Why are there so few good pool players today?

[edatplaypool]

Fewer good players

I think there are a lot of reasons, but I think there is no doubt that there are a lot fewer good players these days, and expect the trend to continue. Here are some of the many reasons.

> Pool is a skill activity that takes a lot of experience to play well. All the gambling options that require skill are declining (craps, blackjack, etcetra) while the no skill gambling (slot machines, lotteries) options are increasing.

> Decades without an effective proffessional mens pool organization, and only a marginally effective womens organization in the WPBA, means that many people don't get the opportunity to see pool played at the highest level either on TV or in person.

> Poker is growing like gangbusters. Many pool players can get there gambling fix, and make more money, playing poker. Gambling of all kinds like poker, lotteries, casinos, have become much more widespread, while pool still suffers from a poor image. That means the pool players that would like to gamble at pool can find other ways to satisfy their need.

> Pool halls that cater to serious players are not viable except in a very few places. Most pool halls that were once geared to serious players have now become nothing more than nightclubs with tables as an afterthought, a place where the money is made from the booze, not the table time.

> The BCA has stopped promoting pool and is solely a trade organization. Thus right now it is no ones job to make pool a popular and hip thing to do. As a result the stereotypes that persist that pool is seedy, attracts criminals and gambling, are accepted as facts. Even someone who would want to open a good quality pool hall would face nearly insurmountable odds in most communities across this country.

There are a dozen more reasons probably. These are only the first ones that come to mind. But the premise is precisely true, pool is on a serious decline in the USA, and it wasn't doing too great in the first place!

Ed Mercier
President
Playpool.com

 

[FLICKit]

All you guys who are jumping up and saying "wtf is this guy talking about! There are tons of good players, look at efren and blah blah blah!!!!!111!!1!!!!1"
Reread the post...

He isn't saying "there used to be a lot of top level pros and now there aren't any top level pros", he's pointing out that the overall skill level seems to have gone down. I think he's saying that most of the everyday people who play pool all the time should be 'good' at it, or at least 'decent'... but for some reason 90% of them are just bangers...

Are you kidding me? Have you seen the ESPN classic matches that show many of those old timer stars (like Willie Mosconi and Luther Lassiter, ...)? The level of play that those guys played are a joke compared to the level of professional play today. Not to say they weren't good players, they were. But their level of play then, can hardly measure to current levels of play.

Nowadays, you can go to most any good pool hall and find some of the stronger players who could easily outperform those old fogeys. Yet these current stronger players wouldn't have the slightest chance at the pro level.

Understandably some people have a warped sense of nostalgia for the past. But when reality really sinks in. Todays top players far outperform those old fogeys from the past.

 

[poolplayer2093]

Are you kidding me? Have you seen the ESPN classic matches that show many of those old timer stars (like Willie Mosconi and Luther Lassiter, ...)? The level of play that those guys played are a joke compared to the level of professional play today. Not to say they weren't good players, they were. But their level of play then, can hardly measure to current levels of play.

Nowadays, you can go to most any good pool hall and find some of the stronger players who could easily outperform those old fogeys. Yet these current stronger players wouldn't have the slightest chance at the pro level.

Understandably some people have a warped sense of nostalgia for the past. But when reality really sinks in. Todays top players far outperform those old fogeys from the past.

i've never seen any of the old players but i do remember hearing danny dilliberto saying (i don't remember hearing about those guys running 5-6 racks) that was after mika immonen hit ishmial paez with a 6 pack at the us open. my spelling and memory might be off a little i'm drunk

 

[buffalofloyd]

I think there are a lot of reasons, but I think there is no doubt that there are a lot fewer good players these days, and expect the trend to continue. Here are some of the many reasons.

> Pool is a skill activity that takes a lot of experience to play well. All the gambling options that require skill are declining (craps, blackjack, etcetra) while the no skill gambling (slot machines, lotteries) options are increasing.

> Decades without an effective proffessional mens pool organization, and only a marginally effective womens organization in the WPBA, means that many people don't get the opportunity to see pool played at the highest level either on TV or in person.

> Poker is growing like gangbusters. Many pool players can get there gambling fix, and make more money, playing poker. Gambling of all kinds like poker, lotteries, casinos, have become much more widespread, while pool still suffers from a poor image. That means the pool players that would like to gamble at pool can find other ways to satisfy their need.

> Pool halls that cater to serious players are not viable except in a very few places. Most pool halls that were once geared to serious players have now become nothing more than nightclubs with tables as an afterthought, a place where the money is made from the booze, not the table time.

> The BCA has stopped promoting pool and is solely a trade organization. Thus right now it is no ones job to make pool a popular and hip thing to do. As a result the stereotypes that persist that pool is seedy, attracts criminals and gambling, are accepted as facts. Even someone who would want to open a good quality pool hall would face nearly insurmountable odds in most communities across this country.

There are a dozen more reasons probably. These are only the first ones that come to mind. But the premise is precisely true, pool is on a serious decline in the USA, and it wasn't doing too great in the first place!

Ed Mercier
President
Playpool.com

These comments are exactly my thoughts as well. I am glad you typed all that out because it would have taken me a long time

Your comment about the pool halls being like nightclubs is absolutely dead on. I've been playing for about 13-14 years now and the pool hall I started out in was a real pool hall with tables and a overlooking deck that you could observe the tables below from. Shortly after that the deck was taken out so video games, dart boards and other assorted money making non pool related things could be put in. All in all, the pool hall is now more of just a hang out spot for teens or ultra casual players who still think that hitting the cue ball from underneath is the proper way to make a jump shot. I just don't see people who REALLY WANT to learn the game like I did. I see people who are just looking to kill some time and fvck around. This is what I see where I live. I'm sure there are places the exact opposite of this but prolly not many. Anyway, I think I've taken this in a other direction... scuse the ramblings.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[freddy the beard]

We were better

My thoughts on this subject are well known. They are best summed up in an old Western movie that was on TV recently. Jesse James is holed up in this little town. In the town is a young, smart-alecky gunfighter. In the Saloon is an old timer who has been around a long time and knows Jesse personally. In the midst of showing off his draw skills and bragging to the townsfolk, the kid asks the old man if he has ever seen anybody faster than him with a gun. The old man says no. "Am I faster than Jesse James?" He asks. The old man says "Yes you are. I have never seen anybody faster."
When Jesse attempts to leave town, the kid brazenly calls Jesse out. Jesse reluctantly agrees and they have a shootout. They draw and Jesse shoots the kid. As the kid lays dying, he looks up at the old timer and asks, "But you told me I was faster than Jesse?!" The old timer nods his head in agreement, "Faster kid, not better!"

the Beard

PS in re to the TV matches with Lassiter and Mosconi. They were so old that after the matches they would return to their respective wheelchairs and roll home.

 

[Island Drive]

My thoughts on this subject are well known. They are best summed up in an old Western movie that was on TV recently. Jesse James is holed up in this little town. In the town is a young, smart-alecky gunfighter. In the Saloon is an old timer who has been around a long time and knows Jesse personally. In the midst of showing off his draw skills and bragging to the townsfolk, the kid asks the old man if he has ever seen anybody faster than him with a gun. The old man says no. "Am I faster than Jesse James?" He asks. The old man says "Yes you are. I have never seen anybody faster."
When Jesse attempts to leave town, the kid brazenly calls Jesse out. Jesse reluctantly agrees and they have a shootout. They draw and Jesse shoots the kid. As the kid lays dying, he looks up at the old timer and asks, "But you told me I was faster than Jesse?!" The old timer nods his head in agreement, "Faster kid, not better!"

the Beard

PS in re to the TV matches with Lassiter and Mosconi. They were so old that after the matches they would return to their respective wheelchairs and roll home.

The depth of knowlege from the depression era days when NY City had over 5,000 pool rooms was "real". This group of men, and I'm sure in Chicago and other cities, there was action as "tough" as you'd like and more, How many players in any other countries could beat Ervolino at straight pool in the 1960's or 70's and he was not at the top of the heap back in his prime. There were sections of the country that had great bank players, how come we never hear 'today' about great bank players coming out of the Phillipines, Japan, Taiwan, China? Hummmmm, and the list of incredible one pocket players from yesteryear was real. How many guys in the states nowadays could beat Ronnie Allen at one pocket in his prime? I think today there are more good players than yesteryear not more "great" players and intriguing souls that could pick your pocket, entertain you and play for days on end with one thing in mind, your wallet. Depression era players mindset was much tougher to deal with than the "quick draw" good players of today. Any player from yesteryear that had equal playing skill of a player today, had much more depth to their game, more personality and gambling ability. The old guys ran their business like any successful person did, they always made money.

 

[edatplaypool]

Are you kidding me? Have you seen the ESPN classic matches that show many of those old timer stars (like Willie Mosconi and Luther Lassiter, ...)? The level of play that those guys played are a joke compared to the level of professional play today. Not to say they weren't good players, they were. But their level of play then, can hardly measure to current levels of play.

Nowadays, you can go to most any good pool hall and find some of the stronger players who could easily outperform those old fogeys. Yet these current stronger players wouldn't have the slightest chance at the pro level.

Understandably some people have a warped sense of nostalgia for the past. But when reality really sinks in. Todays top players far outperform those old fogeys from the past.

This is such an absurd statement that it really doesn't warrant a response, but I will anyway.

Those old fogeys you saw on TV were in their 70's and 80's. Do you really think they were in the prime of their playing career? Anyone who thinks that todays players would "far outperform" a Willie Mosconi in his prime is simply showing their ignorance. Their's a reason he still holds the all time record run in straight pool. How many other sports records have stood for more than 50 years?

Ed Mercier
President
Playpool.com

 

[CreeDo]

lol flickit's got a little trouble with teh online tv words reading.

Me: "the original poster isn't talking about the top pros he's talking about how the average everyday players are."

Flickit: "are you kidding? The top pros now are as good or better than the top pros in the old days!!!!111!!!!"

If I didn't know better I'd say he's doing it on purpose to be funny =)
And ty for the point about TV. Anyway even if it's true there's more or better top pros, the AVERAGE skill level has probably dropped and I'm pretty sure it has something to do with what games are popular now vs. what was popular then. Everyone talks about how the skill level of everyday filipinos is so high, and what do they play loads of? Rotation. If they all grew up on 8 ball their standard of playing could never get so high.

 

[ShootingArts]

wrong climate for pool in the US

Great players and athletes are often developed from poverty and adversary. The living is pretty easy for most US children these days so we have relatively fewer with that really deep hunger to succeed. Those few with a deep hunger see dozens of avenues to success with pool not usually even in the picture.

I hate to say this but it seems that pool in the US is first a recreational game, second a gambler's game, and lastly a sport. Not much to attract our best and brightest to the game. We still have outstanding youngsters who will make their mark on the world stage but we have comparatively fewer than countries where pool is a major sport and widely seen as a viable avenue to success.

Hu

 

[3andstop]

More players now IMO

Well, as far as I see there are many more good players today than there were back in the 60's (which is how far back I can personally attest to)

I recall a conversation with a few old pool buddies of mine where we were saying, remember when we used to open the pool room at 9am and there were a very small handful of players who would dare venture up to table one where we were playing.

If you looked anywhere else in the room most players were "C" at best.

Today, every snot-nosed kid can move the cue ball and run a rack or two of 9 ball. I hardly ever recall a kid under 20 or so being a dangerous player.

So, IMO there are many more good players today percentage wise among those who play as there were 40yrs ago.

 

[philw]

This might sound like a very dumb question, but have been playing pool since the late 50's/early 60's when few we good pool players.

I see few reasons in the year 2007 why most who play pool are not pretty good at the game, and there should be less bangers imho.

I ask the question why so few good pool players as in 2007 there are so many resources to learn play pool better than there were 50 years ago.

I am talking about instructional books, instructional dvd’s and vhs’s and last certified instructors.

Yes I know there are those who refuse to spend table time practicing, but those who wish to hone their pool game in 2007 there are so many resources for self help, plus certified instruction.

Where are all the good pool players, and why is competition not tougher at the top. why are there still so few player who seem to dominate the top level of pool?

I disagree too! There are so many more good players than years ago. If you don't see it you are not paying attention. Philw

 

[QStickMagician]

Same group seems to always win

The point I was trying to make was I do not understand why from my prospective in local, regional, and national pool competitions it seem to me that the same folks win all the time.

It would seem to me with all the great pool instructional material available today the competition would be closer. With better matches for the top spots.

But it seem to me in many tournaments a few pool players constantly run away with the prizes all the time.

 

[3andstop]

I believe also that many great players don't play the tournament circuit and that many of the constant winners of these pro tourneys will have all they want if they were to gamble with many unknowns.

 

[thebigdog]

I believe also that many great players don't play the tournament circuit and that many of the constant winners of these pro tourneys will have all they want if they were to gamble with many unknowns.

So you are saying that there are unknown players who would beat guys like Efren for the cash?

 

[ShootingArts]

different question altogether

This is a different question altogether than the one you asked in your opening post. If you give a dozen people with similar physical gifts the exact same training, one or a few will still rise to the top. They may not be the ones with the best tools or even the best minds, but they are the best competitors.

Do they have more heart, more hunger, or are they simply the people that rise to the occasion and actually perform better the greater the pressure? I don't have the answer but it often comes down to not being the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog. You can enhance their competitive skills but I truly doubt that anyone can make a great competitor out of someone without a competitive nature. On the other hand someone with a great competitive nature will find a way to excel regardless of the odds.

Hu

The point I was trying to make was I do not understand why from my prospective in local, regional, and national pool competitions it seem to me that the same folks win all the time.

It would seem to me with all the great pool instructional material available today the competition would be closer. With better matches for the top spots.

But it seem to me in many tournaments a few pool players constantly run away with the prizes all the time.

 

[LC3]

There might be a bigger pool of pro talent than there was in Mosconi's day, but that doesn't mean today's pros are better. I have old video of Crane, Procita, and others playing when they were still relatively young and strong, and there was certainly no deficiency in their game.

 

[3andstop]

So you are saying that there are unknown players who would beat guys like Efren for the cash?

Absolutely. Efren is a great player, perhaps the best in the world, but there are many great players that can beat any of the pro's at any given time. I'm not saying there is some poolgod on earth who can take out the pros at will, but I am saying there are plenty of unknown players who would give the pro's all they can handle. Especially in such a finite game as 9 ball.

I do believe that a much more accurate measure of greatness would be a good 250 point game of straight pool though. That would narrow the field

Don't think for a minute that the only gifted players are the ones on the circuit.

 

[thebigdog]

Absolutely. Efren is a great player, perhaps the best in the world, but there are many great players that can beat any of the pro's at any given time. I'm not saying there is some poolgod on earth who can take out the pros at will, but I am saying there are plenty of unknown players who would give the pro's all they can handle. Especially in such a finite game as 9 ball.

I do believe that a much more accurate measure of greatness would be a good 250 point game of straight pool though. That would narrow the field

Don't think for a minute that the only gifted players are the ones on the circuit.

First of all, there is not circuit to speak of. Second if anyone could step up and beat Efren they would. Efren has huge stakehorses and they would give odds on the money for an even game to anyone. I've seen Efren give these kind of great players you speak of, by that I mean the kind of guys who could beat him in a race to 9 on their best day, get 6 out and breaks and lose when playing long sessions. There is a huge difference between playing one good race to 9 and being able to play someone all night long.
I bet if you ask any of the pro's who have been around awhile they will also say that the skill level has decreased in the last 10-15 years.

 

[thebigdog]

There might be a bigger pool of pro talent than there was in Mosconi's day, but that doesn't mean today's pros are better. I have old video of Crane, Procita, and others playing when they were still relatively young and strong, and there was certainly no deficiency in their game.

I think its reall hard to compare players from today and the Mosconi era becuase of the changes in equipment. I say just compare between now an 20 years ago. Also think about this, I don't think Efren plays as good as he did 20 years ago, yet he is still the best player in the world.

 

[FLICKit]

I think its reall hard to compare players from today and the Mosconi era becuase of the changes in equipment. I say just compare between now an 20 years ago. Also think about this, I don't think Efren plays as good as he did 20 years ago, yet he is still the best player in the world.

In many ways Efren plays much better today. He may miss an occasional extra ball than he probably used to due to a slight eyesight loss. But he also is much smarter now than he used to be. Efren has a larger array of shots which he has practiced and become so refined in executing. So his success rate is very high.