When my opponent fouls for the 2nd time,i grab bih,and if i dont win the game from here and my opponent gets another shot at the table,i will say as iam heading for my chair,real loud you r on 2!
When to tell a player he is on 2....
- Thread starter VillageSlim
- Start date
I don't want to play head games at the table and I don't want to be accused of playing head games so I hate to say anything to my opponent as they are beginning to prepare for their shot.... BUT, it's a necessary evil.
I think announcing they are on 2 is necessary immediately after the second foul is committed and then again when they next approach the table.
I think announcing they are on 2 is necessary immediately after the second foul is committed and then again when they next approach the table.
BCA rules state that the "referee" must tell the incoming player they are on 2 fouls, if no referee then the warning falls to the opposing player, ie "referee", so no warning on 2 fouls as the players inning starts, no 3rd foul.
Sounds effective, but the wrong person....it could give them an attitude when you reminded them, and they could turn on ya. A good person would NOT.
The debate ended with Buddy's post. That folks, is the official BCAPL ruling. I'm not sure about the problem with the WPA rule and will be interested in a more detailed explanation of it but the WSR's seem pretty clear about it as well:
"The referee must warn a shooter who is on two fouls when he comes to the table that he is on two fouls. Otherwise a possible third foul will be considered to be only the second."
Seems like it's the same rule to me.
The only problem I have with the rule is that the notification might be construed by the player in peril as a sharking tactic, even if it isn't. I mean don't wait for the player to be down on his shot to tell him, LOL. Usually as soon as my inning is over and my competitor is getting out of his chair I will say something like "The rules require me to notify you that you are on two fouls." This way it doesn't sound like I'm twisting the knife or anything. I need to tell him but I don't need to sound like an A-hole.
"The referee must warn a shooter who is on two fouls when he comes to the table that he is on two fouls. Otherwise a possible third foul will be considered to be only the second."
Seems like it's the same rule to me.
The only problem I have with the rule is that the notification might be construed by the player in peril as a sharking tactic, even if it isn't. I mean don't wait for the player to be down on his shot to tell him, LOL. Usually as soon as my inning is over and my competitor is getting out of his chair I will say something like "The rules require me to notify you that you are on two fouls." This way it doesn't sound like I'm twisting the knife or anything. I need to tell him but I don't need to sound like an A-hole.
The official was correct. You must tell him when it becomes his turn at the table, not when it's still your turn.
Extended official BCAPL rsponse
OK - sorry for the delay - home now and can relax for a minute...
Here's the reason that the BCAPL requires the warning to be delivered upon the beginning of the player's inning:
1. The same procedure was desired for all games and circumstances;
2. In 14.1, or in any game in the event of a time-out or unforseen administrative delay (lights going out, etc), it is very possible that an lenghty period may exist between the comission of the second foul and the beginning of the player's next inning - it easily could be half an hour or more. And in that case a player could easily forget the foul count.
Please note that there is no prohibition against notifying the player upon commission of the second foul. That's perfectly OK if you want to do it in a sportsmanlike manner, but it does not relieve you (or the referee) of the requirement to issue the warning again, be it 10 seconds, 10 minutes, or an hour and 10 minutes later.
Now the problem with WSR 6.14. Here is the sentence with the problem:
"The referee must warn a shooter who is on two fouls when he comes to the table that he is on two fouls."
The way the sentence is constructed, the entire phrase "with two fouls when he comes to the table" modifes the object "shooter". So all the sentence does is identify the object "shooter with two fouls when he comes to the table" and require the referee to warn the object, but as constructed, there is no actual requirement concerning the timing of the warning. In the progression of the game, the object "shooter with two fouls when he comes to the table" becomes exactly that as soon as the second foul is committed, so if the referee were to warn them at that point, the requirement of the exact syntax of WSR 6.14 would be met.
If the WPA's intention is to require the warning to be issued at the beginning of the shooter's inning, the sentence sould read (among several more correct possibilities):
"At the beginning of an inning for a shooter who is on two fouls, the referee must warn them that they are on two fouls."
Again, that is only one possible fix among many.
So in the real world, since the WPA does not offer any explanatory or expanded material of any kind that I am aware of, it could be correctly argued by a player that the timing is open to interpretation. And since the WPA maintains no training program, it is a very distinct possibility that referees and TD might have differing opinions. It is also an enhanced possibility that ESL players, or those who speak no English whose interpreters may well look to the specific syntax of the current WSR 6.14, may rightfully find no specific requirement concerning the issuance of the two-foul warning.
All that having been said, I believe that the prevailing wisdom among experienced referees is that the warning must be given upon the approach to the table. And that is what I would do in a WSR situation unless otherwise instructed by a TD or Administrative Authority. In any event, that timing completely short-circuits the "I forgot" argument.
And for any player that feels they are being sharked by the warning at the beginning of the inning, I offer two solutions:
1. Read the rules AND ask the TD about the required timing BEFORE the tournament. Then you will be expecting it and it will not (read: should not) affect you;
2. Don't get on two fouls.
:smile:
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx
* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.
OK - sorry for the delay - home now and can relax for a minute...
Here's the reason that the BCAPL requires the warning to be delivered upon the beginning of the player's inning:
1. The same procedure was desired for all games and circumstances;
2. In 14.1, or in any game in the event of a time-out or unforseen administrative delay (lights going out, etc), it is very possible that an lenghty period may exist between the comission of the second foul and the beginning of the player's next inning - it easily could be half an hour or more. And in that case a player could easily forget the foul count.
Please note that there is no prohibition against notifying the player upon commission of the second foul. That's perfectly OK if you want to do it in a sportsmanlike manner, but it does not relieve you (or the referee) of the requirement to issue the warning again, be it 10 seconds, 10 minutes, or an hour and 10 minutes later.
Now the problem with WSR 6.14. Here is the sentence with the problem:
"The referee must warn a shooter who is on two fouls when he comes to the table that he is on two fouls."
The way the sentence is constructed, the entire phrase "with two fouls when he comes to the table" modifes the object "shooter". So all the sentence does is identify the object "shooter with two fouls when he comes to the table" and require the referee to warn the object, but as constructed, there is no actual requirement concerning the timing of the warning. In the progression of the game, the object "shooter with two fouls when he comes to the table" becomes exactly that as soon as the second foul is committed, so if the referee were to warn them at that point, the requirement of the exact syntax of WSR 6.14 would be met.
If the WPA's intention is to require the warning to be issued at the beginning of the shooter's inning, the sentence sould read (among several more correct possibilities):
"At the beginning of an inning for a shooter who is on two fouls, the referee must warn them that they are on two fouls."
Again, that is only one possible fix among many.
So in the real world, since the WPA does not offer any explanatory or expanded material of any kind that I am aware of, it could be correctly argued by a player that the timing is open to interpretation. And since the WPA maintains no training program, it is a very distinct possibility that referees and TD might have differing opinions. It is also an enhanced possibility that ESL players, or those who speak no English whose interpreters may well look to the specific syntax of the current WSR 6.14, may rightfully find no specific requirement concerning the issuance of the two-foul warning.
All that having been said, I believe that the prevailing wisdom among experienced referees is that the warning must be given upon the approach to the table. And that is what I would do in a WSR situation unless otherwise instructed by a TD or Administrative Authority. In any event, that timing completely short-circuits the "I forgot" argument.
And for any player that feels they are being sharked by the warning at the beginning of the inning, I offer two solutions:
1. Read the rules AND ask the TD about the required timing BEFORE the tournament. Then you will be expecting it and it will not (read: should not) affect you;
2. Don't get on two fouls.
:smile:
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx
* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.
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BALONEY! One more "official" who wants to let you know that he knows it all. If you warn him, you warn him, and that's it. Once is enough, I don't care when you do it, as long as it's before he shoots again. Tell that "official" to keep his day job.
Devious comes to mind.............:bow-down:
I'm confused as to what part of my post you were referring to.
Yes, of course in the absence of a referee, the players referee their own match. My point was that I think that telling the player immediately after they commit the 2nd foul should be sufficient. But according to World Standardized rules, which are BCA rules, (not BCAPL rules), you must inform your opponent after your inning and just before they are about to shoot their next inning.
That means in addition to your shooting at the table, you have to keep reminding yourself to tell your opponent that he is on 2 after your turn is over. That is unfair. The burden of remembering should be on the player who committed the fouls. So if you tell them immediately after the 2nd foul, they have to sit in the chair while you are shooting and remind themselves that when they approach the table they will be on 2.
And by the way, if someone is asking a question about a BCAPL rule, please write BCAPL and not BCA. It's been several years since they have not been under the same ownership. People really should know the difference by now.
BALONEY! One more "official" who wants to let you know that he knows it all. If you warn him, you warn him, and that's it. Once is enough, I don't care when you do it, as long as it's before he shoots again. Tell that "official" to keep his day job.
Beautiful!!! Straight talk. Thanks Jay.
WINNER comes to mind. (I have a decal/sticker that is on the rear view mirror of my hot rod.... Objects seen in this mirror are losing.) :groucho:
Can't argue that once SHOULD be enough and that we SHOULDN'T have to remember to say it but I'm paranoid enough to think I gotta cover my ass and tell'm twice. Such is the world I live in.
BALONEY! One more "official" who wants to let you know that he knows it all. If you warn him, you warn him, and that's it. Once is enough, I don't care when you do it, as long as it's before he shoots again. Tell that "official" to keep his day job.
Jay, I usually find your comments to be accurate but unless you can site something that proves your stance on this I'll have to agree with everything I've ever seen on the topic that, you must tell your opponent when it's his inning that "he's on 2" and make sure he acknowledges. Telling him when he commits the second foul is just a courtesy to make sure you're on the same page, the one that counts is when he approaches the table to shoot.
Sherm
I don't really see the problem. My opponent commits a foul, I take bih, I play safe, I turn around to him as he's approaching the table and say "you have two fouls". Not very complicated although I have always found it really stupid.
I don't know why I have to tell my oponent at all. Shouldn't it be his/her responsibility to understand what is happening in the game and to keep track of how many consecutive fouls they committed? I REALLY hate rules like this.
I don't know why I have to tell my oponent at all. Shouldn't it be his/her responsibility to understand what is happening in the game and to keep track of how many consecutive fouls they committed? I REALLY hate rules like this.
If I tell my opponent that he is on two fouls during my turn and he then proceeds to commit a foul he isn't really on 3?!? WTF has this world come to? This isn't rocket science and the responsibility to remember should be put on the guy who keeps committing fouls.
This does get confusing at times and it is complicated by the fact that the Billiard Congress doesn't seem to have any of its own written rules. The rules on their website anyway are on WPA letterhead. That's why when it comes to the rules I usually think in terms of BCAPL or WPA. As for APA rules, I wouldn't even consult them for anything outside of actual APA league play (and I don't play APA).
The BCA contributes to the writing of the WPA rules, but the BCA does not have its own rule set. That's the point of "World Standardized Rules". The intent is one set for everyone who plays pool.
It's even worse if you're playing 14.1. Imagine that your opponent just committed the 2nd foul. Now you get up and start running balls. Is it in the back of your mind all the time you're shooting to remember to tell your opponent he's on 2? Yes. Talk about distractions! If you forget, then he benefits. It's just a poorly thought out rule that the WPBA corrected years ago. I hope they didn't change it back or that subsequent administrations didn't realize it had been changed.
The problem with not telling your opponent at all is that they could disagree if you call them on the 3rd foul and it could lead to a dispute which becomes your word against theirs. If they acknowledge they're on 2 then there is no dispute.
I actually think the rule should read that the person who fouled twice must acknowledge it. That's it. So if they turn to you after the 2nd foul and say, "I'm on two," then you shouldn't have to even say anything.
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