Charles M said:
Leonardo Andam was there from time to time. As was Parica of course. I'm not sure if Lining came there once or twice, but I think that is where I first saw him.
When Ronnie Allen re-invented 1 hole.
- Thread starter stolz2
- Start date
Leonardo Andam was there from time to time. As was Parica of course. I'm not sure if Lining came there once or twice, but I think that is where I first saw him.
stevelomako said:
cecil tugwell
next time jay, freddie or grady chime in (or anybody really), can you comment some on cecil tugwell?
i have a fondness for cecil and play him quite a bit, he never really wants to tell me anything about his past but the people he beat. he plays pretty bad now but i learn quite a bit from him watching his shot selection at times. he's also good for me to play banks with because i have NO experience there. i know he can get outa line sometimes, he even does this with me and i treat him with respect and treat him as a friend. anyway, any positive comments about him would be highly appreciated.
thanks all!
next time jay, freddie or grady chime in (or anybody really), can you comment some on cecil tugwell?
i have a fondness for cecil and play him quite a bit, he never really wants to tell me anything about his past but the people he beat. he plays pretty bad now but i learn quite a bit from him watching his shot selection at times. he's also good for me to play banks with because i have NO experience there. i know he can get outa line sometimes, he even does this with me and i treat him with respect and treat him as a friend. anyway, any positive comments about him would be highly appreciated.
thanks all!
No offense to the pool magazines, but this thread makes me want to cancel my subscriptions. On their best day, they can't compete with this thread for sheer reading entertainment. Thanks to Mssrs Helfert, Bentivegna and Mathews for their generous sharing of "the real story"; if this were PPR (Pay Per Read), I'd go busted with a smile. Jay, you need to write a book; your writing style is good-to-go and your wealth of knowledge needs to be memorialized...you got one sold here. Reading about Denny made me think of some of the eye-popping stuff he could do on the table, stuff I've never seen anyone else do, with the possible exception of Mike Massey (when he was on the road, not talking about the trick shot stuff) or Keith "Squirrel" Thompson. Any thoughts on who some of the great "eye-poppers" were, or are?
yobagua said:
Absolutely I agree, he didn't get where he is by sitting on the bench and Mike is a top notch handicapper. I don't think Efren would be where he is without Mike which is why I mentioned it.
enzo said:
He played Efren in a challenge match at Hardtimes in the early 90's and Efren was snapping off everyone coast to coast. They played you had to win 3 games to win a set and the first one to win 4 sets won the cash (in the thousands but I forget how much). Efren won the first two sets and then Cecil snapped off the next 4 sets running out from everywhere. This was accomplished playing left-handed, he was a great right-handed player but he got busted up so badly he had to teach himself how to play left-handed and he worked at it for several years until he perfected it.
A funny scene at the end of his challenge match (where he had just beaten maybe the best one-pocket player in the world) is Keith McCready barking at Cecil to play him some now that he had the cash.
Wayne
Cecil The Serpent Tugwell
I go back all the way to the old Ye Billiard Den with Cecil. We used to play regularly then. We were both only top shortstops then. Years later when Cecil came to Chicago he was now a top player. Harold Denson was steering and staking him, and they wound up in Bensingers. In Cecil's first match he landed on Artie. He or Harold didnt know him. Harold figured Cecil could beat anybody in Chicago except Bugs. Wrong. Artie tortured him and Cecil was so frustrated from the strumming, when they were at the counter paying the time Cecil sucker punched Artie and ran out the door. Artie hadnt taunted him or anything, he just embarassed him. I dont think the Serpent won a game. Cecil and I were good friends, but he was a hideous loser and would go ballistic often. Cecil and Artie eventually made up and became good friends too -- except Cecil never played him again. When you see The Serps, tell him hello for me.
the Beard
I go back all the way to the old Ye Billiard Den with Cecil. We used to play regularly then. We were both only top shortstops then. Years later when Cecil came to Chicago he was now a top player. Harold Denson was steering and staking him, and they wound up in Bensingers. In Cecil's first match he landed on Artie. He or Harold didnt know him. Harold figured Cecil could beat anybody in Chicago except Bugs. Wrong. Artie tortured him and Cecil was so frustrated from the strumming, when they were at the counter paying the time Cecil sucker punched Artie and ran out the door. Artie hadnt taunted him or anything, he just embarassed him. I dont think the Serpent won a game. Cecil and I were good friends, but he was a hideous loser and would go ballistic often. Cecil and Artie eventually made up and became good friends too -- except Cecil never played him again. When you see The Serps, tell him hello for me.
the Beard
Jay, seeing the room Mergards in your post leapt out at me! Was that the room on the 2nd floor next to a bowling alley near Peeble's Corner; or was it the room connected to a stand-alone bowling alley further east of there? I used to play at both rooms in the early 60's, but I'd forgot all about them.jay helfert said:
Thanks,
Doc
I remember when Cecil was a young kid who just got out of the service. He would just take a back table at Ye Billiard Den and play by himself for hours. He was such a sweet kid. Later when he got better he would give me 9/5 and rob me. Something happened to him though. The next time I saw him play was in a one pocket tournament against a young King James Rempe. Jay was the ref. Cec would just act like an ass and I was embarrassed for him. I just turned and walked away. Such a waste of great talent. The next I heard someone broke his right arm and he was lying low.
gulfportdoc said:
Both, but all the action was in the one next to the bowling alley on the ground floor. Joey Spaeth hung there and Clem. I saw Pete Glenn play Patcheye and all the top players from around Ohio, Kentucky and Indiana would come thru from time to time.
I had a job downtown at the Fifth-Third bank building. I would stay up til 3 or 4 AM at Mergards and try to get two or three hours sleep and go in to work. I was a zombie.
Cecil the Serpent
Cecil was perhaps the most talented black pool player I ever saw. Of course he couldn't beat Cicero Murphy at 14.1 or Bugs at Banks or One Hole. But he could play all games at a high level by the time he was in his early 20's. 9-Ball, One Pocket, 14.1, Banks it made no difference.
Unfortunately, he had a volatile temper and often got into beefs with other players. It only got worse as he got older. I traveled with Cecil and staked him in the early 80's, after he got his wrist broken in Detroit. He had learned to play Lefty and now called himself the Left Duke. Oh well.
He did not play like he did with his right hand, but was still good enough to win tournaments in Sacramento and Modesto against the best players on the West Coast, including Lou Butera, Kim Davenport, Doc Brienza, Ernesto and Keith. He still played good enough One Pocket that no one around could beat him.
We returned from one successful trip with about 5K, and I gave him half. I didn't hear from him again for many weeks. When I did, he was hooked on crack. He warned me against using it (I had no interest anyway). This was more than 15 years ago and he has steadily declined since in ability and sensibility.
He used to come in my poolroom at Hollywood Park daily. But he finally wore out his welcome there too.
enzo said:
Cecil was perhaps the most talented black pool player I ever saw. Of course he couldn't beat Cicero Murphy at 14.1 or Bugs at Banks or One Hole. But he could play all games at a high level by the time he was in his early 20's. 9-Ball, One Pocket, 14.1, Banks it made no difference.
Unfortunately, he had a volatile temper and often got into beefs with other players. It only got worse as he got older. I traveled with Cecil and staked him in the early 80's, after he got his wrist broken in Detroit. He had learned to play Lefty and now called himself the Left Duke. Oh well.
He did not play like he did with his right hand, but was still good enough to win tournaments in Sacramento and Modesto against the best players on the West Coast, including Lou Butera, Kim Davenport, Doc Brienza, Ernesto and Keith. He still played good enough One Pocket that no one around could beat him.
We returned from one successful trip with about 5K, and I gave him half. I didn't hear from him again for many weeks. When I did, he was hooked on crack. He warned me against using it (I had no interest anyway). This was more than 15 years ago and he has steadily declined since in ability and sensibility.
He used to come in my poolroom at Hollywood Park daily. But he finally wore out his welcome there too.
jay helfert said:
Jay,
I just have to say it's a pleasure having you posting here.... You just keep bringing up names of people I haven't thought of in a long time! Pete Glenn- One of my favorite people in pool. Great guy and class act.... Pete always swung thru the poolroom when he was passing thru town and we'd trade spots and play some cheap one-pocket. At his age now he doesn't see well enough to shoot at his hole but man can he move!!! Pete moves real smooth and precise (kinda "Cooney-esque"). And Patcheye... Another very cool cat.. I sweated a lot of the Cooney-Walden match at the DCC with Patcheye an Groundhog. Jack plays so freakin good it's sick!!! At one point on four consecutive innings the three of us all looked at each other and said "That was the best move I ever saw!"... Jack just kept coming with them and made it look so damn easy it was pathetic... I've seen all of the top players play 1P and Jack is the best mover I ever seen, bar none. Jack spent all those years under the radar and I often wondered... Did Jack play better 1P when he was in his prime or now? Keep'em coming!
Saw
The Saw said:
Hard to say about Jack, because he is so unique. He was the real pool hustler of all time. Sneaking into town, hanging around and taking off the mark for huge scores. No one else did it like him.
How good did he play. In my estimation, Jack was second only to Ronnie in his heyday. Probably only a few players like Artie and Bugs and Kelly would have stood a chance against him.
But Jack was way to smart to play these guys. Hell, he never came around a tournament for over 20 years, and over half the top players did not know what he looked like. Now, that's a pool hustler!
Jack's game has slipped, like everyone else nearing 60. But I wouldn't bet against him if I saw him in action. By the way, I had a nice little piece of that score with Walden in Derby City. Mark Betor laid off about about
10-15K of the 50,000 bet.
little al
ok, this is my all time favorite thread, easily. thanks to all for the cecil info, great stuff.
also loved the cooney stuff, would love to hear more. he has always been one of my favorite players.
one more name to throw out there that i always have trouble getting info on from the source..... al romero.
ok, this is my all time favorite thread, easily. thanks to all for the cecil info, great stuff.
also loved the cooney stuff, would love to hear more. he has always been one of my favorite players.
one more name to throw out there that i always have trouble getting info on from the source..... al romero.
enzo said:
Al was a good little roadman. He was tough to beat, and played just about anyone. Known as a long player. I remember him gambling with Ronnie at his peak and getting like 10-8 and 9-7, and it was close.
Definitely a serious player. Beat Efren only a few years ago when Efren tried to give him 11-5 at Hard Times.
I didn't realize I was in the presence of greatness at the time. I was attending the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music then. Played pool & 3C mostly over at UC. Do you remember the old room down on Vine St? I think they only had5-6 tables. That was my first exposure to one hole. In 1962 I was a pretty good shot maker; but an older guy at that room asked me if I'd like to play a game where all I had to do was make 8 balls in one corner pocket before he made 8 in the other. I readily accepted for $2 a game. Well, he tortured me for about an hour before I became embarrassed enough to quit. Hell, I never heard about Johnston City going on all through the time I lived in Cincinnati! You remember that communication was practically non-existent in those days. Mostly word-of-mouth stuff.jay helfert said:
Doc
I knew it would come up about when Willie spotted Nickie Vach the 5 Ball. Nickie was a One Pocket player and any real good 9 Ball player could have given him big weight. I got real tired of arguing about this some years ago. But I'll do this one last time.
There are only two barometers for gauging pool greatness, tournament play and gambling. Practice and conjecture don't count. Lassiter dominated nine ball for 30 or 40 years and played everybody. He gave top players the 7 and the 6 ball and they couldn't win. Watchers-on would bet you Wimpy was out before the break. Today's 9 Ball champions have never averaged 50 per cent being out from the break. Mosconi wouldn't play top players for money and he NEVER won a 9 Ball event. What else do you need?
There are only two barometers for gauging pool greatness, tournament play and gambling. Practice and conjecture don't count. Lassiter dominated nine ball for 30 or 40 years and played everybody. He gave top players the 7 and the 6 ball and they couldn't win. Watchers-on would bet you Wimpy was out before the break. Today's 9 Ball champions have never averaged 50 per cent being out from the break. Mosconi wouldn't play top players for money and he NEVER won a 9 Ball event. What else do you need?
Al Romero
When I was still living in So. CA & hanging around Hard Times in Bellflower, I was playing in the Weds. night 9 ball tournament when a black guy came in looking for some one pocket action. Al played him for $500 a game. The guy won the break and laid down a perfect break. Al owed three balls before he played a legal safe. Al quit after one game and we found out the player was Bugs. I asked Al why he would play a stranger for $500 and his reply was a classic. "$500 was all I was going to lose, and what if the guy was a sucker". After we found out who it was, they matched up again with Al getting 9 to 7 for $300 a game & Bugs won a few more games. John Henderson
When I was still living in So. CA & hanging around Hard Times in Bellflower, I was playing in the Weds. night 9 ball tournament when a black guy came in looking for some one pocket action. Al played him for $500 a game. The guy won the break and laid down a perfect break. Al owed three balls before he played a legal safe. Al quit after one game and we found out the player was Bugs. I asked Al why he would play a stranger for $500 and his reply was a classic. "$500 was all I was going to lose, and what if the guy was a sucker". After we found out who it was, they matched up again with Al getting 9 to 7 for $300 a game & Bugs won a few more games. John Henderson