Why Does Every Great Player Need A Stakehorse
- Thread starter cornfed
- Start date
maybe if pool actually paid out prize money where you weren't destitute even when you win, you'd see more out of pocket wagers like in golf, but as it stands now, pool payouts SUCK !
So after bills are paid, most pool players have little left to toss around in big games unless they want to end up sleeping on the street.
So after bills are paid, most pool players have little left to toss around in big games unless they want to end up sleeping on the street.
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i think it works to kind of take pressure off of the player and improve the player and backers chances of winnign. i'll play anyone in the world on someone elses dime
What SUPERSTAR says is correct. There's a young man in my area who plays strong, winning quite a few tournaments. He has a wife and a couple of young children who he adores. This guy loves to gamble, and when he bets his own dough, he seems to fumble, but when he gets backed, he plays like a champ.
In case nobody knows it, though most on this forum do, pool is a rich man's high. Just playing pool in the continental United States, for example, attending two, three, or four events per month would cost approximately 30- to $40,000 per annum. Playing pool on an international level, the cost per annum would be double that. Sadly, many aspiring American pros have left the competitive pool scene to go to school, pursue a career, or attempt to keep a roof over their head.
MANY Filipinos that I know are staked in tournaments here in America, and this affords them the opportunity to travel and compete in more tournaments than if they paid their own way. Fortunately for Filipinos, the pool culture in the Philippines is quite different than the States. This affords Filipinos many in-country sponsors allowing them to compete in numerous events they could not otherwise if they had to pay their own way.
Here in the States, by comparison to the Philippines, American players aren't quite so fortunate. There are a few sponsored Americans, but not as many as the Philippines. One player who hails from The Netherlands is sponsored by his country's Olympic Committee, and in talking with him, he still has to pick and choose his events wisely, sometimes skipping high-profile events like the BCA Open because the expenses are too high.
The weekend tournaments are the best bang for the buck, I've always said. The week-long tournaments, though they're a lot of fun, are expensive when you add up the hotel, travel, entry fee, food, and miscellaneous expenses. Most American events, you must win, place, or show in order to just break even. This is a fact.
So, if a player is lucky enough to find him- or herself a backer or stakehorse, this enables him or her to attend events that he or she otherwise cannot afford. Compare the payouts from 1987 to 2007 in American pool, and they are just about the same amounts. Yet, the cost of living has risen drastically. American pool, in my eyes, is dying a slow death. Long-established independently run events have ceased to exist because the promoters can't break even, and as well, the pool players can't break even on the expenses.
The best backer arrangement I have ever heard of in recent times is when the current U.S. Open champion John Schmidt got backed to attend the U.S. Open, and he won the whole shebang. Dreams do come true, and in this instance, the backer-player relationship was a good one.
So, in sum, why does every great player need a stakehorse? Well, not every great player needs a stakehorse, but if they are unsponsored, have strong shooting skills, and desire to compete on a regular basis, the stakehorse can open a doors that otherwise would remain shut for the great player. This is the sad state of affairs in American pool.
That's my story, and I'm sticking with it!
JAM
In case nobody knows it, though most on this forum do, pool is a rich man's high. Just playing pool in the continental United States, for example, attending two, three, or four events per month would cost approximately 30- to $40,000 per annum. Playing pool on an international level, the cost per annum would be double that. Sadly, many aspiring American pros have left the competitive pool scene to go to school, pursue a career, or attempt to keep a roof over their head.
MANY Filipinos that I know are staked in tournaments here in America, and this affords them the opportunity to travel and compete in more tournaments than if they paid their own way. Fortunately for Filipinos, the pool culture in the Philippines is quite different than the States. This affords Filipinos many in-country sponsors allowing them to compete in numerous events they could not otherwise if they had to pay their own way.
Here in the States, by comparison to the Philippines, American players aren't quite so fortunate. There are a few sponsored Americans, but not as many as the Philippines. One player who hails from The Netherlands is sponsored by his country's Olympic Committee, and in talking with him, he still has to pick and choose his events wisely, sometimes skipping high-profile events like the BCA Open because the expenses are too high.
The weekend tournaments are the best bang for the buck, I've always said. The week-long tournaments, though they're a lot of fun, are expensive when you add up the hotel, travel, entry fee, food, and miscellaneous expenses. Most American events, you must win, place, or show in order to just break even. This is a fact.
So, if a player is lucky enough to find him- or herself a backer or stakehorse, this enables him or her to attend events that he or she otherwise cannot afford. Compare the payouts from 1987 to 2007 in American pool, and they are just about the same amounts. Yet, the cost of living has risen drastically. American pool, in my eyes, is dying a slow death. Long-established independently run events have ceased to exist because the promoters can't break even, and as well, the pool players can't break even on the expenses.
The best backer arrangement I have ever heard of in recent times is when the current U.S. Open champion John Schmidt got backed to attend the U.S. Open, and he won the whole shebang. Dreams do come true, and in this instance, the backer-player relationship was a good one.
So, in sum, why does every great player need a stakehorse? Well, not every great player needs a stakehorse, but if they are unsponsored, have strong shooting skills, and desire to compete on a regular basis, the stakehorse can open a doors that otherwise would remain shut for the great player. This is the sad state of affairs in American pool.
That's my story, and I'm sticking with it!
JAM
Jam,
Try the pool players wages from 1907.
Jamison
Try the pool players wages from 1907.
Jamison
Stakehorse gets money if the player wins, and looses nothing when the player acts like a cry baby or a little cash if the player looses. A sponser gets no cash when a player wins but they have there rep. on the line and hopefully that player will help them sell some goods and spark interest in the game, I'd say thats worth more than a few bucks if the player looses. Say the player blows up and acts like a jerk or says something offensive(ie. Earl Strickland), the sponser takes a much bigger hit than a few bucks. I think this is why pool will never be as big as golf, I here a lot of people compare it to golf and ask why the money is not as good? Well I golfed for a while and now I shoot pool, seems to me that there are too many hustlers in pool, its all about getting a buck or two, I see the best players in my area trying to hustle every road player or local guy that comes through when they can beat them straight up no problem and yet there saying I need this or that, just to much hustling in pool. Not enough sportsmanship and honor, I see guys lie in matches all the time, I see them make a foul and say nothing, who wants to sponsor this type of person? Golf just has more people that work hard at there game and personality and do it with honor seeing how they call penaltys on themselves(not saying golfers don't bend some rules when they are playing a round but lets face it, you won't be a pro in golf if the only time you shoot under par is when no one is watching), some are born to play golf like some are born to play pool, but more work hard at there game and make nothing, they play in small tours and get local sponsors until they catch a break or get good enough to move into the PGA. NOTE, there are countless people that play pool honestly, I'm just saying I have seen more pool players at a high level than golfers who hustle, lie, and cheat there way to wins. Until the attitude of the great men pool players change and they work to build the game of pool up so a serious money tour can form around them it won't happen, the IPT was a pipe dream, I even heard in one of the ipt events where KT(who I think is an ass and a crook) was giving an extra $1000 for banking the eight to win the game, that players started making deals when the matches were pretty much decided so they could go for the extra cash, who wants to sponsor people like that?
Also, almost all the best pool players in my area have bad gambling problems, they win weekly tournaments that takes 4 hours a night and then blow it at the casino in less than an hour on slots or BJ ect.. If they saved half the tournament money they won they might be able to stake themselves in some bigger pool matches.
Pool is an indoor game that can be played year round, I think there is no reason it could not be as big or bigger than golf. Also its cheaper for the average person to play. I just wish the great players would work with the companies to promote this game and a tour and I think the payoff would follow in time.
I play pool almost everyday, I am not trying to offend poolplayers but I am sure that many of you have seen what I am talking about.
Also, almost all the best pool players in my area have bad gambling problems, they win weekly tournaments that takes 4 hours a night and then blow it at the casino in less than an hour on slots or BJ ect.. If they saved half the tournament money they won they might be able to stake themselves in some bigger pool matches.
Pool is an indoor game that can be played year round, I think there is no reason it could not be as big or bigger than golf. Also its cheaper for the average person to play. I just wish the great players would work with the companies to promote this game and a tour and I think the payoff would follow in time.
I play pool almost everyday, I am not trying to offend poolplayers but I am sure that many of you have seen what I am talking about.
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cornfed said:
i'm not getting you....
are you denegrating pro players because they don't play with their own money,,,and exalting the seedy hustlers who carry all their worth in their pants pocket and play for their bread by hustling kids/yuppies who don't know butt from tip? you can't see the beauty of a well played game, but only give merit to games where someone's breakfast is on the line. i guess mika doesn't have your respect, but spanish eddie does.
you're a true devotee of the game.
Career is the best option
If he truly loves his family as you claim, then he will not gamble away their future in a no win situation. He will go and get a career of some kind so that his family can eat on a regular basis and not have to hope that daddy wins enough that night for burgers. Pool is a dead end now and trying to make a living at it in this day and age is ridiculous. I love pool as much as the next person but I also know that in order to pay my bills, work ALWAYS comes first.JAM said:
Why is this sad? If reality is sad, we better all have a good cry. I hope I win the lottery one day too so I can go play pool all day but let's get real. Pay the bills first and when the opportunity presents itself, grab the cues and go make some balls.JAM said:
Da Poet said:
Agreed. I think he hardly has the right to judge someone else, and the morality of the situation is not what this thread is about. I agree with JAM, it's sad for the game and for the players. It's sad when anybody can't do what they love because they have to do other things to make a living.
great post!
JAM,
Great post. Great to hear from somebody who I suspect is often the stakehorse for someone who has been a high level player for many years too. Your win, place, show, or lose money comment is usually accurate.
Pool is blessed with a fairly level playing field now meaning nobody can count on finishing top three every time. It can be very hard to look at things long term. You may know that you are almost certain to be in the black at the end of the year but coughing up fifteen, twenty thousand, or more along the way can be tough. People who are sponsored or coming off of big wins always have it easier because the brutal facts of needing to win to survive aren't staring them in the face. Top sixteen at a three day or longer event should cover expenses and have something left over, maybe not a fortune for sixteenth but at least an average week's wage.
While I am daydreaming, someone finishing top eight in two or three nightly tournaments a week should net a week's wages too. One problem with the level of play in the US is that we have no formal feeder program. A player goes from banger to a starvation tour to the big time if they are good enough usually by way of some gambling on the side. A pro shouldn't have to rely on gambling to live. In truth it makes them a gambler that plays pool, not a pool player that gambles. A fine distinction but when most pool players are faced with the choice of matching up for serious dollars and a fierce battle or matching up with someone who isn't a player but likes to match up with players for the same dollars, reality forces them to go with the safer game.
All pool needs is more money and a little better class of people in some cases. Of course that is all that most of the worst ghettoes in every city needs too.
Hu
JAM,
Great post. Great to hear from somebody who I suspect is often the stakehorse for someone who has been a high level player for many years too. Your win, place, show, or lose money comment is usually accurate.
Pool is blessed with a fairly level playing field now meaning nobody can count on finishing top three every time. It can be very hard to look at things long term. You may know that you are almost certain to be in the black at the end of the year but coughing up fifteen, twenty thousand, or more along the way can be tough. People who are sponsored or coming off of big wins always have it easier because the brutal facts of needing to win to survive aren't staring them in the face. Top sixteen at a three day or longer event should cover expenses and have something left over, maybe not a fortune for sixteenth but at least an average week's wage.
While I am daydreaming, someone finishing top eight in two or three nightly tournaments a week should net a week's wages too. One problem with the level of play in the US is that we have no formal feeder program. A player goes from banger to a starvation tour to the big time if they are good enough usually by way of some gambling on the side. A pro shouldn't have to rely on gambling to live. In truth it makes them a gambler that plays pool, not a pool player that gambles. A fine distinction but when most pool players are faced with the choice of matching up for serious dollars and a fierce battle or matching up with someone who isn't a player but likes to match up with players for the same dollars, reality forces them to go with the safer game.
All pool needs is more money and a little better class of people in some cases. Of course that is all that most of the worst ghettoes in every city needs too.
Hu
JAM said:What SUPERSTAR says is correct. There's a young man in my area who plays strong, winning quite a few tournaments. He has a wife and a couple of young children who he adores. This guy loves to gamble, and when he bets his own dough, he seems to fumble, but when he gets backed, he plays like a champ.
In case nobody knows it, though most on this forum do, pool is a rich man's high. Just playing pool in the continental United States, for example, attending two, three, or four events per month would cost approximately 30- to $40,000 per annum. Playing pool on an international level, the cost per annum would be double that. Sadly, many aspiring American pros have left the competitive pool scene to go to school, pursue a career, or attempt to keep a roof over their head.
MANY Filipinos that I know are staked in tournaments here in America, and this affords them the opportunity to travel and compete in more tournaments than if they paid their own way. Fortunately for Filipinos, the pool culture in the Philippines is quite different than the States. This affords Filipinos many in-country sponsors allowing them to compete in numerous events they could not otherwise if they had to pay their own way.
Here in the States, by comparison to the Philippines, American players aren't quite so fortunate. There are a few sponsored Americans, but not as many as the Philippines. One player who hails from The Netherlands is sponsored by his country's Olympic Committee, and in talking with him, he still has to pick and choose his events wisely, sometimes skipping high-profile events like the BCA Open because the expenses are too high.
The weekend tournaments are the best bang for the buck, I've always said. The week-long tournaments, though they're a lot of fun, are expensive when you add up the hotel, travel, entry fee, food, and miscellaneous expenses. Most American events, you must win, place, or show in order to just break even. This is a fact.
So, if a player is lucky enough to find him- or herself a backer or stakehorse, this enables him or her to attend events that he or she otherwise cannot afford. Compare the payouts from 1987 to 2007 in American pool, and they are just about the same amounts. Yet, the cost of living has risen drastically. American pool, in my eyes, is dying a slow death. Long-established independently run events have ceased to exist because the promoters can't break even, and as well, the pool players can't break even on the expenses.
The best backer arrangement I have ever heard of in recent times is when the current U.S. Open champion John Schmidt got backed to attend the U.S. Open, and he won the whole shebang. Dreams do come true, and in this instance, the backer-player relationship was a good one.
So, in sum, why does every great player need a stakehorse? Well, not every great player needs a stakehorse, but if they are unsponsored, have strong shooting skills, and desire to compete on a regular basis, the stakehorse can open a doors that otherwise would remain shut for the great player. This is the sad state of affairs in American pool.
That's my story, and I'm sticking with it!
JAM
ShootingArts said:
Gambling is the main attraction for many a pool player. The tournaments sometimes -- not all -- represent opportunities for players to gather. The action men, not tournament soldiers, immediately put their feelers out, planning for the days ahead. Gambling, fortunately or unfortunately, is a means of income for some pool players.
As I write this, players and stakehorses with deep pockets are gathering in Las Vegas. Just heard it through the grapevine!
I never liked Vegas for a pool tournament venue. TOO MANY distractions.
Pool is popular in the Philippines, and they sure do gamble over there. Why it should be eliminated from the American pool scene is beyond me, but there is one school of thought that this breed of pool player is scum of the earth and should be eliminated.
Yep, pool is a rich man's high. Make no mistake about it. If you're fortunate enough to get staked in a tournament, it takes a lot of pressure off you financially and allows you to give your best performance.
JAM
cornfed said:
Robert (Evil) Knevel one said that he will play anybody any game for any amount on one condition.... That they use their own money. He said none of the pros are ever under any pressure because they are never playing with their own money and they have nothing to lose.
TheBook said:
Buddy Hall was the same way back in the day. He had a stakehorse out of Tampa, TR McLintock. If you thought you were a bad ass, when you met this guy, you felt like a stepped on gum wrapper on the floor. He is one bad ass mo-fo.
Tommy Kennedy had a stakehorse also, some guy from Orlando.
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Why haven't I seen anyone arguing the obvious..
The answer to question posed in this thread is: THEY DON'T
Many great players over the years have staked themselves whenever possible.
The situations that DO require a backer are those of heavy action, i.e. 10k, 20k, 50k...
These players are great because they play pool for a living. The biggest tournaments have payouts of 20-50k (I'm of course not going to include the IPT). These guys have expenses and have to eat like the rest of us so they don't have tens of thousands laying around.
This thread was started by cornfed, who I assume is either Bucktooth or a close associate and seemed to be questioning the "heart" of players that use other people's money. My question to Tooth is this: How much heart would YOU have if you weren't getting the 7 and the last three? Or playing one-hole getting 9-3?
The answer to question posed in this thread is: THEY DON'T
Many great players over the years have staked themselves whenever possible.
The situations that DO require a backer are those of heavy action, i.e. 10k, 20k, 50k...
These players are great because they play pool for a living. The biggest tournaments have payouts of 20-50k (I'm of course not going to include the IPT). These guys have expenses and have to eat like the rest of us so they don't have tens of thousands laying around.
This thread was started by cornfed, who I assume is either Bucktooth or a close associate and seemed to be questioning the "heart" of players that use other people's money. My question to Tooth is this: How much heart would YOU have if you weren't getting the 7 and the last three? Or playing one-hole getting 9-3?