Why Does Every Great Player Need A Stakehorse

[ShootingArts]

gambling

JAM,

I don't mind gambling. I just don't think that a professional in any real sport should have to rely on gambling to survive. If I were a gambling man I would bet that there is far more wagered on golf every year than is bet on pool, however professional golf players in the top 150 or so don't have to bet to survive.

I respect gamblers that can make a good living at it. I would never call one a professional athlete however. I want to see professional pool players making enough in competition that they can be respected as professionals in their sport and make a living on that alone. If they choose to gamble on the side that is their business.

I have to say that when gambling is the main attraction, the people are gamblers, not pool playing professionals. As I have said above, nothing wrong with that but there is a major difference in my mind. Love of the game itself I guess. Many pool players are turning to poker because that is where the dollars are at the moment. I understand that, I have changed life paths a few times myself. However, they are good examples of who I am talking about, people more concerned with gambling than playing pool. This applies to most professional players right now because of lack of choice. Without gambling, they can't afford to compete. That I find objectionable.

Hu

Gambling is the main attraction for many a pool player. The tournaments sometimes -- not all -- represent opportunities for players to gather. The action men, not tournament soldiers, immediately put their feelers out, planning for the days ahead. Gambling, fortunately or unfortunately, is a means of income for some pool players.

As I write this, players and stakehorses with deep pockets are gathering in Las Vegas. Just heard it through the grapevine!

I never liked Vegas for a pool tournament venue. TOO MANY distractions.

Pool is popular in the Philippines, and they sure do gamble over there. Why it should be eliminated from the American pool scene is beyond me, but there is one school of thought that this breed of pool player is scum of the earth and should be eliminated.

Yep, pool is a rich man's high. Make no mistake about it. If you're fortunate enough to get staked in a tournament, it takes a lot of pressure off you financially and allows you to give your best performance.

JAM

 

[JAM]

JAM,

I don't mind gambling. I just don't think that a professional in any real sport should have to rely on gambling to survive. If I were a gambling man I would bet that there is far more wagered on golf every year than is bet on pool, however professional golf players in the top 150 or so don't have to bet to survive.

I respect gamblers that can make a good living at it. I would never call one a professional athlete however. I want to see professional pool players making enough in competition that they can be respected as professionals in their sport and make a living on that alone. If they choose to gamble on the side that is their business.

I have to say that when gambling is the main attraction, the people are gamblers, not pool playing professionals. As I have said above, nothing wrong with that but there is a major difference in my mind. Love of the game itself I guess. Many pool players are turning to poker because that is where the dollars are at the moment. I understand that, I have changed life paths a few times myself. However, they are good examples of who I am talking about, people more concerned with gambling than playing pool. This applies to most professional players right now because of lack of choice. Without gambling, they can't afford to compete. That I find objectionable.

Hu

Welcome to American pool.

If you were to take a poll of American pool players, I'd venture to guess that those who do not gamble are in the minority. I have seen American tournament soldiers who used to not gamble change their ways after a year or two on the tournament trail.

Now, I am not saying that when a gambling pool player goes to the U.S. Open, he doesn't prepare for the event. I believe every pool player who enters the U.S. Open comes to Virginia with the desire to win the championship title. It means something to them.

However, gambling is as American as apple pie when it comes to pool.

JAM

 

[whitewolf]

All the great PLAYERS ???? can't get up and play there own money. They can all play great because its free they can shoot at anything and they loose nothing. Lets see them get up and bet there case money and if they loose they don't eat tomorrow.

In case you haven't noticed lately, gambling your own money is NO LONGER the measuring stick of how well you do under pressure, or if you can play or not.

Look at all the choking that took place in the IPT tournament with a million dollars at stake. This is what separated the men from the boys. This is what determines who can play and who can't, IMHO.

Oddly enough the Philipinos came out on top in the IPT- because I think it is a good probability that they gamble with there own money a lot etc. So in a sense, I am agreement with you, but not totally about the ultimate test.

On another note: I think only fools bet on pool games, especially where large stakes are involved. Pool, more than any other sport, has more players throwing tournaments, money matches and what not purely for the cash. It's all about the cash. This is changing a little now as I think some deciency is coming to pool.

Personally, I gamble better with my own money than being backed. Of course, I only gamble when I can afford to loose something. I think this is human nature to play better with your own money. In my opinion, a pool player who can only play using other people's money is a farce. So you see, I am agreement with you somewhat. However, people who bet their last dime on pool games are derelicts, and losers. So if you are going to praise this group of people who are gambling with their own money, you are nuts, because in the long run these dumb asses are going to end up broke every single time.

 

[Purdman]

Oddly enough the Philipinos came out on top in the IPT- because I think it is a good probability that they gamble with there own money a lot etc. So in a sense, I am agreement with you, but not totally about the ultimate test.

The Philipino players backers are known to pool their money and come to the US to gamble. That means that they have a couple million dollars to back the players. We don't do this in the US. This gives the Philipino players a lot of leverage. We really can't aford to gamble with them on these terms. I am not saying this is the case all the time but it was at the US Open in 2006.
Purdman

 

[CreeDo]

I'm with adanac. Guys like cornfed would point at the guy who played with the rent money and lost and say "good for you, you showed heart and I respect you", even though the guy can't buy a happy meal for his kid or has to go live in a refrigerator carton cuz he made a stupid gamble.

But the guy who is smart with his money (and also spreads some of his wealth around to a backer) is a chickensh*t and doesn't deserve respect?

Everyone's entitled to an opinion but at least staked players can play great under the right conditions. I bet guys like cornfed would look like they had palsy if they had to perform for 10s of thousands and/or on national TV, even without the rent money on the line.

Now we wait for the woofing where he claims to play for big money all the time

edit: I guess to be totally honest I'm also with jam... the point about being responsible and making a living some other way makes sense, but it IS kind of sad that a player is forced to do these things, which isn't true for a lot of people (like pretty much everyone in the nba and nfl etc.) I see pro pool as a job in the entertainment industry, people pay (sometimes indirectly) to watch you perform. That should be a viable living.

 

[Scottster]

All the great PLAYERS ???? can't get up and play there own money. They can all play great because its free they can shoot at anything and they loose nothing. Lets see them get up and bet there case money and if they loose they don't eat tomorrow.

FYI When Danny H. left on his road trip 3 weeks ago, he left WITH HIS OWN MONEY. Willing to take on all comers.

Of course, maybe you dont consider him a great player, I dont know.
Since he didn't take a buttload of money with him on the road, someone who didnt really want to play can start woofin' and try to highroll him to where he cant afford the matchup...UNLESS.. a stakehorse is around which will then see if we actually have a little boy cryin' wolf.

Just so you know, Danny has paid for all his entry fees for the Florida Pro Tour and the upcoming Predator World 10-Ball Championships, plus covering his traveling expenses.

Thankfully he has been fortunate to come across the generosity of great people to help alleviate some of the travel expenses by way of splitting hotel costs, or offering him a place to stay (Thanks Dave G, and Ted H).

How about you take your "Case Money" and play Danny for his "Case Money" and see who eats the next day?

If you dont catch my drift my point is, if all you have is $200.00 and all Danny has is $500.00 (exaggerated example of course) post it up and see whom is victorious.

Stupid you might say? Not as stupid as your original post.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

a Simple explanation, "POOL is a CARDGAME personified" ! Sponsors are the main players, the pool players are the hand, and the pool table is the deck. the stake is your wager (same).

So if the main players have a weak hand, it is understandable why they rather fold than bet on it.

 

[jay helfert]

All the great PLAYERS ???? can't get up and play there own money. They can all play great because its free they can shoot at anything and they loose nothing. Lets see them get up and bet there case money and if they loose they don't eat tomorrow.

Every great player does NOT need a stakehorse! Some do and some don't. It's as simple as that. And some do both. Sometimes Buddy bet his own, and sometimes he had some help. Depended on how big the game was. Johnny has played many big games on his own dime. Allen Hopkins almost always bet his own, as did Nick Varner. Danny Diliberto also.

So there are many exceptions to this statement. Jimmy Reid would empty out if he liked the game. Grady put his bankroll on the line hundreds of times. Billy Incardona was almost always covering all his own action. Richie Florence was always willing to bet the ranch on any game he made. Players like Jersey Red, Shorty, Ervolino, Ed Kelly and the like bet their own money many times. Cornbread would pull huge wads out of his pocket and throw it on the table, and say "match this".

Many players had backers, but would also throw their own money into the fray. Ronnie and Keith come to mind first. Even the guys who liked having backers would play for their own money if no backer was available. Guys like Sigel and Rempe put their own money on the line at times too.

Ronnie Wiseman has never been reluctant to make a bet with his own money. There are so many examples, I won't go on. So to make a blanket statement like this, is to either show a complete lack of knowledge, or just be trying to stir something up.

 

[JamisonNeu]

Probably not much different!!!

Really that was the golden age for pocket billiards. They used to have 50,000 dollar tourney's back then.

They have 50,000 dollar tourney's now (1 a year on average), but what would be the exchange rate from then to now?

Jamison

 

[diller47]

All the great PLAYERS ???? can't get up and play there own money. They can all play great because its free they can shoot at anything and they loose nothing. Lets see them get up and bet there case money and if they loose they don't eat tomorrow.

am i not getting the question here or what?it seems to me cornfed is asking about cash games,not tournaments.i could be wrong...as is usually the case but how much ''pressure ''is there if you cant afford a g-note or less to enter a tournamet.and you dont have to play in every tournament in the world .
maybe these people should have a steady income[i.e. job] then the pressure will be off.
that being said,when the time comes for big games theres room for stakehorses a plenty.
im not disagreeing with anyone just want to know what the real question was

 

[ccn7]

If he truly loves his family as you claim, then he will not gamble away their future in a no win situation. He will go and get a career of some kind so that his family can eat on a regular basis and not have to hope that daddy wins enough that night for burgers. Pool is a dead end now and trying to make a living at it in this day and age is ridiculous. I love pool as much as the next person but I also know that in order to pay my bills, work ALWAYS comes first.

Why is this sad? If reality is sad, we better all have a good cry. I hope I win the lottery one day too so I can go play pool all day but let's get real. Pay the bills first and when the opportunity presents itself, grab the cues and go make some balls.

I have to agree with Adana67 on some of this, when one has a family the family must come first. We all had dreams of doing things we all loved at one time or another. You have to get your priorities in order. Now a single person can chase that dream. You just cant commit to both in this day and age and expect to come out a winner.

Now I also have to agree with JAM it is sad that Pool doesnt allow someone to be able to follow that dream and still provide for the family.
The pay out in most cases are a joke and unless you win most the time they dont even pay for the 1/2 the expenses. Alot of the pro's play the after hour games to make the some money. Gambling and pool just go together.

Stakehorses and Backers are now part of the game, especially for the up and coming players. Sponsors are usualy more into well established high profile players. Pool is a tough sport that most dont understand.

Using a Stakehorse's money to gamble is just an acceptable practice it has become the norm. When payouts get bigger and more money goes to the players then i think more might be willing to bet their own.

 

[Adanac67]

Do you know this is a pool forum? Do you really not understand the context of what the original poster was saying?

Thanks for the reminder, I would have never known had you not told me. As far as the original message, I understood it fully. It would be nice if we could all live in a fantasy world where we could all make a living at pool. I would quit my career tomorrow if I could. However, I choose to live in the reality which is, in order to eat, you need to do something other than play pool. Sorry to rain on your fantasy.

As far as the stakehorse goes, they are everywhere and a part of the gambling scene and always will be but they only stick with you if you win. Thus you better keep winning......

 

[Scott Lee]

I see pro pool as a job in the entertainment industry, people pay (sometimes indirectly) to watch you perform. That should be a viable living.

tap, tap, tap...I've been saying this for 15 yrs! There could be hundreds of people doing what I'm doing (teaching and trick shot exhibitions)...all making six figure incomes. All it takes is integrity, a little personality, the right drive...and some measure of skill! Everybody's got the skill...it's one or more, of the other three parts, that's missing, and keeping them from cashing in.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Pushout]

Thanks for the reminder, I would have never known had you not told me. As far as the original message, I understood it fully. It would be nice if we could all live in a fantasy world where we could all make a living at pool. I would quit my career tomorrow if I could.

Sounds like sour grapes to me. I read your post as a moral judgment. I knew a guy who only played pool and the ponies for many years. His wife worked to support them both, in addition to what he made playing pool and betting on the horses. While I didn't always agree with that situation, I respected them both for what they were doing and they were happy that way.
By the statement "If he loved his family, etc", it sounded like a morality thing to me. You know nothing about this guy or his family. I'm sure he loves his family just as much as you love yours. I think you also made a statement about work comes first. My family comes first, then me, THEN my job. Everybody needs some kind of income to survive, just don't be so quick to condemn something you know nothing about.

 

[Adanac67]

I think you also made a statement about work comes first. My family comes first, then me, THEN my job. Everybody needs some kind of income to survive, just don't be so quick to condemn something you know nothing about.

Family is ALWAYS first or it better be. If your job is the last priority, that is never good. In order to put your family first, you need them to be comfortable and to do that, you need money. NO? As far as condemning, that's your call just as it was your call to condemn me for supposedly condemning him. We all have our opinions.

 

[JAM]

Professional pool.

"Professional" means a person's profession.

What some are suggesting is that championship-caliber pool players should play pool as a hobby or sideline and work a full-time job, get a profession, to make a living. That is okay, too, but that is not professional pool.

Unfortunately, it is not possible for most to compete on the tournament trail and hold down a profession in another field.

JAM