When to tell a player he is on 2....

[John Brumback]

Jay, I usually find your comments to be accurate but unless you can site something that proves your stance on this I'll have to agree with everything I've ever seen on the topic that, you must tell your opponent when it's his inning that "he's on 2" and make sure he acknowledges. Telling him when he commits the second foul is just a courtesy to make sure you're on the same page, the one that counts is when he approaches the table to shoot.

Sherm

Excactly Sherm,I couldn't agree more.That right there Is the way It's played folks.Or the way It supposed to be played.John B.

 

[Jadssons]

I havent read through this whole thread, but you should tell your opponent he is on 2 fouls when he is walking to the table for his inning. Also, making sure he acknowledges it. JMO.

 

[John Brumback]

Sherm, I can cite thirty years of working tournaments as my best reference. In all those years one warning has been sufficient to let a player know he's on TWO. I have never seen ANY circumstance where a player needed to be warned again after he was already warned once earlier. These are simply not the rules we have played tournament pool by all these years. Once again, a warning is a warning, PERIOD!

If this situation ever came up (and it hasn't yet) in a tournament that I was working, I would ask both players if the player on two fouls had been warned. It they both answer affirmatively, then the third foul would be enforced and BIH given. Pretty easy call in my book.

Yes Jay,that can work but In my short career I have seen It come up quite of few times.Mine and Sherm's way,you'll have way less arguments.
Respectfully,John B.

 

[John Brumback]

The rules dictate a different result and they were enforced that way a few years back in the World Straight Pool Championships.

Dechaine warned Schmidt he was on two, then Dechaine got up and ran a bunch of balls. Schmidt came to the table and scratched. Dechaine said that's three. Schmidt said omg, you are right. Then he says, wait a minute, did you warn me? Long story short, the tournament director came over, asked if John was warned after Mike's last turn, and ruled that the warning was insufficient and that John was only on two.

I think it was the same year, Alan Hopkins was on two with Ortmann. I believe Hopkins jumped to the table after Ortmann was done and shot quickly. It was a foul and would have been a third foul but Ortmann had not warned him, so it was only counted as Hopkins second.

Tough rulings. It happens in our leagues once in a while.

I usually try to educate my opponent by saying "Isn't there something you wanted to tell me?"

Yes,That's the way It's played.I've seen that happen a bunch.It's a good rule and I like It.John B.

 

[blah blah]

okay, well, [insert a debatable number from zero to majority here] seems to think there should now be two "two foul warnings"- one right after the 2nd foul happens, and then another one right before the fouler shoots again.

So I'm going to make up a "You're on two" song to sing while I shoot in the interim, to go between the two warnings- just make sure the guy really knows he's on two.

you're on two,
whatcha gonna do
when I hook you
i'm gonna win,
cuz you're on two,
whatcha gonna do...

something like that.

 

[cuesmith]

Sherm, I can cite thirty years of working tournaments as my best reference. In all those years one warning has been sufficient to let a player know he's on TWO. I have never seen ANY circumstance where a player needed to be warned again after he was already warned once earlier. These are simply not the rules we have played tournament pool by all these years. Once again, a warning is a warning, PERIOD!

If this situation ever came up (and it hasn't yet) in a tournament that I was working, I would ask both players if the player on two fouls had been warned. It they both answer affirmatively, then the third foul would be enforced and BIH given. Pretty easy call in my book.

Maybe that's a West Coast way of playing Jay, but that's not how it's done in the Midwest, North & South. LOL Obviously it's a contentious situation that is played differently in different locations. Always good to see what the "house rules" are but I'm sure that they explain it the way I stated every year at the Derby, during the players meeting. I've even asked the question personally because I know some folks feel the way you do. I'll check at the Open in a few weeks to see how it's played there.

 

[The Chinchilla]

The rules dictate a different result and they were enforced that way a few years back in the World Straight Pool Championships.

Dechaine warned Schmidt he was on two, then Dechaine got up and ran a bunch of balls. Schmidt came to the table and scratched. Dechaine said that's three. Schmidt said omg, you are right. Then he says, wait a minute, did you warn me? Long story short, the tournament director came over, asked if John was warned after Mike's last turn, and ruled that the warning was insufficient and that John was only on two.

I think it was the same year, Alan Hopkins was on two with Ortmann. I believe Hopkins jumped to the table after Ortmann was done and shot quickly. It was a foul and would have been a third foul but Ortmann had not warned him, so it was only counted as Hopkins second.

Tough rulings. It happens in our leagues once in a while.

I usually try to educate my opponent by saying "Isn't there something you wanted to tell me?"

I really just wanted to repost these fine thoughts. I have never been comfortable not telling my opponent he's on 2 just before he shoots, and this poster has cited some great reasons why this is probably prudent.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I'm not sure why people keep saying this. THIS is the ENTIRE point of the rule.... the player who is trying to get a guy on 3, it is HIS responsibility to remember and tell the guy.

The problem I have with that is this- why should the person who *isn't* committing a foul, even after telling his opponent he is on two fouls, be penalized? The person who fouls should be responsible IMO

I think any reminder after the 2nd foul occurs is more than enough. This is my humble opinion so please don't flame me :smile:

 

[TheNewSharkster]

When to tell your opponent he's on 2 ....

That's simple. On his backstroke. :thumbup:

HAHA!! I love this post. Glad I wasn't drinking soda when I read this :thumbup:

 

[blah blah]

I agree wholeheartedly with Jay.

Two warnings sounds rude, and then to warn right before the fouler shoots seems like a mean little mind game... But Cuesmith may well be right that it's a West coast way of playing.

So I thought of another refrain for my new "You're on Two" Between Two Warnings song, for when the other repetition needs some spicing up:

You can't kick!
You can't shoot a lick!
Whatchoo doin, holding that stick?

You're on two.,
Whatcha gonna do...


it's a slow day.

 

[Mickey Qualls]

okay, well, the majority seems to think there should now be two "two foul warnings"- one right after the 2nd foul happens, and then another one right before the fouler shoots again.

So I'm going to make up a "You're on two" song to sing while I shoot in the interim, to go between the two warnings- just make sure the guy really knows he's on two.

you're on two,
whatcha gonna do
when I hook you
i'm gonna win,
cuz you're on two,
whatcha gonna do...

something like that.

Maybe to the tune of Inner Circle's "Bad Boys" (the C.O.P.S. theme).....

On two, on two,
Whatcha gonna shoot,
To tell you you're on two, I gotta holler and hoot,

You gonna go and sit in your chair,
But I gotta tell you what you just did there,
I'm steppin' to the table to play my game,
If I get jammed up, I'm gonna do the same,

On two, on two,
Whatcha gonna do,
Whatcha gonna do when I three-foul you...

Or something like that

 

[FranCrimi]

okay, well, the majority seems to think there should now be two "two foul warnings"- one right after the 2nd foul happens, and then another one right before the fouler shoots again.

So I'm going to make up a "You're on two" song to sing while I shoot in the interim, to go between the two warnings- just make sure the guy really knows he's on two.

you're on two,
whatcha gonna do
when I hook you
i'm gonna win,
cuz you're on two,
whatcha gonna do...

something like that.

Sorry, did I miss something? I can't even find where one person says there should be two -- two-foul warnings. What majority?

 

[jay helfert]

Maybe that's a West Coast way of playing Jay, but that's not how it's done in the Midwest, North & South. LOL Obviously it's a contentious situation that is played differently in different locations. Always good to see what the "house rules" are but I'm sure that they explain it the way I stated every year at the Derby, during the players meeting. I've even asked the question personally because I know some folks feel the way you do. I'll check at the Open in a few weeks to see how it's played there.

Sherm, with all due respect, I have officiated for the last thirty years at tournaments all across the U.S. and even internationally. Over 200 at last count that would be considered major events. Most of these were either 9-Ball, Ten Ball or One Pocket tournaments. I have yet to have a problem with the two shot warning rule such as has been described here. But maybe I'm overdue.

Of course there have been instances where a player simply forgot to warn his opponent that he/she was on two fouls, and then they fouled for the third time. In this case the ruling is that the player is still on two fouls and must be warned of that fact. There has NEVER been a problem in all my experience about when the warning was given. Again it's pretty simple, was the player warned or were they not warned. I'm guessing that about half the time (or more) in a 9-Ball match, the incoming player will warn their opponent immediately after the second foul. They are not required to warn them again prior to their turn, if they have already been warned. If the incoming player forgets, it's their own fault. I've seen this happen and the offending player never puts up a beef when they've forgotten they're on two. They usually will sheepishly admit that they were warned.

I will be honest that I've done very few Straight Pool tournaments and I can see where a problem could arise, especially after a player makes a long run. I suspect more often than not, the two foul warning comes after a series of safeties, so there is no long run between fouls. I'm not saying this is always the case, but my limited experience at 14.1 tells me this is often the case.

Of course, that doesn't mean the WPA or whomever hasn't made a new rule about this. I don't agree with a lot of their "new" rules and no one has ever seen fit to include me on their mailing list, so I'm not always aware of any rule changes. I've offered my services to the rules committee and as yet no one has ever contacted me. If this is in fact a new rule that a player may be warned only before they shoot, then I would suggest that it is a bad rule. If it ain't broke don't fix it. :smile:

 

[D_Lewis]

Tell him/her after the second foul is made and before you shoot.

Generally the rule is that you tell the player before they shoot, not after their second foul. If they're on two and you run out, what sense does it make to tell them at that point?

 

[blah blah]

Sorry, did I miss something? I can't even find where one person says there should be two -- two-foul warnings. What majority?

Slow day or not, I'm not going to read through five pages of debate, gather a tally, and cite sources. But I'll take your word for it that you did read through it all again, and have edited my post to be more general.

 

[RogerO]

Sorry, did I miss something? I can't even find where one person says there should be two -- two-foul warnings. What majority?

I wouldn't call it a majority, but I said it in post 2, JBKY in 42 and Bob Jewett in post 51. See my reasoning. It's based mainly on my 14.1 experience where, as you well know, a lot of time can pass sitting in the chair and memories fade as time passes.

I certainly agree that one warning right after the 2nd foul should suffice and the onus should be on the person on 2 to remember it. But the way to avoid controversy and lost memory, is to give both warnings.

Roger

 

[John Brumback]

I wouldn't call it a majority, but I said it in post 2, JBKY in 42 and Bob Jewett in post 51. See my reasoning. It's based mainly on my 14.1 experience where, as you well know, a lot of time can pass sitting in the chair and memories fade as time passes.

I certainly agree that one warning right after the 2nd foul should suffice and the onus should be on the person on 2 to remember it. But the way to avoid controversy and lost memory, is to give both warnings.

Roger

Thanks for the mention.I guess I'm a rules freak but I've been burnt by so many so called pros over the years that I just like to have every single base covered.And this way covers all the bases.I don't know how many arguments I've seen over the years to where the player said...I don't know If I was on two or was that the last game.Or..no I made a good hit that last shot.Or ,well,you get my point by now.Sorry for rambling.Yes two warnings should do It.But one right before he shoots "will" do It.If more people had a clue how many moves you can get pulled on ya In the big arena,they would think twice.Now playin jolly pool..nothing matters really.Thanks again,John Brumback

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Generally the rule is that you tell the player before they shoot, not after their second foul. If they're on two and you run out, what sense does it make to tell them at that point?

This is an interesting point and brings up the question of exactly when is a player on two fouls. Is he on two fouls at the moment of the second infraction or is he really only on two when it is his turn again?

In any event all the points of view are just opinions and what should or shouldn't the rule be. But there is no debate about what the rule IS (WSR, anyway). You must inform your opponent when it is his turn before he shoots. It is pretty clear:

6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls
If a player fouls three times without making an intervening legal shot, it is a serious foul. In games scored by the rack, such as nine ball, the fouls must be in a single rack. Some games such as eight ball do not include this rule.
The referee must warn a shooter who is on two fouls when he comes to the table that he is on two fouls. Otherwise a possible third foul will be considered to be only the second.

Perhaps there is some debate when a ref isn't present but I think it is generally accepted that in the absence of a referee you as the opposing player are required to make the notification in accordance with this rule. My basis for this is the WPA regulations related to area referees, where there is no ref presiding solely to the specific match:

5. Playing with an “Area” Referee
It may be that a tournament is being played with “area” referees who are each responsible for several tables and there is no referee constantly at each table. In this case, the players are still expected to observe all the rules of the game. The recommended way to conduct play in this situation is as follows.
The non-shooting player will perform all of the duties of the referee...

The moment your inning ends you are the non-shooting player and are therefore the defacto ref at the time the rules call for the notification.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :grin:

 

[alstl]

Well, no, actually. The way to avoid arguments is to do as JBKY suggests: note the second foul when it happens and as he approaches the table for possibly his third foul.

That is a true statement, but it is a lousy argument. His only argument is he is senile and can't remember he was warned so he has to be warned a second time. A person who will argue that will find something else to argue about.

 

[book collector]

Right before he/she completes their pre-shot routine.
Make sure you blurt it out loudly, so the counter person at the front of the poolhall actually jumps.
Then, go it to a great detailed description of your chronic spastic colon.

I played those guys too!
There must be hundreds of them that read the rule that way.
They are the same guys that call balls frozen just before you pull the trigger.
After you have been lining the shot up for 2 minutes.
I think there should be laws in place, that allow you to legally stab these people in a non lethal place when they do this
I'm not sure if I ever would , but it would be nice to have the option.