Your' So Right
You got that Right.
Kick Shot Bill CO
jrhendy said:
You got that Right.
Kick Shot Bill CO
Who Is Best Bar Box Player In Usa?
- Thread starter time_is_now
- Start date
Best 7'
Didn't really matter till the 60's, #1 David Matlock, #2 McCready but was always #1 (but the rest of the story got in the "way") then Benny the 'Goose' Conway ........ then FAT RANDY and all those like him but "under him" and so on. That's pretty much the way it is/was.time_is_now said:
OldHasBeen
Tom Ferry
Don't confuse the issue with facts.
Well - If your going to start using facts instead of opinions then -
I guess I'll have to give way to a higher authority & Shut The F Up.
TY & GL
hemicudas said:
Well - If your going to start using facts instead of opinions then -
I guess I'll have to give way to a higher authority & Shut The F Up.
TY & GL
Now, That's Funny..................
Now that's funny, Tom.
Boston Joey, though a hell of a bar box player, always wanted and needed weight from Keith.
I was in with Bob Dancer when he busted Benny (Goose) Conway in a bar called the Sonra lounge in Kenner, LA in 1977. Benny's game was similar to mine, except he played better than me, in that he could beat anyone on a given day but the next day the same guy might be able to spot Benny and win. Benny was a much fun guy to be around. Wonderful, dry wit. Benny would tell the funniest story and have everyone in the joint cracking up yet he would have a stone cold serious look on his face. I don't think I ever saw Benny laugh. Smile yes. If you knew Benny he took his Ernie Kovaks face and used it to the max.
I would tell you who just could be the best bar table 8 ball player in the country but he posts on this board,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and,,,,,,,,,,,,,he knows where I live.
OldHasBeen said:
Now that's funny, Tom.
Boston Joey, though a hell of a bar box player, always wanted and needed weight from Keith.
I was in with Bob Dancer when he busted Benny (Goose) Conway in a bar called the Sonra lounge in Kenner, LA in 1977. Benny's game was similar to mine, except he played better than me, in that he could beat anyone on a given day but the next day the same guy might be able to spot Benny and win. Benny was a much fun guy to be around. Wonderful, dry wit. Benny would tell the funniest story and have everyone in the joint cracking up yet he would have a stone cold serious look on his face. I don't think I ever saw Benny laugh. Smile yes. If you knew Benny he took his Ernie Kovaks face and used it to the max.
I would tell you who just could be the best bar table 8 ball player in the country but he posts on this board,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and,,,,,,,,,,,,,he knows where I live.
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Dave Matlock is a good friend of Keith's, and the first time I ever met Dave was at the U.S. Open. When his eyes met Keith's, they immediately hugged each other and had a very long chat. They hadn't seen each other for many years. Keith has a great deal of respect for Dave personally and as a player.
I cannot state who is the best bar box player in the USA. It is kind of ridiculous, in my most humble opinion, to rate players from the '60s like Vernon Elliott to players in the year 2005 like Jesse Bowman. They are all bar box champions.
It seems whenever these "Who's the best...?" threads come up, the answers are sometimes dependent on the poster's WISDOM -- key word here -- of all players who ever played the 7-foot table proficiently AND the geographical location where the poster lives.
It is impossible for a youngster 20-plus years old to know how well Vernon Elliott moved on a bar box. And for those who never saw "Keither with the Ether" in California, which includes me, I would think it would be impossible to judge his expertise and evaluate his skills and then compare them to another player.
So, in essence, I believe all of the players listed on this thread are the BEST at one time in their life, but to say one is better than the other is nothing more than a mini barkfest.
Picture of two Bar Box Champions below, Keith and Dave "The Maverick" Matlock!
JAM
I cannot state who is the best bar box player in the USA. It is kind of ridiculous, in my most humble opinion, to rate players from the '60s like Vernon Elliott to players in the year 2005 like Jesse Bowman. They are all bar box champions.
It seems whenever these "Who's the best...?" threads come up, the answers are sometimes dependent on the poster's WISDOM -- key word here -- of all players who ever played the 7-foot table proficiently AND the geographical location where the poster lives.
It is impossible for a youngster 20-plus years old to know how well Vernon Elliott moved on a bar box. And for those who never saw "Keither with the Ether" in California, which includes me, I would think it would be impossible to judge his expertise and evaluate his skills and then compare them to another player.
So, in essence, I believe all of the players listed on this thread are the BEST at one time in their life, but to say one is better than the other is nothing more than a mini barkfest.
Picture of two Bar Box Champions below, Keith and Dave "The Maverick" Matlock!
JAM
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Every word
Every word you say is true, JAM. But, a "Barkfest" without profanity and mean spiritedness is a hell of a lot of fun. That's why threads like this thrive. If a thread like this deteriorates to a point of being hateful I will be the first, maybe second, person gone. Also, threads like this hold the potential of putting money in the pockets of players like Dave, Jesse and even the Earthquake. People who sit on the rail and especially the ones who actually gamble want to know.
Like you say, you can never be sure if Vernon could have beaten David but it is possible to find out if Jesse can beat David, etal.
JAM said:Dave Matlock is a good friend of Keith's, and the first time I ever met Dave was at the U.S. Open. When his eyes met Keith's, they immediately hugged each other and had a very long chat. They hadn't seen each other for many years. Keith has a great deal of respect for Dave personally and as a player.
I cannot state who is the best bar box player in the USA. It is kind of ridiculous, in my most humble opinion, to rate players from the '60s like Vernon Elliott to players in the year 2005 like Jesse Bowman. They are all bar box champions.
It seems whenever these "Who's the best...?" threads come up, the answers are sometimes dependent on the poster's WISDOM -- key word here -- of all players who ever played the 7-foot table proficiently AND the geographical location where the poster lives.
It is impossible for a youngster 20-plus years old to know how well Vernon Elliott moved on a bar box. And for those who never saw "Keither with the Ether" in California, which includes me, I would think it would be impossible to judge his expertise and evaluate his skills and then compare them to another player.
So, in essence, I believe all of the players listed on this thread are the BEST at one time in their life, but to say one is better than the other is nothing more than a mini barkfest.
JAM
Every word you say is true, JAM. But, a "Barkfest" without profanity and mean spiritedness is a hell of a lot of fun. That's why threads like this thrive. If a thread like this deteriorates to a point of being hateful I will be the first, maybe second, person gone. Also, threads like this hold the potential of putting money in the pockets of players like Dave, Jesse and even the Earthquake. People who sit on the rail and especially the ones who actually gamble want to know.
Like you say, you can never be sure if Vernon could have beaten David but it is possible to find out if Jesse can beat David, etal.
Just out of curiosity, wouldn't the best big table player be the best barbox player? If I am not mistaken barboxes are much easier to play on. So if Efren played on a barbox, would that make him the best? I've talked to many pro players who have a high run of eight nine or 10 packs on a 9 foot table and have almost twice that on a bar table. That tells me barboxes are much easier to play on.
hemicudas said:
I can bark, too!
I don't know if Dave Matlock can beat Jesse Bowman in the year 2005, but I'm not sure if Jesse could have beaten Dave Matlock 20 years ago either!BTW, I've got a great Jesse Bowman picture, but I'm afraid to post it because he seems to remain under the radar screen and on the road. I haven't seen him compete in too many high-profile competitive events, but according to Keith -- and Keith does have wisdom about the bar table -- Jesse Bowman is the BEST currently. That's saying a lot, coming from Keith (IMO)!
Having said that, though, at the recent Super Billiards Expo on the 7-foot Diamond bar box, it was Keith who ran two 11's and one 10 the very first night and busted up the game. Jesse Bowman came to Valley Forge and played on the action table, but he wasn't able to string many runs together, for whatever reason. Does it mean Keith is a better bar box mechanic than Jesse? I think if the two of them were to match up, Keith in his infinite wisdom would ask for a little weight in the year 2005!
Could Jesse Bowman have beaten Keith in 1985? That's the $64,000 question, and I know the answer!
Another player's name who comes to mind for Top 10 Bar Box Players is Brandon Ashcroft. He exudes self-confidence and will step up to the plate with no fear on the bar table. He was barking at Keith at the SBE to post up 10 dimes and may the best man win. Because of tournament scheduling, the match never took off. However, Keith does have a raincheck to play Brandon sine die!
JAM
LastTwo said:
Sorry to burst your bubble, LastTwo, but you are so wrong. Good analogy, but absolutely false.
I can recite stories about Efren Reyes and Keith McCready, but I'm saving 'em for another day. To make a long story short, when Efren came to the States, he was well advised to stay away from Keith McCready on the bar table, and as much as Keith tried to get him there, Efren would only play him on the 9-foot table. Efren, in his infinite wisdom, made the correct decision.
JAM
As you know....
As you and Keith know, JAM, there is a big difference between bar box 9 ball and bar box 8 ball. I am not sure who is the best bar table 9 ball player today. I have my opinion but that's all it is. On the other hand, like you, JAM, I could post a picture of the guy I think plays the best bar table 8 ball in the country but 8 ball is more a scuffs game than 9 ball. 8 ball is played in every bar in the country and this guy has stayed off the radar screen for YEARS. I'm sure Keith remembers how much weight he could give Surfer Rod playing 9 ball on the bar table but Keith and many others would think twice before playing him 8 ball. Besides, like I said before, the guy knows where I live, LOL.
JAM said:I can bark, too!
BTW, I've got a great Jesse Bowman picture, but I'm afraid to post it because he seems to remain under the radar screen and on the road. I haven't seen him compete in too many high-profile competitive events, but according to Keith -- and Keith does have wisdom about the bar table -- Jesse Bowman is the BEST currently. That's saying a lot, coming from Keith (IMO)!
Having said that, though, at the recent Super Billiards Expo on the 7-foot Diamond bar box, it was Keith who ran two 11's and one 10 the very first night and busted up the game. Jesse Bowman came to Valley Forge and played on the action table, but he wasn't able to string many runs together, for whatever reason. Does it mean Keith is a better bar box mechanic than Jesse? I think if the two of them were to match up, Keith in his infinite wisdom would ask for a little weight in the year 2005!
Could Jesse Bowman have beaten Keith in 1985? That's the $64,000 question, and I know the answer!
Another player's name who comes to mind for Top 10 Bar Box Players is Brandon Ashcroft. He exudes self-confidence and will step up to the plate with no fear on the bar table. He was barking at Keith at the SBE to post up 10 dimes and may the best man win. Because of tournament scheduling, the match never took off. However, Keith does have a raincheck to play Brandon sine die!
JAM
As you and Keith know, JAM, there is a big difference between bar box 9 ball and bar box 8 ball. I am not sure who is the best bar table 9 ball player today. I have my opinion but that's all it is. On the other hand, like you, JAM, I could post a picture of the guy I think plays the best bar table 8 ball in the country but 8 ball is more a scuffs game than 9 ball. 8 ball is played in every bar in the country and this guy has stayed off the radar screen for YEARS. I'm sure Keith remembers how much weight he could give Surfer Rod playing 9 ball on the bar table but Keith and many others would think twice before playing him 8 ball. Besides, like I said before, the guy knows where I live, LOL.
August 1-7, 2006, $25,000 8-Ball Championship
On the horizon next year 2006, August 1-7, Allen Hopkins will host a $25,000 8-Ball Championship on the bar tables, $500 entry fee, in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania. For those who haven't been to the Valley Forge Conference Center, it is a fantastic venue, everything all under one roof, and do bring your walking shoes!
Unless struck by lightning, we will definitely be there. It will be interesting to see how many players show up for this event.
8-Ball is the most popular pocket billiards game in the States. I would venture to guess that there are MANY 8-ball players who will make this trek. Better give Surfer Rod a heads-up!
Phil Capelle has a new book out entitled "Play Your Best 8-Ball," which is very timely considering the game of 8-Ball is beginning to surface more on the tournament trail. When I began playing pool, it was 8-Ball on the bar table. Here's the link to the 8-ball book, a must-have in any pool library and maybe a secret weapon.
http://billiardspress.com/booksquicklook.html
JAM
hemicudas said:
On the horizon next year 2006, August 1-7, Allen Hopkins will host a $25,000 8-Ball Championship on the bar tables, $500 entry fee, in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania. For those who haven't been to the Valley Forge Conference Center, it is a fantastic venue, everything all under one roof, and do bring your walking shoes!
Unless struck by lightning, we will definitely be there. It will be interesting to see how many players show up for this event.
8-Ball is the most popular pocket billiards game in the States. I would venture to guess that there are MANY 8-ball players who will make this trek. Better give Surfer Rod a heads-up!
Phil Capelle has a new book out entitled "Play Your Best 8-Ball," which is very timely considering the game of 8-Ball is beginning to surface more on the tournament trail. When I began playing pool, it was 8-Ball on the bar table. Here's the link to the 8-ball book, a must-have in any pool library and maybe a secret weapon.
http://billiardspress.com/booksquicklook.html
JAM
JAM said:Sorry to burst your bubble, LastTwo, but you are so wrong. Good analogy, but absolutely false.
I can recite stories about Efren Reyes and Keith McCready, but I'm saving 'em for another day. To make a long story short, when Efren came to the States, he was well advised to stay away from Keith McCready on the bar table, and as much as Keith tried to get him there, Efren would only play him on the 9-foot table. Efren, in his infinite wisdom, made the correct decision.
JAM
Ain't it da truth. As well as Louie Roberts played the big table, Jimmy (Flyboy) Spears and Bill Stack busted him playing even on the bar box. I had part of Dan Louie when he busted him too.
I didn't play him on the bar box but played him on the big table in 1968. But he wasn't UJ - he was incognito as a drunk house painter with 100 bills hanging out his pocket (stapled to the pocket of course). After I won a few he wanted to double it ($1,000 or something like that)- we were chest to chest (of course it was more my chest to his waist-he was a big man) and I was looking up at him - I looked down thinking about the odds then told him I thought I would pass since his $500 shoes didn't quite go with the rest of his work clothes. 25 years later, I saw him in Reno at a tournament - he said "how is it going kid - Jackie Madden, Phoenix Arizona 1968".sjm said:
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com
Best Bar Box Player
As was said in an earlier post, these type threads are very interesting and informative as long as they don't become too argumentative or personal. Everone has a chance to voice support for their favorite player in their era and for the most part everyone is right (on a given day). People remember players whose name may otherwise never be mentioned such as my buddy Vernon Elliott. There is no written records on Vernon but all the players in his era knew who he was.
As was said in an earlier post, these type threads are very interesting and informative as long as they don't become too argumentative or personal. Everone has a chance to voice support for their favorite player in their era and for the most part everyone is right (on a given day). People remember players whose name may otherwise never be mentioned such as my buddy Vernon Elliott. There is no written records on Vernon but all the players in his era knew who he was.
OldHasBeen
Tom Ferry
Re-Post - (IMO)
Almost everyone (currently playing) that is mentioned in this thread is capable of "Hitting A Gear" that would defeat all the others. None of the mentioned players are intimidated by who is sitting (waiting for their shot) so it comes down to who hits their gear for that day.
The break plays a huge part in hitting that gear and all mentioned here have a great one.
Even a bar table tourny wouldn't decide (absolutely) who the best was. It would only determine who was the best for that short period of time.
The Bar Table Tourney I would Like To See Is - An international, invitational tourney consisting of the true consensus of "Who Is The Best". Each player would start with the same bankroll (? $10,000 ?) and "LET THE GAMES BEGIN".
Who Knows - It may take a day or a week - BUT - The player with all the CA$H (in the end) - "IS THE BEST"!
Helloooooo? - Is Greg Diamond "In The House"?
TY & GL
Almost everyone (currently playing) that is mentioned in this thread is capable of "Hitting A Gear" that would defeat all the others. None of the mentioned players are intimidated by who is sitting (waiting for their shot) so it comes down to who hits their gear for that day.
The break plays a huge part in hitting that gear and all mentioned here have a great one.
Even a bar table tourny wouldn't decide (absolutely) who the best was. It would only determine who was the best for that short period of time.
The Bar Table Tourney I would Like To See Is - An international, invitational tourney consisting of the true consensus of "Who Is The Best". Each player would start with the same bankroll (? $10,000 ?) and "LET THE GAMES BEGIN".
Who Knows - It may take a day or a week - BUT - The player with all the CA$H (in the end) - "IS THE BEST"!
Helloooooo? - Is Greg Diamond "In The House"?
TY & GL
Doug said:
Doug, Vernon Elliott is one of pool's unsung heroes, and sadly, his capabilities, personality, and expertise on a field of green are unknown to younger folk. He made quite an impression in Detroit. He is a kindred spirit to many a road player with the heart of a lion and eyes like an eagle, and a stand-up man to boot!
As I have stated in previous posts, there is no pool archives, and many of the champion players from days gone by are only known by those who were there. There was no Accu-Stats, ESPN, or AzBilliards providing data pertaining to these pool phenoms, and if there was, the Vernon Elliotts of the world would be well known.
I do have quite a collection of pool periodicals in my library. One in particular that I enjoy perusing is the National Billiard News. I think the National Billiard News may be the oldest pool print media in existence, going back to the '60s and still providing up-to-date happenings around the world even today.
Personally, I think the field was tougher back in the '80s than any other era. Randomly picking a 9-ball event from 1983, check out the names of the regulars on the tournament trail back then, in order of finish: Larry Hubbart, Jim Rempe, Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel, Richie Florence, Bob Hunter, Jack Breit, Keith McCready, Larry Hill, Rusty Brandmeyer, Howard Vickery, Bob Vanover, Louie Roberts, Dave Favor, Jay Swanson, Gilbert Martinez, Kim Davenport, Ronnie Allen. First place paid $9,200, the same and perhaps even more than what the average payout in pool is today in the year 2005. Put all of those names on a bar box and it is a whole different ball game.
Depending on how you look at it, the names mentioned in this thread are all champions in their own right and the BEST on any given day in their era. With the advent of modern technology and pristine table conditions, it is also quite a different playing field today than yesterday.
JAM
F
Fred Agnir
Guest
LastTwo said:
Absolutely not. The responses should shut the door on this misconception.
Fred