For me it would Be Buddy Hall, i remember some time back that Billy I SAID if he could get any player in the world to play 3 rail shape for him who would he chose and he said Bobby Legg, great compliment for a great guy and pool player, rest in peace Mr Legg!
Who is the all-time, best shape player?
- Thread starter Bob Callahan
- Start date
Great thread. The only way to know for sure is to get in their head know exactly where the player wanted to be with the cue ball, and then measure how far he landed from, or on that target.
Any target bigger than a cue ball is simply area position. I like going for a quarter sized cue ball landing target. My favorite cue ball guys growing up were Buddy Hall, Nick Varner, Garten Bierbower, and my grandpa Charles "Pop" Eberle who inspired me with his own ridiculous cue ball control and stories of Willie Mosconi's cue ball mastery.
"If he wanted to draw the cue ball 6 inches, he drew it 6 inches. If he wanted to draw it 8 inches, he drew it 8 inches. There was nothing to watching Willie because he made it look so easy." -Pop
I've talked with Buddy about cue ball control and what kind of target to focus on, and how not to shark yourself when playing position... does anyone want to hear about that conversation?
Any target bigger than a cue ball is simply area position. I like going for a quarter sized cue ball landing target. My favorite cue ball guys growing up were Buddy Hall, Nick Varner, Garten Bierbower, and my grandpa Charles "Pop" Eberle who inspired me with his own ridiculous cue ball control and stories of Willie Mosconi's cue ball mastery.
"If he wanted to draw the cue ball 6 inches, he drew it 6 inches. If he wanted to draw it 8 inches, he drew it 8 inches. There was nothing to watching Willie because he made it look so easy." -Pop
I've talked with Buddy about cue ball control and what kind of target to focus on, and how not to shark yourself when playing position... does anyone want to hear about that conversation?
Well Worst did happen to do this one thing that makes me like him most........he ran something like 40 balls into one hole with them all spread out on the table. At johnston city.....
STRONG!
-Greyghost
I agree with Max, a very good thread. Some pretty smart folks on here, all voting for Buddy. And with good reason. He could play perfect position for hours, not racks. He was the first name that came to mind for me also.
Mosconi had super cue ball control but I only saw him play exhibitions, mostly against nobodies like me. Buddy could do it against the best players in the world, either in tournaments or for the cash. That left an impression on me and lots of other people. In money games Buddy went looking for the best players and wore them all out (except Parica).
Worst also had superlative control of the cue ball, but he might play some funny shape once in a while (of course he made it work). I would rank Lassiter a close second to Buddy. He was the dominant player of his era, also unafraid to pay anyone for cash or in a tournament. I did see him play in competition and he played pin-point position on every shot. If he was a few inches off he would act disgusted with himself. He fully expected to play perfectly all the time. And he almost did!
So I put Buddy and Lassiter at the top of the heap that I've seen in my lifetime.
Mosconi had super cue ball control but I only saw him play exhibitions, mostly against nobodies like me. Buddy could do it against the best players in the world, either in tournaments or for the cash. That left an impression on me and lots of other people. In money games Buddy went looking for the best players and wore them all out (except Parica).
Worst also had superlative control of the cue ball, but he might play some funny shape once in a while (of course he made it work). I would rank Lassiter a close second to Buddy. He was the dominant player of his era, also unafraid to pay anyone for cash or in a tournament. I did see him play in competition and he played pin-point position on every shot. If he was a few inches off he would act disgusted with himself. He fully expected to play perfectly all the time. And he almost did!
So I put Buddy and Lassiter at the top of the heap that I've seen in my lifetime.
It has to be Buddy for me, also.
When Lassiter didn't like the outcome of a shot, he would do that funny thing with his mouth and then look totally disgusted. LOL
Stones
Hello Sean,
I've been a rotation player off and on for over 10 years now... Only recently have I began my quest to run 50 14.1... I can't agree with you more... It has been a humbling experience for me to attempt to even break 30-35... I do have a newfound respect for 14.1 players... Yet, the same day I run 36 balls of 12 ball ghost or 9 ball ghost... Can't wrap my head around it but not even close to giving up 14.1... Already noticed slight improvements in my cue ball and consistency in pocketing the 98%ers I'd lose focus on at times...
I have over 100 accustats matches, all rotation unfortunately... But I've found some good stuff on youtube... A 200+ run of schmidt while he commentates and anything that has blackjack commentating has been a great help.... I'm always open for suggestions if you have any... I'd like to post a run in 14.1 forum so a few of you over there could critique my game and help get me on the right track... Problem is, I haven't recorded a run over 30.... I'm dead serious... Quite depressing for as long as I've been playing this game... 14.1 is just a different beast...
Okay, back to best cueball... I am shocked that I haven't seen more Miz... Watching my first Miz match made me think of all the stories I heard of Buddy Hall.... I caught Buddy past his prime unfortunately.... Miz just played the game beautifully at all times.... Powerful stroke, just finessing whitey around the table with the slightest touch... He made the game look so effortless... Watching an old match of him gets me into stroke instantly... I could be a bit bias being a lefty and all but please folks catch some Miz accustats matches...
The best cue ball I've ever seen in a match is Jose Garcia (14.1 player) vs Tony Robles in a player review.... This man stays in line throughout.... It's amazing to watch.... Ends up shooting like a .960 (almost perfect) Nothing Tony could do....
Miz from my collection
91 vs young archer hill hill (notice how much JA's tempo has changed)
http://www.1vshop.com/Accu-Stats/st...&PNAME=Johnny+Archer+vs.+Steve+Mizerak*+(DVD)
92 vs Hall to get into final vs Earl
http://www.1vshop.com/Accu-Stats/st...NAME=Steve+Mizerak+vs.+Buddy+Hall+(SF)*+(DVD)
92 vs Earl in Final (dog fight til earl hits his uber gear)
http://www.1vshop.com/Accu-Stats/st...=Earl+Strickland+vs.+Steve+Mizerak+(F)*+(DVD)
94 Player Review revenge vs earl
http://www.1vshop.com/Accu-Stats/st...Steve+Mizerak+vs.+Earl+Strickland*+(PR)+(DVD)
94 vs TNT Tony Ellin
http://www.1vshop.com/Accu-Stats/store.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=000071&PNAME=Tony+Ellin+vs.+Steve+Mizerak
The last match above has yet to be converted to DVD.... I've begged Pat and company to get this on the list.. I'm sure this falls pretty far back with how busy they've been as of late... But please folks email or call this request in to be added to conversion list please.... Two of my favs that are no longer with us and another one (professor) inside the booth...
RIP TNT, MIZ, PROFESSOR
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I think you guys should reconsider.
For those of you who don't think of Efren as the best shape player,
ponder this for a minute.
Other than Reyes, write down all of names of the players in this thread (Mosconi,Lasiter,Hall...whoever) put them all in the same room with an assigned 9ft table to each player.
Now, name ANY one player who YOU think would be at least capable of running at least *four consecutive racks of 15 ball rotation thrown at ONE end of the table!
Name here please: _________ _______. :grin:
In terms of cue ball control,9 ball,10 ball and 14.1...are all child's play compared to 15 ball rotation...Efren Reyes is the KING of rotation.
*This was witnessed by Billy Incardona while Reyes was practicing.
For those of you who don't think of Efren as the best shape player,
ponder this for a minute.
Other than Reyes, write down all of names of the players in this thread (Mosconi,Lasiter,Hall...whoever) put them all in the same room with an assigned 9ft table to each player.
Now, name ANY one player who YOU think would be at least capable of running at least *four consecutive racks of 15 ball rotation thrown at ONE end of the table!
Name here please: _________ _______. :grin:
In terms of cue ball control,9 ball,10 ball and 14.1...are all child's play compared to 15 ball rotation...Efren Reyes is the KING of rotation.
*This was witnessed by Billy Incardona while Reyes was practicing.
7days makes a good point....if I needed a miracle shot, i'd like Efren to
shoot it.
But Buddy's stroke is more repeatable.
Efren's stroke won't work as well on a 6x12.....Buddy's will.
I told Buddy once that I tell snooker players to study his stroke, it does
Everything that Steve Davis' does.
However, Buddy said "Don't forget The Miz, one of the finest strokes ever.
So Playin4dinner makes a good point also.
shoot it.
But Buddy's stroke is more repeatable.
Efren's stroke won't work as well on a 6x12.....Buddy's will.
I told Buddy once that I tell snooker players to study his stroke, it does
Everything that Steve Davis' does.
However, Buddy said "Don't forget The Miz, one of the finest strokes ever.
So Playin4dinner makes a good point also.
Buddy Hall is awesome. Hope he gets "back in shape" soon as it will help his play.
Mosconi had a standing offer to run 100 no-rail for cash that no one paid to see. He had over 50 hi-runs of 125 out of 200 games in one series--played on 10-foot tables.
And here's a thing--one time I was sweating Mike Sigel at 9-Ball and for several hours, every time he stepped to the table I plotted where I'd put my cue ball with ball-in-hand and there it went to the inch. Every object ball just enough angle to pocket it easily and work out shape, every 9-ball the cue ball coming down the line to go straight in. It was the most amazing play I've ever witnessed.
Mosconi had a standing offer to run 100 no-rail for cash that no one paid to see. He had over 50 hi-runs of 125 out of 200 games in one series--played on 10-foot tables.
And here's a thing--one time I was sweating Mike Sigel at 9-Ball and for several hours, every time he stepped to the table I plotted where I'd put my cue ball with ball-in-hand and there it went to the inch. Every object ball just enough angle to pocket it easily and work out shape, every 9-ball the cue ball coming down the line to go straight in. It was the most amazing play I've ever witnessed.
ALL great players here! The Miz remains the best Straight Pool player I ever saw, with Sigel second best. Steve had the most powerful stroke ever and yet he had a very gentle touch when needed. Sigel simply knew how to win matches, using his guile and skills to outwit and outplay his opponents.
The two best players I ever saw when it came to moving the cue ball around the table and maneuvering through small openings were Parica and Earl. They could do more with the cue ball than anyone else. I got a little taste of Yang from Taiwan at his best and he may have have been the most remarkable position player ever, able to figure out ways to run racks where anyone else would be looking to duck. He got out from anywhere and nowhere!
As far as Efren is concerned, he was by far the most creative player ever, finding shots where they weren't any. He saw things on a pool table that no one else could envision. And he could pull it off too! His close ball position play (where the object balls are in close proximity) is the best of all time too. He had the best touch on short position shots that I've ever seen. Plus he cut the balls better than anyone else. Two of his huge skills.
Just a few more observations from an eternal pool fan.
The two best players I ever saw when it came to moving the cue ball around the table and maneuvering through small openings were Parica and Earl. They could do more with the cue ball than anyone else. I got a little taste of Yang from Taiwan at his best and he may have have been the most remarkable position player ever, able to figure out ways to run racks where anyone else would be looking to duck. He got out from anywhere and nowhere!
As far as Efren is concerned, he was by far the most creative player ever, finding shots where they weren't any. He saw things on a pool table that no one else could envision. And he could pull it off too! His close ball position play (where the object balls are in close proximity) is the best of all time too. He had the best touch on short position shots that I've ever seen. Plus he cut the balls better than anyone else. Two of his huge skills.
Just a few more observations from an eternal pool fan.
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Ok wait, back up. He would bet someone even money that he could run 100 in straight pool without hitting a rail with the cue ball?
If that's true and he could do it, he clearly wins this position pissing contest. That's unimaginable. He wouldn't have to bet anything, I'd just pay to see it happen.
Personally, I think when you talk about getting in shape, you have to look at who has won the most times. This Sport is measured with wins and one doesn't win unless they are getting shape.
To me Greenleaf's record is very remarkable, although shortened due to his thirst for the bottle.
For nearly 25 years the man to beat in any 9-Ball tournament was Earl Strickland. I'm surprised he has not been mentioned more often. He has dazzled us with his antics and super shotmaking abilities for years. Seems to me that in Mosconi Cup competition that it was a well known fact that many of the players knew that all they had to do was make their shot and give Earl a look, cause they could rely on him making that shot and getting them back in shape for the next one.
I am a big, big fan of Buddy, Sigel, Willie Wimpy, Efren and Greenleaf, but for almost 25 years, Earl was the man to beat everywhere he played. One could not have accomplished all he has without playing shape.
With the tough double elimination format that tournaments have used since the late 60's, Earl has a resume unparalleled.
In the days when they used the round robin format for tournaments, Wimpy ruled in all games. Willie was absolutely great, but the majority of his Championships were decided by challenge matches. Not tournaments.
To bad the round robin format is and was not used more. Perhaps guys like Mizerak and Buddy would have excelled even more.
Of course as we all experience with our own games, one man's shape is another man's mistake.
My vote for the best in shape/position play would be .. uh .. well .. hmmm .. All of the above and them some.
To me Greenleaf's record is very remarkable, although shortened due to his thirst for the bottle.
For nearly 25 years the man to beat in any 9-Ball tournament was Earl Strickland. I'm surprised he has not been mentioned more often. He has dazzled us with his antics and super shotmaking abilities for years. Seems to me that in Mosconi Cup competition that it was a well known fact that many of the players knew that all they had to do was make their shot and give Earl a look, cause they could rely on him making that shot and getting them back in shape for the next one.
I am a big, big fan of Buddy, Sigel, Willie Wimpy, Efren and Greenleaf, but for almost 25 years, Earl was the man to beat everywhere he played. One could not have accomplished all he has without playing shape.
With the tough double elimination format that tournaments have used since the late 60's, Earl has a resume unparalleled.
In the days when they used the round robin format for tournaments, Wimpy ruled in all games. Willie was absolutely great, but the majority of his Championships were decided by challenge matches. Not tournaments.
To bad the round robin format is and was not used more. Perhaps guys like Mizerak and Buddy would have excelled even more.
Of course as we all experience with our own games, one man's shape is another man's mistake.
My vote for the best in shape/position play would be .. uh .. well .. hmmm .. All of the above and them some.
If a man ever lived who could run 100 without hitting a rail....and bet
even money on it....
....with very little preparation, I'll get in the cage with Chuck Norris...
...fight to the death
Good post, Max. This is especially true when it comes to rotation based games versus the best players from the straight pool era. In 9 ball you will rarely know for sure the player hit his intended mark. There's a lot more open area where target zones are bigger. In straight pool it is often more obvious that a player landed exactly where he intended because the zone is that small. If he misses his stop by more than a dime he doesn't have the next shot. In 9 and 10 Ball you can probably tell more about this from a player's ability to play safe than you can when he is running balls. Even then, the zone for a hook is usually about two balls wide though you can also gauge a player's success by if he was able to freeze against the blocker and take away the jump shot or kicking routes.
This brings up the inherent difficulty of comparing players from these two eras. The style of play is so different. In addition to using spin off the rails to get shape like rotation based players are used to doing, 14.1 artists also often don't go to a rail, having cut angle as their only tool to get to their intended destination in a lot more traffic.
Great insight Max, from a player who understands both of these worlds at the expert level. :wink:
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Jimmy Wetch
Uhmmmm............ yeah! Please do tell!!!!!:smile:
I think during the time their careers overlapped (80's) Sigel's tournament record was equal to Earl's, if not better.