Why does this work?

[JC]

I spent a weekend with Robin Dreyer a couple of years ago and he showed me a shot and for the life of me I don't understand why it works but it does.

Any shot from anywhere that is half ball or less. Maximum inside english with a stroke speed and bridge length where the squirt and the throw cancel each other. We all understand what that sweet spot is right? Dr. Dave shows finding this spot in a video where you shoot maximum english straight in and the cue ball spins in place.

No regard whatsoever with the pocket. Don't even need to look at it. Aim your cue at exact center of the object ball and execute the correct stroke and the ball will split the pocket. As an added bonus if your balls are clean, the lighting good and the cue ball is within about 18 inches of the object ball you will see a white dot reflection of the cue ball at exact center object ball to aim at.

The shot breaks down at steeper angles and with very close or far distance between the balls but it has a very usable range once you learn it and don't try it outside of it's limits. This shot is not an aiming system but it's pretty cool and has many real world uses when you need to move the cue ball around. It's also good for shooting thin into the side pocket because the spin transmitted to the object ball sucks it into the pocket off the far pocket facing.

I believe there is some correlation between what happens on this shot and the CTE aiming system but can't quite put the pieces together in my mind. All I know is it really works and with practice it works very well. I just don't know why it works.

Any thoughts?

 

[Dan White]

I spent a weekend with Robin Dreyer a couple of years ago and he showed me a shot and for the life of me I don't understand why it works but it does.

Any shot from anywhere that is half ball or less. Maximum inside english with a stroke speed and bridge length where the squirt and the throw cancel each other. We all understand what that sweet spot is right? Dr. Dave shows finding this spot in a video where you shoot maximum english straight in and the cue ball spins in place.

You mean the cue's pivot point? This is where squirt is cancelled by the pivot, not throw.

No regard whatsoever with the pocket. Don't even need to look at it. Aim your cue at exact center of the object ball and execute the correct stroke and the ball will split the pocket. As an added bonus if your balls are clean, the lighting good and the cue ball is within about 18 inches of the object ball you will see a white dot reflection of the cue ball at exact center object ball to aim at.

The shot breaks down at steeper angles and with very close or far distance between the balls but it has a very usable range once you learn it and don't try it outside of it's limits. This shot is not an aiming system but it's pretty cool and has many real world uses when you need to move the cue ball around. It's also good for shooting thin into the side pocket because the spin transmitted to the object ball sucks it into the pocket off the far pocket facing.

I believe there is some correlation between what happens on this shot and the CTE aiming system but can't quite put the pieces together in my mind. All I know is it really works and with practice it works very well. I just don't know why it works.

Any thoughts?

Sounds like you are putting us on, or maybe are not describing the shot parameters completely.

 

[JC]

You mean the cue's pivot point? This is where squirt is cancelled by the pivot, not throw.



Sounds like you are putting us on, or maybe are not describing the shot parameters completely.

I mean the pivot point and stroke speed for your shaft whatever it may be where swerve and squirt cancel each other.

I am not putting you on in the slightest. The parameters are exactly as described. And right into the pocket she goes. I could make a video with curtains showing this. I almost could not believe it when Robin showed this to me. I have shown it to some local players who have the same results.

 

[BC21]

I spent a weekend with Robin Dreyer a couple of years ago and he showed me a shot and for the life of me I don't understand why it works but it does.

Any shot from anywhere that is half ball or less. Maximum inside english with a stroke speed and bridge length where the squirt and the throw cancel each other. We all understand what that sweet spot is right? Dr. Dave shows finding this spot in a video where you shoot maximum english straight in and the cue ball spins in place.

No regard whatsoever with the pocket. Don't even need to look at it. Aim your cue at exact center of the object ball and execute the correct stroke and the ball will split the pocket. As an added bonus if your balls are clean, the lighting good and the cue ball is within about 18 inches of the object ball you will see a white dot reflection of the cue ball at exact center object ball to aim at.

The shot breaks down at steeper angles and with very close or far distance between the balls but it has a very usable range once you learn it and don't try it outside of it's limits. This shot is not an aiming system but it's pretty cool and has many real world uses when you need to move the cue ball around. It's also good for shooting thin into the side pocket because the spin transmitted to the object ball sucks it into the pocket off the far pocket facing.

I believe there is some correlation between what happens on this shot and the CTE aiming system but can't quite put the pieces together in my mind. All I know is it really works and with practice it works very well. I just don't know why it works.

Any thoughts?

My thoughts and experience tell me it only works on a 1/2 ball shot for me. Basically, for my cue, using inside english requires about a 1/2 ball aiming offset. In other words, I can setup a halfball cut shot to the right, then aim through the right side of the cb, directly at center ob, and nail the shot. If I want to do this for a 3/4 shot to the right, I have to aim through the right side of the cb to the left quarter on the ob. And if it's a thinner cut, like a 1/4 aim, then I'd have to aim at the 3/4 mark with inside to pull it off. With my cue, using a certain speed and maximum inside spin, it's always a 1/2 ball adjustment for the aim.

I suppose I could vary my speed and get it to work as you describe, always aiming at center ob regardless of actual cut angle, but that seems like it would take too much table time to get consistent with the different speeds and distances.

 

[JC]

My thoughts and experience tell me it only works on a 1/2 ball shot for me. Basically, for my cue, using inside english requires about a 1/2 ball aiming offset. In other words, I can setup a halfball cut shot to the right, then aim through the right side of the cb, directly at center ob, and nail the shot. If I want to do this for a 3/4 shot to the right, I have to aim through the right side of the cb to the left quarter on the ob. And if it's a thinner cut, like a 1/4 aim, then I'd have to aim at the 3/4 mark with inside to pull it off. With my cue, using a certain speed and maximum inside spin, it's always a 1/2 ball adjustment for the aim.

I suppose I could vary my speed and get it to work as you describe, always aiming at center ob regardless of actual cut angle, but that seems like it would take too much table time to get consistent with the different speeds and distances.

I also wondered if it was just half ball hits when I first saw it but my experience shows it to work on most angles under half ball all the way to almost straight in. Remember to use maximum inside just before the miscue point. There are several shots that come up frequently that I have found this shot useful for.

 

[BC21]

I also wondered if it was just half ball hits when I first saw it but my experience shows it to work on most angles under half ball all the way to almost straight in. Remember to use maximum inside just before the miscue point. There are several shots that come up frequently that I have found this shot useful for.

Do you vary the speed? You would have to. Using the same spin at the same speed every time would produce the same cb deflection and swerve.

If I aim extreme spin on a nearly straight in shot I certainly won't have my stroke leading to center ob.

 

[JC]

Do you vary the speed? You would have to. Using the same spin at the same speed every time would produce the same cb deflection and swerve.

If I aim extreme spin on a nearly straight in shot I certainly won't have my stroke leading to center ob.

Distance from object ball is also a factor. There seems to be a "range" of all the table layout variables that's somewhat narrow but still encompasses a ton of shots that come up in which the shot works with the same stroke. When you play with it you come to recognize shots that fall within this range so you can be consistent. Most of these shots I would rather shoot without english but sometimes traffic considerations for shape make this a life saver.

 

[JC]

In case what I've been talking about sounds like nonsense here is a demonstration. Every single shot aiming through the cue ball edge to the center of the object ball. Never looked at the pocket these would have gone in through a curtain.

 

[LAMas]

Looking at the CB path after each hit is different

Distance from object ball is also a factor. There seems to be a "range" of all the table layout variables that's somewhat narrow but still encompasses a ton of shots that come up in which the shot works with the same stroke. When you play with it you come to recognize shots that fall within this range so you can be consistent. Most of these shots I would rather shoot without english but sometimes traffic considerations for shape make this a life saver.

True.
Put the CB and OB a few inches apart and CTE give a different cut angle than when the separation is say 5 feet apart.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

... the pivot point and stroke speed for your shaft whatever it may be where swerve and squirt cancel each other.

...would produce a consistent 15-degree cut.

It looks like you’re hitting the shots hard enough and from close enough to take swerve out of the equation.

pj
chgo

 

[336Robin]

...would produce a consistent 15-degree cut.

It looks like you’re hitting the shots hard enough and from close enough to take swerve out of the equation.

pj
chgo

There it is, a similarity exists.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Put the CB and OB a few inches apart and CTE give a different cut angle than when the separation is say 5 feet apart.

The aim line he describes (miscue limit to OB center) produces the same cut angle from any distance (assuming squirt/swerve cancel).

pj
chgo

 

[JC]

...would produce a consistent 15-degree cut.

It looks like you’re hitting the shots hard enough and from close enough to take swerve out of the equation.

pj
chgo

So squirt alone is accounting for the result? Sounds right but how does it know where center pocket is?

If it weren't for this shot I would have no faith whatever that CTE could do what it claims but because of how this works I'm not so sure.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...how does it know where center pocket is?

Of course it's your subconscious that knows - the same reason CTE users believe their system is "objective". (Pro tip: it's called "subconscious" because we're not consciously aware of it.)

If you did this on a surface without pockets or rails to guide your subconscious adjustments every shot would be the same cut angle.

P.S. Watch your video keeping an eye out for the angle of cue follow through on each shot - notice any differences?

pj
chgo

 

[336Robin]

So squirt alone is accounting for the result? Sounds right but how does it know where center pocket is?

If it weren't for this shot I would have no faith whatever that CTE could do what it claims but because of how this works I'm not so sure.

JC,
Ive had plenty of shots or same type approaches that work at a distance and then when variations occur they start to break down.

If it works for you at the distance and speed you need, then use it. The more you use it the better you'll understand it.

 

[JC]

Of course it's your subconscious that knows - the same reason CTE users believe their system is "objective". (Pro tip: it's called "subconscious" because we're not consciously aware of it.)

If you did this on a surface without pockets or rails to guide your subconscious adjustments every shot would be the same cut angle.

P.S. Watch your video keeping an eye out for the angle of cue follow through on each shot - notice any differences?

pj
chgo

The first shot in the video I consciously told myself not to let my cue stick fly, after that my bad habit just took over.

 

[cookie man]

In case what I've been talking about sounds like nonsense here is a demonstration. Every single shot aiming through the cue ball edge to the center of the object ball. Never looked at the pocket these would have gone in through a curtain.

You would have fun learning the 90/90 pivot system for aiming. Sort of the same principle as to what you are doing. You can use 90/90 without pivoting for extreme inside english. Lots of fun hitting racks of balls this way when you are bored.

 

[JC]

You would have fun learning the 90/90 pivot system for aiming. Sort of the same principle as to what you are doing. You can use 90/90 without pivoting for extreme inside english. Lots of fun hitting racks of balls this way when you are bored.

Back hand English which I use a lot is essentially the same principal. You aim the shot and when you pivot your rear hand the aim line is close to center ball. Paul Potier taught me that and it's a very nice way to use inside for those of us who have trouble visualizing that shot line from standing up.

You're right about shooting racks different ways for boredom. Just yesterday after I made the video I broke and shot some 8 ball racks trying to use that exact shot on every ball until I couldn't maintain an adequate angle and stalled out.

Other times I wipe the chalk off of my tip and play racks to practice center ball positioning.

 

[Dan White]

I mean the pivot point and stroke speed for your shaft whatever it may be where swerve and squirt cancel each other.

I am not putting you on in the slightest. The parameters are exactly as described. And right into the pocket she goes. I could make a video with curtains showing this. I almost could not believe it when Robin showed this to me. I have shown it to some local players who have the same results.

Let's get on the same page in terminology before trying to tackle what is happening. Dr. Dave's discussion about the cue's pivot point has nothing to do with swerve. Swerve happens when a downward force is exerted on the cue ball, which happens on most shots. This swerve, for softer shots, will bring the squirted cue ball back to the original line to some degree. Squirt is the effect where the cue shaft pushes the cue ball to the left or right depending on the english applied. It is a characteristic of the shaft itself, called deflection. The only way to counteract the sideways pushing of the cue ball from the shaft is to point the cue in a direction opposite of the squirt. So if the cb wants to squirt left from right english then you have to point or pivot the shaft more to the right. Now you are actually aiming the cb to the right of where you want it to go with the understanding that squirt will put the cb on that line. The longer the pivot point (your bridge hand) the less correction you are making. A short pivot point means you are making a large correction in the direction you are sending the cue ball so are expecting a lot of squirt.

So, having said that, swerve is not part of the issue here because all the shots are hit hard.

I set up a cut shot like you showed and I applied max inside english (right english) and aimed the shaft straight at center ob at the same time. This is equivalent to parallel english. By not pivoting like with BHE (back hand english), none of the squirt is balanced and we get full cb squirt. This pocketed the ball when at a medium angle similar to your video. When I set up a straight in shot and did the same thing with right english again, the cue ball squirted just the same and missed the pocket to the right.

Alternatively, I set up a straight in shot and pivoted BHE with max english. I aligned everything as a straight in shot, but then pivoted the shaft away as you need to with BHE. The ob went straight in because I was near the cue's natural pivot point. Then I set up a cut shot like I did the first time. The ob went straight into the side cushion because I was still using my cue's pivot point and we know this will send the ob straight.

I think you had a good thought about this being similar to the CTE concept. You are making it work while I cannot. mohrt makes his shots work while cannot.

Can you play around with the same shots being very careful about whether you are using BHE or parallel english or some combination and tell us what happened?

 

[JC]

Can you play around with the same shots being very careful about whether you are using BHE or parallel english or some combination and tell us what happened?

For sure not using back hand english as this is also something I do fairly well. This is just setting up as I said with max inside and stroking at the white reflection of the cue ball on the object ball. The range of angles is fairly narrow from 30 degrees each direction. But there are a shit ton of shots that come up in games that fall in there.

I am not aiming per se because I do not take pocket position into account at all as long as it's in the range of workable angle. 100% of my focus in on the cue ball and object ball.