When will Fargo outgrow the sandbaggers?

[AtLarge]

DCC 9-Ball has match winners, no scores. We do get those in as single games--just the last game, essentially.

You could pick up some more of the DCC 9-Ball match scores from these stats threads:

2018: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=468558
2017: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=445680
2016: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=417901
2015: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=389304
2014: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=350751

 

[AF pool guy]

This has not been our experience. And it is something we are monitoring. In fact we will do an analysis.



There are many, many players with no games in the system or few games in the system who have done nothing wrong and in fact may have been loyal BCAPL players playing league every year for 10 years. When such a player enters, CSI will assign or review a starter rating based on whatever information is available--league stats, league operator, google, whatever. The players don't just enter at whatever starter-rating happened to be in the system.



When all is said and done, let's say a division has one third established players, one third players with NO games (play by starter rating), and one third players with some but fewer that 200 games in the system. Success would be the pool of players who cash fit that same ratio. And if the players in the money across the board deviate from that ratio, we want it to be in the direction that unestablished players are less likely rather than more likely to finish in the money.



This is the kind of analysis we did for the Western BCA event a few months ago. It worked out fine there. If anything the starter-ratings had been set a little too high on average because those players cashed at a notably lower rate than expected.

Nevertheless, you are sure to see the variation between expected and actual performance increase (both better and worse than expected) as their robustness decreases. It’s a defining characteristic of the system.

If you had a system for assigning starter ratings that produced a smaller standard deviation between predicted and actual results than the pool of robustly rated folks, that would imply that the Fargo skeptics are right and we should be using that system instead.

I don’t believe folks can sandbag your system, it just needs data for the newcomers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[JC]

I don't play league but imo as much information that is entered in fargorate there is
several times that amount that doesn't get entered. There are weekly and modnthly
tournaments played all the time that don't get entered and probably never will be entered
For example the room where I play most of my tournaments at doesn't send anything in.

Why should the guy keep up with scores and then submit to fargorate when he has 2
tournaments a week. He has nothing to gain by doing it. He spends all night 2 nights a
week putting on these tournaments, he has a business to run to feed his family.

The deal is supposed to be like this in order to work.

Fargorate provides some really easy to use bracket software that helps the tournament director run his tournament in a quick and orderly fashion and saves him time and the entering of the scores is incidental to it's use. In other words it's easier to run the little tournament with the software and a laptop then to use paper and pencil. This is not currently available so all these pool games continue unreported.

JC

 

[couldnthinkof01]

Having a national tournament governed by a system that
is not used or reported or whatever to establish players
wanting to be in said big tournament is silly to me.
Not established, can’t play.
Unless your just trying to fill the coffers I don’t get it.

Play league> get an established rating> go to “the big one”

 

[9BallKY]

Having a national tournament governed by a system that
is not used or reported or whatever to establish players
wanting to be in said big tournament is silly to me.
Not established, can’t play.
Unless your just trying to fill the coffers I don’t get it.

Play league> get an established rating> go to “the big one”

I work at night so I couldn't play league if I wanted to. Also there's no leagues within 2 hrs of my house so why would someone drive 2 hrs to play a few games of pool. The league I know also isn't reported to fargorate

 

[couldnthinkof01]

I work at night so I couldn't play league if I wanted to. Also there's no leagues within 2 hrs of my house so why would someone drive 2 hrs to play a few games of pool. The league I know also isn't reported to fargorate

So you think it’s a fair playing field for all the people
that pay dues and get established ratings to let a
random to come in without doing that?

What is the point of handicapping it then?

Sorry but I don’t fully understand the case your trying
to make.

 

[BRussell]

Fargorate provides some really easy to use bracket software that helps the tournament director run his tournament in a quick and orderly fashion and saves him time and the entering of the scores is incidental to it's use.

Is that right? I know they’re working on the league software, but I didn’t know they had tournament software ready to go.

 

[9BallKY]

So you think it’s a fair playing field for all the people
that pay dues and get established ratings to let a
random to come in without doing that?

What is the point of handicapping it then?

Sorry but I don’t fully understand the case your trying
to make.

Not saying it's fair. My point is there's always going to be people that don't have a fargorate. Even if you wanted one where I live it would be almost impossible to get one
For example I've played for years all over the state and some in other states and I don't have a single game in the system. So how many years would it take to get an established rating at that pace?

I already had this discussion in another thread but this is the reason fargorate can't be used to accurately handicap any tournament. To many players with little or no dat. I think fargorate is a good system but it's only as good as the information submitted to it and most information never gets submitted

 

[couldnthinkof01]

I have cats that need herding.

 

[hang-the-9]

Of all the matches I watched in the handicapped events and the minis at nationals this year, I would say 75% of them were 50-100 points under their skill. My son and I were spotting 5-3 in the minis to players that would not just run out balls well but do so with good position and knowledge of the layout, which is a good way to see who can play and who is just happening to make random shots that day.

One guy my son was spotting 5-3 to was probably an A player, he said that was his first event. My son is a 560 which would mean this A player was put in as a 400 somethng.

Even in league playoffs, in one of my matches I was playing a guy that was a 460 (which is a C+ at best), I broke dry, he ran out, then broke and ran out on his turn. I have never seen a C+ run two racks in a row in 30 years of playing. This guy was also bragging how he beats all the best players. Well, yea you are missing at least 50 points in your ranking LOL

Fargo works great with good data, but seems good data is hard to get into the system.

It gets REALLY annoying having to spot players that play as good or better than you.

 

[nine_ball6970]

Nevertheless, you are sure to see the variation between expected and actual performance increase (both better and worse than expected) as their robustness decreases. It’s a defining characteristic of the system.

If you had a system for assigning starter ratings that produced a smaller standard deviation between predicted and actual results than the pool of robustly rated folks, that would imply that the Fargo skeptics are right and we should be using that system instead.

I don’t believe folks can sandbag your system, it just needs data for the newcomers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Look at Joe Pickens' post earlier in this thread for sandbagging.

It is easy to sandbag Fargo, if you want to, in leagues especially. Bigger buyin tournaments it wouldn't make sense to throw games.

 

[JC]

Is that right? I know they’re working on the league software, but I didn’t know they had tournament software ready to go.

Read the first sentence in my post so it's in context.

BTW this is the model Carfax uses to build their data base. Why else would private business' share their data?

JC

 

[mikepage]

The deal is supposed to be like this in order to work.

Fargorate provides some really easy to use bracket software that helps the tournament director run his tournament in a quick and orderly fashion and saves him time and the entering of the scores is incidental to it's use. In other words it's easier to run the little tournament with the software and a laptop then to use paper and pencil. This is not currently available so all these pool games continue unreported.

JC

There are a couple good options now for the small weekly tournament.

We've entered just in the last 4 weeks more than 500 of these tournaments from Alberta, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Hawaii, Iowa, Indiana, Kansas, Massachusetts, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, North Dakota, New Hampshire, Nevada, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, and Washington. It is about 20 tournaments a day, 7 days a week.

One option is challonge.com. It is free and pretty straightforward. Share the bracket with full names and scores publicly (e.g., in a facebook group in your area or a poolroom website) and send us your username. We will monitor it for new activity.

A second option is Ingenpool (budtour). Though this has a modest cost, there are some nice features like table management and remembering your players from week to week.

 

[JC]

There are a couple good options now for the small weekly tournament.

We've entered just in the last 4 weeks more than 500 of these tournaments from Alberta, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Hawaii, Iowa, Indiana, Kansas, Massachusetts, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, North Dakota, New Hampshire, Nevada, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, and Washington. It is about 20 tournaments a day, 7 days a week.

One option is challonge.com. It is free and pretty straightforward. Share the bracket with full names and scores publicly (e.g., in a facebook group in your area or a poolroom website) and send us your username. We will monitor it for new activity.

A second option is Ingenpool (budtour). Though this has a modest cost, there are some nice features like table management and remembering your players from week to week.

What I envision is like your second option with integrated fair match handicapping and table management and player memory etc. And then when the tourney is over one click uploading to fargorate. IMO you can't rely on third party anything if you want to dominate the scene. Make Fargorate "it" period.

Maybe you should collaborate with (ie hire) Ingenpool to put it together for you since theirs works well? Easy for me to say since I'm not footing the bill but if you want maximum data from the pool world something more needs to be done. Or the cycle this thread is about may continue forever.

JC

 

[mikepage]

What I envision is like your second option with integrated fair match handicapping and table management and player memory etc. And then when the tourney is over one click uploading to fargorate. [...]

Yes. That and more is in the works.

 

[AF pool guy]

Look at Joe Pickens' post earlier in this thread for sandbagging.



It is easy to sandbag Fargo, if you want to, in leagues especially. Bigger buyin tournaments it wouldn't make sense to throw games.

The OP’s premise is that players without established ratings dominate the lower divisions and I was providing an explanation for one reason that should be expected.

If a sandbagger plays 200 games of league play intentionally poorly. Say at a 400 rate. And they then go to a national tournament to try and cheese a win. To win they’re going to have to play and win a significant number of games playing at their real speed (say 550) which would stick out like a sore thumb. Mike shows us that the actual performance rating for established players tracks their expected performance very closely.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[BRussell]

Read the first sentence in my post so it's in context.

BTW this is the model Carfax uses to build their data base. Why else would private business' share their data?

JC

Oh I had missed your meaning. Yes, that would be cool, but it’s not available (yet?).

Challonge.com sounds like a good option for now. Ingenpool looks good I guess, but desktop computer software isn’t the best fit for a pool room - bringing a laptop isn’t usually ideal. Mobile apps or web apps with a good mobile interface have got to be the way to go.

I think local tournaments are really important for FargoRatings - 1) you get people who aren’t in league or aren’t in a CSI league, and 2) a player who wins several matches will probably get a lot more games than the handful you get on a typical league night.