Why CTE is silly

Status
Not open for further replies.
dr_dave said:
Spidey,

I won't be at the SBE, but I think I would take your bet, depending on how close to the 30-degree cut angle you expect me to detect. I think I can do it fairly well within about 1 degree. I'm sure I could also teach you how to do this if you wanted. I don't like to spoon feed you, but all you need (including the quote from Billy_Bob) is described and demonstrated here:

I would think that my peace-sign technique could identify a 1/2-ball hit more accurately than a CTE edge-identification/alignment/bridge-placement/pivot-to-center technique. The peace-sign method only requires one step, and no significant judgment (if you use Billy_Bob's trick). The CTE approach requires many steps, many of which require judgment.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

You got action. I might be at the Vegas thing in May. Come on out. I'll pencil ya in my schedule. You're not picking anything up within 1 degree - pahleeese. I'll setup 15 balls within a few degrees of each other and let your 1 degree-accurate peace sign pick out the shot. :rolleyes:

I hope your fans stick around to look at the goofiness with you "peacing" the shots. You CAN do it about 7% of the time - that I'll believe.

I'd much rather get a beer with you than that flat-out STEAL your money like that.
 
Last edited:
dr_dave said:
Spidey,

I won't be at the SBE, but I think I would take your bet, depending on how close to the 30-degree cut angle you expect me to detect. I think I can do it fairly well within about 1 degree. I'm sure I could also teach you how to do this if you wanted. I don't like to spoon feed you, but all you need (including the quote from Billy_Bob) is described and demonstrated here:

I would think that my peace-sign technique could identify a 1/2-ball hit more accurately than a CTE edge-identification/alignment/bridge-placement/pivot-to-center technique. The peace-sign method only requires one step, and no significant judgment (if you use Billy_Bob's trick). The CTE approach requires many steps, many of which require judgment.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Maybe BD should put your articles in the instigator section instead of instructional, If you wait Roger is going to solve the mystery. Look for his next article lol
 
SpiderWebComm said:
You don't. I don't think anyone on here can (forget that peace sign waste of time). I can setup 15 balls on the table with one being a true 1/2 ball hit and no one on here can pick it out. My point was if it WERE a true half-ball hit and after you pivot-- you'd then be looking down it.

If anyone on here thinks they can pick out a 1/2 ball hit with a peace sign, come track me down at the SBE. I'll bet $20/guess until you quit.
Click to expand...

tell me how this cte works.
i cant read this whole thing to much.
 
peteypooldude said:
If you wait Roger is going to solve the mystery. Look for his next article
Click to expand...
I'm actually very much looking forward to the last article in Roger's series, which will finally explain what CTE is. The suspense is killing me. I wish he would just post it and put all of this misery to an end. :banghead:

Seriously, I do look forward to Roger's article, Stan's DVD, and Spidey's tome (if he ever finishes it). The debates have gone on for countless years, and we still don't have a consistent, substantive, and understandable description of what CTE is ... much less, how it works. That's a bit ridiculous, IMO. :confused:

Regards,
Dave
 
peteypooldude said:
Maybe BD should put your articles in the instigator section instead of instructional, If you wait Roger is going to solve the mystery. Look for his next article lol
Click to expand...

To be fair, I instigated - but only because I know that peace sign thing is worthless in identifying true 1/2 ball hits and I knew Dr. Dave would chime in to defend it. It can be close - sure - and an ok little tool for total beginners--- but that's all it is.
 

Attachments

  • peace.jpg
    peace.jpg
    42.9 KB · Views: 268
dr_dave said:
I'm actually very much looking forward to the last article in Roger's series, which will finally explain what CTE is. The suspense is killing me. I wish he would just post it and put all of this misery to an end. :banghead:

Seriously, I do look forward to Roger's article, Stan's DVD, and Spidey's tome (if he ever finishes it). The debates have gone on for countless years, and we still don't have a consistent, substantive, and understandable description of what CTE is ... much less, how it works. That's a bit ridiculous, IMO. :confused:

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...
I am curious about his article also. He has not been to Stan as far as I know. I wonder if it will be opinion or have a valid source. I know how it works but not why. The increase in my performance was evidence enough
for me.
 
It was not that long ago, that the mere mention of Hal's name started a flurry of attacks, and name calling (Houlegans) against him and his innovative systems, and anyone who used them. Now almost all of the instructors are using bits and pieces of his methods. It is nice to see, that at least some of the instructors, are willing to give him his due. I believe that some day in the future, people will look back and realize that he and his techniques, were a head of their time. There has never been more, and better players in the world, than there are right now, and I have no doubt, Hal is one of the reasons.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
You don't. I don't think anyone on here can (forget that peace sign waste of time). I can setup 15 balls on the table with one being a true 1/2 ball hit and no one on here can pick it out. My point was if it WERE a true half-ball hit and after you pivot-- you'd then be looking down it.

If anyone on here thinks they can pick out a 1/2 ball hit with a peace sign, come track me down at the SBE. I'll bet $20/guess until you quit.
Click to expand...

I won't use a peace sign, but I can estimate angles up to about 34 degrees to within +/- 1 degree. Slightly less accuracy 34-50 degrees.

Why would you think this can't be done? The approach has been well described. Can CTE tell you the difference between a 6 and a 9 degree cut? It's easy for me.

I'm not interested in your money, but would be happy to demonstrate it for you should we ever meet. I will tell you though, getting the angle is easier than matching it to the correct aim point, and then actually hitting that point.
 
Spidey:
If anyone on here thinks they can pick out a 1/2 ball hit with a peace sign, come track me down at the SBE. I'll bet $20/guess until you quit.
Click to expand...
What does "pick out a 1/2 ball hit" mean? How will you determine if it's successfully done or not?

that peace sign thing is worthless in identifying true 1/2 ball hits
Click to expand...
What does "identifying true 1/2 ball hits" mean? How can it be accurately done?

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:
AtLarge said:
How do you know it's supposed to be an exact half-ball hit?

You and Hal have recommended using CTE with a pivot on straight shots because "how do you know it's straight?"

With CTE you only judge whether a shot is thick or thin (or maybe thinner, too). You don't look at a contact point or a ghost ball.

How do you know it's a half-ball hit?
Click to expand...


Why was this question dodged by trying to deflect it away by making fun of someone eles methods????

I am really curious of the answer to this...If you can't identify a straight in shot...how can you identify a 1/2 ball hit???

Trust me..I know how...I just don't know withing the CTE methods...

Furthermore....if you can identify the 1/2 ball hit...why can't you identify the straight in or the 1/4 ball hit??

And furthermore...if you can...why on earth do you need to pivot to get there????

The above is the whole jist of why I don't understand why to use this system over a center to center conversion to a 3-line system..

using center to center...I can identify a half ball hit very quickly....and/or if it is a "hair" under or over that half ball hit.
 
What does "pick out a 1/2 ball hit" mean? How will you determine if it's successfully done or not?


What does "identifying true 1/2 ball hits" mean? How can it be accurately done?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
cookie man:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...rule.html#hand
Click to expand...
I'm more familiar with that than you are. It doesn't tell you how to tell when a 1/2 ball hit is made; it tells you how to estimate where the cue ball will go when you make a 1/2 ball hit. This kind of specificity (and its importance) seems lost on you and Spidey, but without it you can't tell what was bet or who won. That's why it doesn't make sense to bet (or accept "challenges") with either of you.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I'm more familiar with that than you are. It doesn't tell you how to tell when a 1/2 ball hit is made; it tells you how to estimate where the cue ball will go when you make a 1/2 ball hit. This kind of specificity (and its importance) seems lost on you and Spidey, but without it you can't tell what was bet or who won. That's why it doesn't make sense to bet (or accept "challenges") with either of you.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. The last time you accepted a bet with me you welched out of a $3000 bet and MIA'd for a month. I think you bet that the bridge had to be the pivot point geometrically and mechanically and that is a "math-certainty."

Well, I never got paid. But your buddy Dr. Dave coined a new phrase after that called "effective pivot length." Whatddya know?

See:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html

P.S. I think you owe me your cue too and perma-banishment as well. SOOOOO, the reason why we don't bet anymore is because you don't pay. God, it took me forever to delete all those annoying PMs asking me to let up on ya and let you out.
 
real bartram said:
tell me how this cte works.
i cant read this whole thing to much.
Click to expand...

Originally Posted by Hal Houle

There are only 3 angles for any shot, on any size table. This includes; caroms, single rail banks, double rail banks, 1, 2, 3, and 4 rail banks, and double kiss banks. Any table has a 2 to 1 ratio; 3 1/2 x 7, 4 x 8, 4 x 9, 5 x 10, 6 x 12. It is always twice as long as it is wide. The table corners are 90 degree angles. When you lay a cue from the side pocket to the corner pocket, you are forming an angle of 45 degrees. When you lay a cue from the side pocket to the middle diamond on the same end rail, you are forming an angle of 30 degrees. When you lay a cue from the side pocket to the first diamond on the same end rail, you are forming an angle of 15 degrees. When you add up these 3 angles, they total 90 degrees, which is the same angle formed by the table corners. The cue ball relation to object ball relation shot angle is always 15, 30, or 45 degrees. The solution is very simple. There are only 2 edges on the cue ball to aim with, and they are always exactly in the same place on the cue ball. There are only 3 exact spots on the object ball to aim to, and they are always exactly in the same place on the object ball. So, 2 edges on the cue ball, and 3 spots on the object ball; 2 x 3 = 6 which is the total number of table pockets. This means that, depending upon how the cue ball and object ball lie in relation to one another, you may either pocket the object ball directly into a pocket or bank it into any one of the remaining 5 pockets. Of course, the reverse is true. If the relationship of cue ball to object ball can only be a bank, so be it. There is never a need to look at a pocket or cushion while lining up the edge on the cue ball to the spot on the object ball. You have only those 3 angles Your only requirement is to recognize whether your shot is a 15, 30, or 45 degree angle. Recognizing those 3 angles can be accomplished in an instant by aiming the edge of the cue ball to one of the spots on the object ball. It will be obvious which object ball spot is correct. There will be no doubt. Any time either one of the 2 edges on the cue ball is aimed at any one of the 3 spots on the object ball, that object ball must go to a pocket. Choose the correct spot and the object ball will most certainly go to the chosen pocket. The top professional players in the game have always known about this professional aiming system, but they are a closed fraternity, and you are the enemy. Interested in where those spots are located?

The 2 places on the cue ball are the left edge of the cue ball when you are cutting the object ball to the left; and the right edge of the cue ball when you are cutting the object ball to the right. The 3 spots on the object ball are the quarters, and the center. The quarters and center of the object ball face straight at the edges of your cue ball, not facing toward the pocket. In other words, if you were on a work-bench at home, there would be no pocket, so you would just line up the edge of the cue ball straight to your target on the object ball. When you cut to the left for 15 degrees, aim the left cue ball edge at the object ball left quarter. When you cut to the left for 30 degrees, aim the cue ball left edge at the object ball center. When you cut to the left for 45 degrees, aim the cue ball left edge at the object ball right quarter. When you cut to the right for 15 degrees, you aim the cue ball right edge at the object ball right quarter. When you cut to the right for 30 degrees, you aim the cue ball right edge at the object center. When you cut to the right for 45 degrees, you aim the right cue ball edge to the object ball left quarter. If you'll just get down and aim your old way, you'll be close to where you should be aiming. Look to see (without changing your head or eye position) just where the cue ball edge is aiming at the object ball. You'll see that on every shot that the cue ball edge is always aiming at the same targets on the object ball. Remember, this system is for any shot on the table; banks, caroms, combinations, and so forth. The only shot remaining is the extreme cut for any shot over 45 degrees. Aim the cue ball edge to the eighth of the object ball (which is half of the quarter). Don't let the pocket influence you. Have a friend hold the ball tray between the object ball and the pocket, so you cannot see the pocket, and you'll see that those 3 angles will handle just about anything. Of course, you would have chosen the 15, 30, or 45 degree angle before your friend put the ball tray in place. It also makes it much more interesting if you don't tell your friend how you are pocketing the ball without seeing the pocket. Have some fun. For any questions, call me. Regards, POOL HAL.

Regards,
 
Patrick Johnson said:
cookie man:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/30_and_90_degree_rule.html#hand
I'm more familiar with that than you are. It doesn't tell you how to tell when a 1/2 ball hit is made; it tells you how to estimate where the cue ball will go when you make a 1/2 ball hit.
Click to expand...
The peace sign is not an "aiming system," but it is extremely useful for accurately predicting rolling ball (CB or OB) deflection angles for a range of shots between 1/4-ball and 3/4-ball hit. This is useful for scratch avoidance, position play, aiming caroms and billiards, planning break-out shots, getting through traffic, lining up ball-in-hand safeties, etc!

A 30-degree peace sign can be used as an average deflection angle, but the peace sign can also be modified slightly to improve the accuracy over the range. It can also be shifted to account for speed effects. Also, the peace sign can be used to determine if a shot is a 1/2-ball hit or not (i.e., to check if the cut angle is greater than, less than, or equal to 30 degrees). FYI, all of these things are demonstrated clearly here:
and additional resources (articles, illustrations, a one-page summary, video demos, technical analysis, etc.) can be found here:

BTW, a peace sign can also be used to implement the draw-shot trisect system.

Spidey, cookie man, eezbank, and peteypooldude obviously picked the wrong "system" to pick on. The peace sign rules. It is probably the one thing in pool that can literally be learned in a few minutes and immediately be put to effective use at the table. This can't be said for many things in pool, not even the most magical version of CTE (whatever that might be).

May the Force be with you,
Dave
 
Last edited:
LAMas said:
Originally Posted by Hal Houle

There are only 3 angles for any shot, on any size table. This includes; caroms, single rail banks, double rail banks, 1, 2, 3, and 4 rail banks, and double kiss banks. Any table has a 2 to 1 ratio; 3 1/2 x 7, 4 x 8, 4 x 9, 5 x 10, 6 x 12. It is always twice as long as it is wide. The table corners are 90 degree angles. When you lay a cue from the side pocket to the corner pocket, you are forming an angle of 45 degrees. When you lay a cue from the side pocket to the middle diamond on the same end rail, you are forming an angle of 30 degrees. When you lay a cue from the side pocket to the first diamond on the same end rail, you are forming an angle of 15 degrees. When you add up these 3 angles, they total 90 degrees, which is the same angle formed by the table corners. The cue ball relation to object ball relation shot angle is always 15, 30, or 45 degrees. The solution is very simple. There are only 2 edges on the cue ball to aim with, and they are always exactly in the same place on the cue ball. There are only 3 exact spots on the object ball to aim to, and they are always exactly in the same place on the object ball. So, 2 edges on the cue ball, and 3 spots on the object ball; 2 x 3 = 6 which is the total number of table pockets. This means that, depending upon how the cue ball and object ball lie in relation to one another, you may either pocket the object ball directly into a pocket or bank it into any one of the remaining 5 pockets. Of course, the reverse is true. If the relationship of cue ball to object ball can only be a bank, so be it. There is never a need to look at a pocket or cushion while lining up the edge on the cue ball to the spot on the object ball. You have only those 3 angles Your only requirement is to recognize whether your shot is a 15, 30, or 45 degree angle. Recognizing those 3 angles can be accomplished in an instant by aiming the edge of the cue ball to one of the spots on the object ball. It will be obvious which object ball spot is correct. There will be no doubt. Any time either one of the 2 edges on the cue ball is aimed at any one of the 3 spots on the object ball, that object ball must go to a pocket. Choose the correct spot and the object ball will most certainly go to the chosen pocket. The top professional players in the game have always known about this professional aiming system, but they are a closed fraternity, and you are the enemy. Interested in where those spots are located?

The 2 places on the cue ball are the left edge of the cue ball when you are cutting the object ball to the left; and the right edge of the cue ball when you are cutting the object ball to the right. The 3 spots on the object ball are the quarters, and the center. The quarters and center of the object ball face straight at the edges of your cue ball, not facing toward the pocket. In other words, if you were on a work-bench at home, there would be no pocket, so you would just line up the edge of the cue ball straight to your target on the object ball. When you cut to the left for 15 degrees, aim the left cue ball edge at the object ball left quarter. When you cut to the left for 30 degrees, aim the cue ball left edge at the object ball center. When you cut to the left for 45 degrees, aim the cue ball left edge at the object ball right quarter. When you cut to the right for 15 degrees, you aim the cue ball right edge at the object ball right quarter. When you cut to the right for 30 degrees, you aim the cue ball right edge at the object center. When you cut to the right for 45 degrees, you aim the right cue ball edge to the object ball left quarter. If you'll just get down and aim your old way, you'll be close to where you should be aiming. Look to see (without changing your head or eye position) just where the cue ball edge is aiming at the object ball. You'll see that on every shot that the cue ball edge is always aiming at the same targets on the object ball. Remember, this system is for any shot on the table; banks, caroms, combinations, and so forth. The only shot remaining is the extreme cut for any shot over 45 degrees. Aim the cue ball edge to the eighth of the object ball (which is half of the quarter). Don't let the pocket influence you. Have a friend hold the ball tray between the object ball and the pocket, so you cannot see the pocket, and you'll see that those 3 angles will handle just about anything. Of course, you would have chosen the 15, 30, or 45 degree angle before your friend put the ball tray in place. It also makes it much more interesting if you don't tell your friend how you are pocketing the ball without seeing the pocket. Have some fun. For any questions, call me. Regards, POOL HAL.

Regards,
Click to expand...

is this why i aim left when i hit right
and aim right when i hit left?
 
Dr Dave,

I recommend you remove CTE instructions from your website, at least the two versions I followed in my test. Reasons why:

1. They did not work
2. CTE users on this thread said they were bad instructions after my test results.
3. I'd hate for someone else to waste time like I did trying to follow them.

Thank you.
 
bartram, seriously, you haven't messed with any of these systems? Or are you just rattling our cages? lol
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top