, or disagree with the likes of Grady or Freddie, but I have seen top players pull up early when it's not happening for them. I always tried to ask what was up, and my take from what they said was......some days you just know you don't have it, so why torture yourself and throw good money after bad.

Some people say that's having a lack of heart.....

Others say it's proper management....

I never understood the mentality of play til your broke, or your not a true gambler.

I have pulled up in my low budget games when I knew in my heart I didn't have what it took THAT DAY! Maybe I'm a Nit......but I always gave them another crack when I felt better...I just cannot stand to play when I'm out of stroke...it's embarrassing

Gerry
 
Grady said:
Look, I'm not knocking Efren. He's a great player and to borrow a Jack Nicklaus quote about Tiger Woods, "He plays a brand of One Pocket I'm not familiar with." Cardone doesn't say many things that are smart but he did utter this truism about Reyes: "One Pocket is a perfect game for him", meaning his Rotation and Billiard skills stand him in good stead at One Pocket.
I'm probably going to shock many on this respected board by this, which is what I really believe: Cliff is the finest One Pocket player in the world today, IMHO, if a real man's match were made out of it. 15 ahead, even One Pocket, 72 hours or until someone wins the cash. No excuses, no quitting, no casinos within a hundred miles. If I happen to do well in one of the IPT events you can look for me to try to set domething like this up.
While I'm pontificating this fine morning I'd like to say that Greg Sullivan, Steve Booth of the terrific One Pocket and Bank Pool HOF and I are planning to honor Denny Searcy. This is another one of those "You just had to be there to see it." Nobody ever played better than this past great champion, who labored in obscurity and need for years. We'll keep everybody posted about this.
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Denny Searcey was fun to watch and had "big Heart".
 
cuetechasaurus said:
In a 15 ahead one pocket match, the winner is the person who's got the most pills or powder, you and I both know that. I am talking about when a player is in dead punch, who is the best. Not when they are dead tired or wired on caffeine or some other chemical. And I didn't say you are knocking Efren, Grady, I said Enzo was, because he does that habitually. You are entitled to your opinion, and I would love to see another Efren/Cliff match, but I know that Cliff won't play him even. The last few times they played Efren spotted him and Cliff lost.
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Why would anyone in their right mind play him even rigt now.
 
Every match was a death match

Gerry said:
By no means am I qualified to comment on high end gambling, or disagree with the likes of Grady or Freddie, but I have seen top players pull up early when it's not happening for them. I always tried to ask what was up, and my take from what they said was......some days you just know you don't have it, so why torture yourself and throw good money after bad.

Some people say that's having a lack of heart.....

Others say it's proper management....

I never understood the mentality of play til your broke, or your not a true gambler.
Gerry
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I guess times are different now. When Grady are I were sprouts it was always a duel to the death. We played many times, and most times whoever won broke the other guy. With other opponents, many times I won after being way behind because my opponent realized I wasnt going to quit, and he didnt have it in him to take me off. The easier way out way was to let up, and then let me pound him. I didnt want to just break him, I wanted to win parts of his body. That was the kind of mind-set needed then to survive at the Rack in Detroit and Bensingers in Chicago. (The New York poolrooms were the exception, 7Eleven, Ames, etc. were "two barrel tops" joints) Grady and I, and others were known as "straight tickets." That meant if you could win, you could win it all. The upside of that bull-headedness was that whoever got down with you knew that they had to bring more than a few good shots and a couple games to discourage you. I already mentioned earlier in this thread that I beat Ronnie Allen 11 straight for $200 a game and he didnt quit. Even I thought (mistakenly) he was going to quit. Before the joint closed he had recovered about 4 or 5 games. That's what's known as heart and determination, and your opponents will fear that side of you. Even today the image affects the people I play today. They get a few games ahead and they are suddenly setting time limits and excuses about having to quit early.

the Beard
Stay on, brothers!
 
Over the years, do the veterans here think that more players are only willing to play if staked? That players of yesteryear were more willing to play with their own money?

For example I had an opportunity to watch Chris Bartrum play. He bets his own and has tremendous heart. I dont think he is one of those pull up after being stuck 4 barrels type of guy. With alot of other players in action these days, it seems like most of them can walk around with 5k in their pockets and still want to be staked for a $500 set.
 
Dennis Searcy is not a household name in the billiard community. I actually think of Dennis Searing when I see his name. Can you tell us a bit more about Searcy?[/QUOTE]

Denny was a great road gambler, kinda like Jack Cooney, with one difference. Denny came into town looking for the best player, one nobody could beat, even the roadmen. And then he dusted the guy, beating him to a pulp.

He didn't care if your name was Sigel or Hall, he wanted you on the table with him and betting all you had. Many times Denny would show up at the end of a tournament (he never bothered with them) and looked around the room, making an open challenge to all present. He was more than glad to accommodate the winner of the tournament for whatever bet they wanted to make, on the same table they just won the tourney on.

That's why Denny is a legend in gambling circles. He didn't look for easy games. He played only the best and brought them to their knees. No one I ever saw could play like him on a snooker table at Pay Ball. He could spin balls down the rail perfectly to make them drop in the end pockets. No one else could do the things he did. He robbed the Pay Ball game in Dayton with all the top players.

There were good players in the 70's and then there was Denny. He went looking for Richie and Greg Stevens and Bernie Schwartz and Cardone and the like. Everyone kind of drew a wide path around Denny in those days. Let Keith and Buddy and Wade Crane tell you how they felt about tangling with him. I saw him absolutely bar-b-q Louie at his peak. I heard he beat Richie in LA at the old Billiard Palace. And Greg Stevens at LeCue in Houston.

Sigel supposedly declined the invitation. Larry Hubbart knew better then to put his man in the ring against Denny. Hubbart had his own taste of Denny's medicine and didn't like it. And Larry beat everyone for the cash. 9-Ball or Ten Ball, Denny had to be one of the best who ever lived. Right there with Lassiter, Worst, Don Willis and George Rood.

I would like to know the names of all the great players he played. I just know he ducked no one. Maybe Grady and Freddie can fill me in.
 
RED NAXELA said:
Grady said:
I'm one of the few, if not the only guys to have beaten Efren playing even. QUOTE]

Pray tell, Grady, how many did he win against you playing even?
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I would say probably 5 for every 1 Grady one,i think at world class levels anyone of these guys can win a set or a game but when you hear a guy say i beat everyone,perhaps so but how many times over did you get beat?There is a guy who i know who says he beat Mosconi,Caras,Crane,its possibly true but how many times did they win?Another guy says he beat Miz,Hopkins,and a bunch of others,also he probably has but.......in the long haul over a long session you see whos best,not veryone is a stayer,they glimmer for a moment but some people just shine.Efren vs. Cliff,Efren of course,Cliff is great but how many times did he get beat getting weight?I was also wondering how Grady compared to Hopkins?,i know Allen has a ton of knowledge and at one time was very feared in 1 hole.
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uwate said:
Bump for this great thread.

For those that watched Ronnie Allen play in his prime, can you tell us some more stories about how good he played? Grady, I have alot of respect for your opinion but for Ronnie to be the best ever in one pocket is hard to believe, especially after watching Efren play lately.
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I think I mentioned this a while ago on AZB but it's worth repeating in this thread:

Billy Incardona was interviewing Ronnie during an accustats' one-pocket tape and asked Ronnie: in his prime, how he thought he'd do against Efren. Ronnie thought for a while and replied "Efren might eventually win the dough, but he'd be too tired to spend it". I thought it was a classic and worth sharing. Also, these are probably not his exact words but you get the idea.

Dave
 
kollegedave said:
The sentiment that is expressed in this thread regarding Efren, i.e. that “he won’t stand for a strumming” appears to be expressed by too many knowledgeable people for it not to have some truth in it. However, I wonder if we are not giving Efren enough credit? That is to say, I wonder, especially in more recent times, if Efren’s willingness to unscrew against a clearly weaker player who might have caught a gear, isn’t an attempt to preserve one of his best assets—a strong intimidation factor. If more people see Efren get caught in some shortstop’s dead punch, then more people are going to think he is as weak as some people have suggested. Moreover, others have mentioned the toll smoking has taken on his body, if Efren can preserve the impression that he his playing on some higher level, then guys will get weak playing him—incidently I think this does happen some.

“Laying down” is something pool players have used for years to get an advantage. However, Efren is obviously past the point of being able to lay down. However, Efren can try and foster the idea that he is Zeus on a pool table. Allowing some guy to catch a gear on him doesn’t seem to encourage the intimidation factor he has working for him currently. What do people say about this take on things? Is it plausible or even likely?

kollegedave
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Great Post!!! I'm biased because I happen to agree with what you said, but it is just such a valid point. Pool is around 90% mental (at least imo) when you get to these high levels. Efren is a very strong practitioner of winning easy victories, most champions are. There was a champion sumo wrestler, and he was quoted as saying "i never seek to defeat the man i am fighting, i seek to defeat his confidence. a man troubled by doubt cannot focus on the course to victory."

imo, if the skill level could somehow be measured as a number (which it can't really), efren would be at or near the top, and there would be many players near and perhaps some above him. but it would WAKE EVERYBODY UP AS TO HOW CLOSE THEY REALLY DO PLAY TO HIM, and i bet he'd start losing much more.

it's all about the player's psychology, efren seems to be above the rest when it comes to this and his winning record is the result. and, you must give him his due credit.

the cliff vs efren subject is such an interesting one. i watch cliff play and i personally see a truly brilliant one pocket player. efren has a very good record against him because of what i've stated above imo, not becasue he has some mystical "magician" powers, that is what he wants his opponents to think.
 
Fast Lenny said:
RED NAXELA said:
I would say probably 5 for every 1 Grady one,i think at world class levels anyone of these guys can win a set or a game but when you hear a guy say i beat everyone,perhaps so but how many times over did you get beat?There is a guy who i know who says he beat Mosconi,Caras,Crane,its possibly true but how many times did they win?Another guy says he beat Miz,Hopkins,and a bunch of others,also he probably has but.......in the long haul over a long session you see whos best,not veryone is a stayer,they glimmer for a moment but some people just shine.Efren vs. Cliff,Efren of course,Cliff is great but how many times did he get beat getting weight?I was also wondering how Grady compared to Hopkins?,i know Allen has a ton of knowledge and at one time was very feared in 1 hole.
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i only have one "sample point" to comment on this, but on an accu stats after hours tape i have, efren and grady duke it out even. it goes hill-hill-efren ends up winning, and if you watch very closely, efren gets 3 (or maybe 4) HUGE rolls. grady gets no rolls like this. 2 of efrens rolls are game winning rolls. to take it further, efrens offense (running balls) is so superior in the match. of course he deserves credit for this, but if grady had near the ball running power the results could easily be different. i most conclude considering the score of the match and efrens superior execution ability that grady has a superior one pocket mind, i just dont know what else you could conclude. how can you go hill hill with someone with that type of execution without being a better thinker?
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enzo said:
ive said this many times, i guess ill say it again. if you actually read my threads, which i think at this point your attention span is too short to do this, i praise efren more than i criticize him.

there is no perfect pool player, you seem to think efren is perfect in every way. that is fine, i don't think its correct but you can think that. i simply point out the flaws ive seen in his game, of which there are very few, but he definitely does have them.

as far as the rep goes, that is something i would expect a guy with a bad rep to say. the whole "i dont care, give me more" attitude is very see through. ive heard 6 years olds with more sophisticated comebacks.

sorry to expose everyone else to this nasty discourse :(
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I did read most of your posts, and again I'm not the only one who thinks you are an Efren hater. Never said Efren was perfect, just said that he has withstood the test of time, and he excells in most departments of the game over every other player. Putting Grady's and Freddy's comments aside, I would enjoy seeing what hundreds of other top players think about how Efren plays. The majority of them would say he is the greatest ever.

And as far as the rep goes, get a clue. If you want, scroll back in the NPR forum and look for my threads asking everyone to give me as much bad rep as possible, I explained why. :rolleyes:
 
Oh, and as for Efren folding when he is stuck by a large defecit, I highly recommend watching the last two tapes of Efren vs Earl race to 120 TCOM $100,000 in Hong Kong.

Aside from that amazing feat, I have about a dozen accustats tapes of Efren making comebacks when he is stuck 5, 6, or 7 games. Grady I believe you commentated on a couple of them.
 
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