Why can't women play as good as men?

[Tommy Joe]

John...You know you're right, and a group of us here know you're right. You can't reason with most of these other guys. They would much rather believe it has to be something physical or mental, than just numbers. Their egos won't allow them to think any other way. But it's beating a dead horse...we've been through these threads a thousand times, and it's always the same. Someday they'll be proven wrong...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

No, Scott, John is NOT right, and neither are you. What makes you think women don't have as much time as men to play pool or other games? Most men I know work an awful lot of hours. The truth is, guys like you and John are conditioned from day #1 to go out of your way to pretend to support women because that's probably the only way you can get one, by pretending to be on their side. The reality is that men are generally better than women in most competitive pursuits and it's not going to change. You can bet that Jeanette Lee plays far more hours than the average man, yet there are tons of male B players who can beat her, and if you don't agree, then you haven't been around. Rarely does Lee or the other women players run out. Fisher and Corr are the only two who run out consistently (unless there's a new group I haven't seen), and even they are fortunate that they can always run back to the women's league when things get too tough. I don't agree those guys you're referring to are making excuses. I think you are the one rationalizing. You are the one with the ego, afraid you might chase off the women if you don't bow every time one walks past. I knew this argument would drag the poodle boys out of the closet. I'm going to try to stay out of this topic because it really does bring out the phoniness in people, and I'm not talking about myself.

Tommy Joe

 

[Tommy Joe]

John...You know you're right, and a group of us here know you're right. You can't reason with most of these other guys. They would much rather believe it has to be something physical or mental, than just numbers. Their egos won't allow them to think any other way. But it's beating a dead horse...we've been through these threads a thousand times, and it's always the same. Someday they'll be proven wrong...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Forgot to add, Scott.........if it's just numbers, as you say, then why are there so many good Fillipino players? One would think by your logic that the population of the Phillipines would be the highest on earth since they produce so many good pool players. Or maybe they spend more time on the table than anyone else? I don't think so. There could be any number of answers, or combinations of answers. It could even relate to physical size, that their size is perfect for the the table and holding the cue.

And what about the NBA? Blacks make up 11% of the population, yet dominate the NBA. Are they better athletes than whites? Or do they simply have more time - as you say - to practice at the game. Yeah, all they do is play hoops 24/7. They don't have to go to work like other people. Now of course you could say that more blacks than whites play basketball, but is this really so? In the school programs across the country I'm sure there are as many whites as blacks playing basketball. Anyway, I could go on all day with examples just like this, maybe even better ones, but I feel it's worthless just as you do, so I'll knock it off here and will try not to post again into this thread unless provoked. By the way, one last time - your reasoning is flawed. Thank you.

Tommy Joe

 

[onepocketchump]

Forgot to add, Scott.........if it's just numbers, as you say, then why are there so many good Fillipino players? One would think by your logic that the population of the Phillipines would be the highest on earth since they produce so many good pool players. Or maybe they spend more time on the table than anyone else? I don't think so. There could be any number of answers, or combinations of answers. It could even relate to physical size, that their size is perfect for the the table and holding the cue.

And what about the NBA? Blacks make up 11% of the population, yet dominate the NBA. Are they better athletes than whites? Or do they simply have more time - as you say - to practice at the game. Yeah, all they do is play hoops 24/7. They don't have to go to work like other people. Now of course you could say that more blacks than whites play basketball, but is this really so? In the school programs across the country I'm sure there are as many whites as blacks playing basketball. Anyway, I could go on all day with examples just like this, maybe even better ones, but I feel it's worthless just as you do, so I'll knock it off here and will try not to post again into this thread unless provoked. By the way, one last time - your reasoning is flawed. Thank you.

Tommy Joe

Philipine players - more Filipino men play pool under pressure and tougher conditions than do the players of any other nation expressed as a percentage of the population. Result, the Phillipines produces a bunch of great players. Arkansas has less players playing than North Carolina. Result: Arkansas has less good players than North Carolina.

NBA - More blacks play basketball on a regular and very competitive basis than whites do. Thus it is easy to see that there will be more blacks excelling at the game than whites.

Why are white divers more skilled than black divers on average? Because the amount of white divers vs. black divers is easily 200:1.

And as far as you telling me that I am falsely sensitive to women in order to get a date you don't know the first ****ing thing about me. I am sure your neandrathal attitude gets you all the chicks you want doesn't it. I can see your pickup line now, "hey babe, you can never measure up to me but you can please me at will - let's go." What do you do with them when you're done beat the crap out of them and leave them on the side of the road? Now you're being a *****.

Here is what it is - Since the women are so ****ing weak - you can come to North Carolina and get played by Kelly Fisher. I will stake her for any amount against you. Let's just settle it on the table. Since there are any number of B players who can beat her and Jeanette bring them on. I will let you bring ANY PLAYER you want who is ranked a B player in any handicapped tournament system in America and you can bet until you run out of money.

So bring your pathetic sexist BS to NC and you can PLAYED all day.

Consider yourself provoked. ****ing nit.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

If the WPBA doesnt allow gambling then they must be blind, to think the women dont gamble. I wont name any of the ladies but I know one of them she gambles often. She even told me personally that she has someone who will back her gambling for large amounts (IE) thousands!

I am sure girls like Allison, Karen and the top 5 maybe top 10 girls in the WPBA probably dont need to gamble. But making 10-20,000$ a year isnt cutting it while on tour. Expecially when considering traveling costs.

dave

This just goes to show how little people really know about a subject before they rush to their keyboards to respond. The WPBA does not allow the players who are in a tournament to gamble within one week prior to and during the tournament in the state where the tournament is held. Other than that they are free to do whatever they want to. A lot of the top ladies are eager to share their gambling exploits with whoever asks about it.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

thanks harvey for the defense. I think people jump on other people because they think when a person says a man is better at____ or a woman is better at ___ this means one is better than the other. My posts merely state that there are differences and if anyone actually bothers to do some research on the matter and not just speculate, they will see there are differences. It's in a way somewhat ignorant to not see pure scientific data and then make a hypothesis. I see lots of people saying it's sexist to believe one is better than the other, it is, but it's not sexist to say women recognize color beter than men, or that men have denser muscle tissue. These are facts. If there was a sport that required arrangement of colors to fit a pattern then women would dominate. It also seems so many people are hung up on exceptions to rules. If we flipped things around and said "why is reyes better and all women" man that would get someone in trouble, but some don't seem to have problems saying "fisher can beat anyone in this forum" This is not even close to a fair comparison.

The only thing close to any real proof is that there are fewer women than men who play, which does have some validity but if you still took a sample of 20 women on the pro tour and 20 men on thier tour, you'd still see on the average men play slightly better... slightly. One poster said that women have better hand eye coordination, that is true, women excell in prcision tasks such as placing small peg shapes into respective holes than men do. For that reason there are jobs out there where women would excel in. However in target directing tasks (pool darts ) men excel, though only slightly. One poster said that women did most of the labor during WWII, that's true but then you have to ask, where were the men. All the able bodies were out fighting, so there you have a slight flaw in reasoning. As for them doing their jobs as good as any man, yeah they did, but they could have had jobs with skills that were just as good for men as women.

I'll state again that sport is a male construct that was designed to test men's skills against other men. Some theories like that of Socialist's views of sport state that because men create sports, women will not do well because it is designed to highlight mens talents and suppress women.
I am not a sexist in any way. I have degrees in sociology and psychology and have done many papers on sex differences mostly sociologically, and there are just so many differences in men and women that can't be accounted for sociologically. Evolutionary psychology has very promising theories on what make men and women different. I'm surprised no one has actually argued any of my examples and found research supporting otherwise. All I'm hearing so far is speculation and to some extent misplaced chivalry, but few here are actually using real evidence, research, etc. There's nothing wrong in educating the real sexists out there, but don't confuse that for genuine facts. Here's another fact, there are more male geniuses in history but there are also more male sociopaths: murderers, canabals, and other deviants.

We aren't ignoring the science. There just isn't enough of a comparitive group to get a reasonable result. Until you have roughly equal numbers you can't claim equal results. Comparing the top 20 men with the top 20 women in skills alone, the men would be far ahead of the women in my opinion. Just use something easy like the 9-Ball Ghost with ball in hand after the break. The Men would kill the Women in this exercise. Fast forward 100 years though and do the same thing when there are roughly the same amount of women playing seriously as men and they have all had the same opportunitoes to learn. The results would be far closer, if not even for the same task.

In fact, there are women doing tons of jobs that were once thought to be well beyond the physical and mental capabilities of women. In sports, there is no reason why women cannot be as good or better than their male counterparts barring absolute physical disparity. Possible reasons why they do not are still social stigma and opportunity. Still though those factors are imposed on a group of participants whose numbers are still far smaller than their counterparts.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

unfortunately, i have not read all the posts here. but I wanted to add, i have recently been thinking about this subject and a couple of things came to mind.

first off, it is really no big mystery that men play better pool than women. there is an advantage to being stronger in pool, despite what some may think, and as in any sport (diving, football, soccer), this will turn out to be a huge advantage, especially when you are talking about top players when every little extra counts.

with that said, forget about pool for a second. lets talk about chess.... which i think is a great example for this particular argument because females are not physically limited in any way.

now, hopefully chess guys will chime in. but i happen to know that men dominate chess. there is like one girl and she's supposedly ok, but nothing like the top men.

anyway, i just think that settles this argument personally. it really is true, at this point in time men just play better in sports.

Dude, I think Sarah Rousey weighs more than Alex Pagulayan and Nick Varner combined and she's only like 100 punds soaking wet. The stronger argument holds no water in pool.

There are women that break the balls just as hard as most pro men. There are women who can spin the ball and make it dance as well as any man. Mike Massey excluded - he's not normal The point is that there are only five women who play WORLD CLASS consistently against hundreds of men. Not even Efren wins every tournament he plays in and he is considered the best. So how can anyone think that these five women are supposed to just waltz in and win consistently against the men ? Their performance against the men doesn't prove anything other than they are up against really long odds. If they beat the odds then they get props for it.

The IPT shows quite clearly that the women can hang. It also shows quite clearly that someone who plays lights out one day can have a bad round the next day.

In ten years there will be 20 women who play world class. In 20 years there will be 100 and so on. Numbers and opportunity. "Mass makes class" Ilona Bernhardt (the best German player who quit before her time.)

John

 

[Da Poet]

Why do men play better than women?

We're ugly. We have to play better.

 

[Harvywallbanger]

Onepocketchump wrote:NBA - More blacks play basketball on a regular and very competitive basis than whites do. Thus it is easy to see that there will be more blacks excelling at the game than whites.


WRONG! Blacks are better in hoops because they can run like a deer and jump twice as high as white people. This one IS genetics and there is no argueing it.

 

[ironman]

(referring to it being number ratio)Possibly, but its not like a woman pro only plays other woman. In a women tournament, yeah, but they grew up in the same pool halls as men and so on and so forth. Its not like a woman only plays and practices with other women. There are no "Men Only" tournaments. Women play with the men in tournaments all year round. I think there is something else at work here.

Of course there is more at work here. None of wants to sound like some "sexist pig". It can't be just enviroment, what about all the other sports.

 

[ironman]

I'll tell you exactly why. Because none of them bet high. They rarely do, and it's rarely more than for a thousand or two. Every single male professional pool player gambles, with the exception of Tony Robles, and perhaps one or two more. But the rest of them, they all bet high. Earl used to, but he quit. Tournament pressure and gambling pressure are two different things. Compare the women players of today to Jean Balukas. She used to gamble alot, didn't she? And she supposedly played just like the men. The WPBA doesn't allow gambling, and that's why the women are inferior to men in this sport.

This is about the silliest thing I've heard yet.

 

[ironman]

height works against me when in uncomfortable shooting positions.

Tell that to Tony watson,nick Varner, Efren, orcollo etc.........

 

[ironman]

I pedict the day will come when there is a woman who plays as good or better than any man. And it will probably happen in Pool sooner than any other competitive sport (i.e Golf or Tennis).

Remember back at the old Clyde Childress (guessing 25 years ago) they were passing around a petition to bar women right after Jean beat Rempe and I believe Buddy and beat them pretty handily.
David Howard finally beat her the next morning like 11-8 (app) and looked asif he had just been in a war.

 

[ironman]

I'm curious to know if any of the men here with the viewpoint of women being lesser players would even dare to claim they could beat Allison, Jasmin, Karen and so on. Is anyone brave enough to make that claim??? Just curious

I've thought about this a bit, and just have to say , that, I would play.

 

[Cameron Smith]

You can bet that Jeanette Lee plays far more hours than the average man, yet there are tons of male B players who can beat her, and if you don't agree, then you haven't been around. Rarely does Lee or the other women players run out.
Tommy Joe

I had to respond to this. I don't know what B players you have been watching, but Jeanette has a high run 150 in 14.1. That makes her pretty good in my books, certainly better than my high run. She also did very well in the World 14.1 championship.

I think that fact that the WPBA has a alternate break format works against them in this kind of discussion. There are always far fewer break and runs in that kind of format than winner breaks. But they have to stick alternate breaks as it is a equaliser which is neccessary to keep it competitive between upper and echelons of the tour.

 

[jimmyg]

Okay, I'll be the one to post the most unpopular observation, and I am only making an observation, not casting judgement on individual lifestyle choices. In many, if not in most, of womens sports (tennis, golf, basketball, pool) why does there appear to be an awful high testosterone level in the female lockerrooms. Maybe certain abilities are actually derived from genetic, hormonal levels. Just a thought, no offense intended.

 

[twilight]

We aren't ignoring the science. There just isn't enough of a comparitive group to get a reasonable result. Until you have roughly equal numbers you can't claim equal results. Comparing the top 20 men with the top 20 women in skills alone, the men would be far ahead of the women in my opinion. Just use something easy like the 9-Ball Ghost with ball in hand after the break. The Men would kill the Women in this exercise. Fast forward 100 years though and do the same thing when there are roughly the same amount of women playing seriously as men and they have all had the same opportunitoes to learn. The results would be far closer, if not even for the same task.

In fact, there are women doing tons of jobs that were once thought to be well beyond the physical and mental capabilities of women. In sports, there is no reason why women cannot be as good or better than their male counterparts barring absolute physical disparity. Possible reasons why they do not are still social stigma and opportunity. Still though those factors are imposed on a group of participants whose numbers are still far smaller than their counterparts.

John

Not to negate anything I've said in any previous posts, but I agree with this assesment. The more females that play, the better the accuracy of any measurements we get. Statistically, we really only need to get a small number in a stratified sample. Say 100 women and 100 men to get a reliable measurement and get a measurement above 90% accuracy. Any political poll that measures voters don't use but a couple thousand people and get about 96% accuracy.

 

[justnum]

i knew a few girls that used to use steroids or anabolic steroids they explained it like it was perfectly natural and healthy. Too bad that stuff cant make them better athletes in a finesse sport like basketball.

I know an overwhelming number of guys that juice up just for the looks. Its so easy to spot the juicers too.

 

[jay helfert]

Remember back at the old Clyde Childress (guessing 25 years ago) they were passing around a petition to bar women right after Jean beat Rempe and I believe Buddy and beat them pretty handily.
David Howard finally beat her the next morning like 11-8 (app) and looked asif he had just been in a war.

Jeanie was getting better and more comfortable in each successive tournament. This made her a threat to many men, and they were openly critical of allowing her to play. One Hall Of Famer (PM me) even said that he would withdraw from any tournament she played in.

At that time, she was the only women seeking to play the top men. The other women were no longer a challenge to her. She had won sixteen tournaments in a row during the early 80's. And the guys she was beating were not slouches either. Buddy, Lebron, Rempe, Keith and the Miz were a few of the scalps she collected in her brief foray into the world of Men's Pool.

Her highest finish had been 13-16th in a 64 player field. I felt that if she had been able to continue, it would not be long before she would make a top ten finish. And the possibility of her winning was not out of the question. It was about that time when Jean had a riff with the WPBA and decided to retire. A major loss for the sport.

 

[Jimmy M.]

I pedict the day will come when there is a woman who plays as good or better than any man. And it will probably happen in Pool sooner than any other competitive sport (i.e Golf or Tennis).

I don't know, Jay. It better happen pretty quick because there's this 16 year old girl who plays golf pretty sporty. (I know she has yet to make the cut in a men's event but I wonder how many of the male pro's played her speed when they were 16 or made cuts in PGA events when they were her age).

 

[Tommy Joe]

I pedict the day will come when there is a woman who plays as good or better than any man. And it will probably happen in Pool sooner than any other competitive sport (i.e Golf or Tennis).

You're hedging a bit with your prediction when you say, "plays as good or better than any man." Which one is it, "as good", or "better than.".....? This reminds me of psychics who forsee "war in the very near future", which of course is going to happen somewhere on planet earth at any moment in time.

But I am not sneering at your prediction, and will remember it if it comes true, at which time I will commend you on your bold prediction. I think we'll both be dead by then.

Of course it's more likely to happen in pool than in golf or tennis. It will never happen in tennis, period. I'd love to see a professional genderless tour of par 3 golf where strength is nearly eliminated as a factor. So, when you say the day will come when a women plays better than any man - do you mean she'll be the absolute best on planet earth and dominate all comers the way Mosconi did in straight pool?

I believe a lot of the surface resentment you see towards women in sports is really at times a reaction to the crybaby attitude the media puts forth for women who don't make as much money as men in sports or draw as many large crowds. Well, it's supply and demand. I'll bet the average sports viewer (tv), can name more female than male ice skaters, and the same might even apply to tennis. Yet women create their own leagues when they have every right to play with the men any time they choose. I can understand it in tennis or golf or any sport in which power is a factor. But that's not the case with pool. If breaking the balls is an issue, simply allow the female player to employ a male assistant whose sole function is to break the balls for her. LOL.

Tommy Joe