Who benefits more from last pocket 8ball? Better players or bangers?
- Thread starter Push&Pool
- Start date
I'm no professional, but I don't think there's much about last pocket 8 ball that will improve anyone's game. We used to play 1 & 15 in the side and last pocket when I was a banger to extend the game and throw a little uncertainty into it. A higher skilled player would have the advantage against a lower skilled player just like normal. It can make it a little tougher to get out in one inning, so it gives equal players a turn at the table more often. More so the worse they both are.
Come on dude, only a banger would ask such a question!
Just kidding ofcourse, Better player will win when playing last pocket 8 ball!
Don't worry, I am a banger and I'm proud of that
but my question was, if in normal 8ball the chances of the banger to win against a good player are 1 out of 10, then in last pocket version will those chances rise to like 1/5 or drop to, let's say, 1/20? In other words, does last pocket 8 ball partially even the playing field or does it increase the skill gap further?
Without thinking about it too much my initial reaction is the banger has a better chance because he has more opportunity to play catch up. And he can often times move the 8 ball with a combo or leave the CB out of position to keep his opponent from having a shot at his last pocket while he's trying to get rid of some of his balls. It also makes the break and run much more difficult for the better player.
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Don't worry, I am a banger and I'm proud of that
1/20, last pocket 8 ball is more skilled then straight 8 ball, so it will make the better player, that much better!
Absolutely, Richie.
Last-pocket 8-ball adds more skill to the game....
....thus favoring the more skillful player.
On the other hand, there could be some interesting handicap props......
....the best player gives up more pockets to the lesser player.
8-ball, unlike 9-ball, is hard to handicap by games and make it fair.
In 9-ball, the wild balls can overcome a good player.
In 8-ball, the games never seem enough......game after game, the banger makes some
balls which just makes it easier for the pro to run out.
The trouble with playing with a blindfold is.....
...if you're running out, the guy can take the money from the light-shade and walk out.
....and if you got a bad memory, you won't know who to go looking for.
Well, these were all my initial thoughts. However, as a purely last pocket player, I also had the feeling that I'm doing better by these rules than I would in normal 8ball. Something like dogsplayingpool described below. It's hard to tell, maybe it depends on the banger's strategy?
My opinion is that anything that allows a lesser player a better chance to get back to a table increases the lesser player's chance to win.
It's tough to compare a highly skilled vs banger, but it becomes easier to tell if the skillsets are closer. What would normally would be a blowout suddenly becomes a dogfight.
IMRO,
Freddie
It's tough to compare a highly skilled vs banger, but it becomes easier to tell if the skillsets are closer. What would normally would be a blowout suddenly becomes a dogfight.
IMRO,
Freddie
Any change that requires additional skills will generally increase the more skilled player's probability of winning.
An exception to that might be if the lesser skilled player is a far better 'mover'...though it can be very hard to defeat a hi-powered ball pocketer without making balls, coz that is how one wins a pool game.
An exception to that might be if the lesser skilled player is a far better 'mover'...though it can be very hard to defeat a hi-powered ball pocketer without making balls, coz that is how one wins a pool game.
From what I've experienced, complicating the game with a rule like that doesn't really impact the guy who already finds it complicated and lucks his way through games with bravado and self-confidence (the banger). But to the skilled player, who has studied the game and made strides to know and conquer its complexities, and has many things on his mind, adding a rule like last pocket 8 or bank the 8 will have much more impact on him. 'Course the banger will screw up too, but he already does that.
I'd say, relatively speaking, if the banger is beating him 1 in 10, he'll beat him 1 in 9. Just slightly more frequently due to more chances at the table.
Really depends on how weak the banger is and how strong the skilled player is.
I'd say, relatively speaking, if the banger is beating him 1 in 10, he'll beat him 1 in 9. Just slightly more frequently due to more chances at the table.
Really depends on how weak the banger is and how strong the skilled player is.
The answer is clearly... it depends.:smile:
It depends on how much better the better player is. Its easy to draw our own abstract vision of this hypothetical "better" player, and base our answer on that.
A much better player has the advantage, but IMO, a marginally better player may only be affording the lesser player more innings to win.
It depends on how much better the better player is. Its easy to draw our own abstract vision of this hypothetical "better" player, and base our answer on that.
A much better player has the advantage, but IMO, a marginally better player may only be affording the lesser player more innings to win.
Seriously Poolkiller, you don't ask questions about the game. You are always asking questions about the process.
The question you should be asking is, "How do I go about learning?" That's the only "process" question that should concern you.
The answer is, "Take a few lessons from a good instructor, read a couple books*, buy a decent cue, put your head down and practice. For the first 2 years, spend 75% of your pool time by yourself at the table practicing. For the first 2 years don't ask any questions on AZ. Only ask questions of your instructor."
* Phil Capelle's "Play Your Best Pool" and Ray Martin's "99 Critical Shots".
Fatz
A lesser ball pocketer might be able to overcome his opponent if he knows more about strategy.
The book Eight Ball Bible has a chapter on Last Pocket. In it, Givens says "The admonition not to shoot down to your last couple of balls and then miss counts tenfold in Last Pocket 8-ball. Unskilled players with an iota of comprehension of the nature of Last Pocket can easily frustrate champions who ignore this advice because it is often very easy to leave a player who has only one or two balls open, shots that do not lead to a last pocket. Running down to your last two or three balls without finishing the game usually means a loss against a knowledgeable opponent."
I've seen the same in 1 & 15 8-ball. Say I have solids. I initially put all of my attention to making the 1 ball and not leaving my opponent an easy road to the 15. I don't pocket other balls unless it's a pattern that leads to the 1. I keep playing safe while knocking the 1 ball into a position it can be pocketed. Then I'll pocket balls such that I can get shape on the 1. If you make your 1 or 15 first, the other player is at a big disadvantage because you can usually leave them without a shot on their ball. The worst thing to do is to pocket random balls and then leave yourself with only the 1 or 15.
The book Eight Ball Bible has a chapter on Last Pocket. In it, Givens says "The admonition not to shoot down to your last couple of balls and then miss counts tenfold in Last Pocket 8-ball. Unskilled players with an iota of comprehension of the nature of Last Pocket can easily frustrate champions who ignore this advice because it is often very easy to leave a player who has only one or two balls open, shots that do not lead to a last pocket. Running down to your last two or three balls without finishing the game usually means a loss against a knowledgeable opponent."
I've seen the same in 1 & 15 8-ball. Say I have solids. I initially put all of my attention to making the 1 ball and not leaving my opponent an easy road to the 15. I don't pocket other balls unless it's a pattern that leads to the 1. I keep playing safe while knocking the 1 ball into a position it can be pocketed. Then I'll pocket balls such that I can get shape on the 1. If you make your 1 or 15 first, the other player is at a big disadvantage because you can usually leave them without a shot on their ball. The worst thing to do is to pocket random balls and then leave yourself with only the 1 or 15.
I agree.
I think if you are a High C or better playing a high D or low C, it can and will slow down you runouts period. So the weaker player can have an advantage.
It's like not having a choice of solids or stripes after a great break, or not being able to carom a ball of your opponent's ball. These things slow down better play I think. And no punishment for fouling (ball in hand). Gives weaker players edges they don't deserve. I play at an Elks club with the "A Players" there
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