Why does this work?

[CocoboloCowboy]

Here is the deal, sometime thing do not make sense, if you do the shot, and it works everytime.

When you execute same, just accept results. It works.

I use devices everyday, I don’t not know how they work. Simple pencil is example. Do not know how they the manufacturer the pencil, what machines, all I care about is if sharp it writes.

 

[Dan White]

For sure not using back hand english as this is also something I do fairly well. This is just setting up as I said with max inside and stroking at the white reflection of the cue ball on the object ball. The range of angles is fairly narrow from 30 degrees each direction. But there are a shit ton of shots that come up in games that fall in there.

I am not aiming per se because I do not take pocket position into account at all as long as it's in the range of workable angle. 100% of my focus in on the cue ball and object ball.

So you are using 100% parallel english? Example: Aim a straight in shot center to center with cue at center cb. Now shift the entire cue to the right to max english. If you do this and stroke straight through with the cue now aiming at the right side of the ob then it is impossible for the ob to go in the pocket due to squirt. What happens when you do this?

 

[LAMas]

The aim line he describes (miscue limit to OB center) produces the same cut angle from any distance (assuming squirt/swerve cancel).

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:
Only if you move the CB on the center-to-center line. .....

pj
chgo

Thanks. The CBs are on the same center-to-center line.

 

[336Robin]

For sure not using back hand english as this is also something I do fairly well. This is just setting up as I said with max inside and stroking at the white reflection of the cue ball on the object ball. The range of angles is fairly narrow from 30 degrees each direction. But there are a shit ton of shots that come up in games that fall in there.

I am not aiming per se because I do not take pocket position into account at all as long as it's in the range of workable angle. 100% of my focus in on the cue ball and object ball.

These shot you're making. How far is the cue ball from the object ball in diamond distances?

Ex. There will be approximately 2 diamond distances from the tip of your cue to the lacquer in your shaft give or take a inch or two.

3 diamonds goes past the joint into the forearm. 4 to the middle of the wrap.

 

[sixpack]

I spent a weekend with Robin Dreyer a couple of years ago and he showed me a shot and for the life of me I don't understand why it works but it does.

Any shot from anywhere that is half ball or less. Maximum inside english with a stroke speed and bridge length where the squirt and the throw cancel each other. We all understand what that sweet spot is right? Dr. Dave shows finding this spot in a video where you shoot maximum english straight in and the cue ball spins in place.

No regard whatsoever with the pocket. Don't even need to look at it. Aim your cue at exact center of the object ball and execute the correct stroke and the ball will split the pocket. As an added bonus if your balls are clean, the lighting good and the cue ball is within about 18 inches of the object ball you will see a white dot reflection of the cue ball at exact center object ball to aim at.

The shot breaks down at steeper angles and with very close or far distance between the balls but it has a very usable range once you learn it and don't try it outside of it's limits. This shot is not an aiming system but it's pretty cool and has many real world uses when you need to move the cue ball around. It's also good for shooting thin into the side pocket because the spin transmitted to the object ball sucks it into the pocket off the far pocket facing.

I believe there is some correlation between what happens on this shot and the CTE aiming system but can't quite put the pieces together in my mind. All I know is it really works and with practice it works very well. I just don't know why it works.

Any thoughts?

Mostly because of throw.

You are offsetting two errors (squirt and aim). You are hitting the shot thick and squirting the CB to a thinner hit. When you add throw into the mix it is a subtle variable that varies with shot angle and spin on the CB.

Throw changes with the angle of the contact with the CB. Cut Induced Throw (CIT) and Spin Induced Throw (SIT) work together in this case - both thickening the angle. And the closer to straight in the shot, the more SIT affects it. While CIT throw is more complicated it maxes out at a shot angle of 33.7 degrees.

So in essence, if you hit a straight in shot at medium speed, the deflection kicks the CB ball left (for example) which, on its own would cause the CB to miss right, but the combined effects CIT and SIT throw the OB so it goes in the pocket. CIT is 0 for a straight in shot and SIT is maximum. Given the right conditions that can be 5 degrees of throw.

As the angle of the shot increases, the CIT effect increases and the SIT effect decreases. If the speed is correct they will offset the deflection from applying the English.

There is a sweet spot of cut angles that this will work. As you noted, probably from straight in up to around 30 degrees.

Speed, both spin speed and shot speed both affect throw as well. If you use this method when shooting inordinately slowly or hard, you will likely miss when you aren't expecting it.

I think there are subconscious adjustments that you make as well. Such as varying speed to increase or decrease throw and adjusting how parallel to the shot line your cue is to adjust squirt.

 

[JC]

Mostly because of throw.

You are offsetting two errors (squirt and aim). You are hitting the shot thick and squirting the CB to a thinner hit. When you add throw into the mix it is a subtle variable that varies with shot angle and spin on the CB.

Throw changes with the angle of the contact with the CB. Cut Induced Throw (CIT) and Spin Induced Throw (SIT) work together in this case - both thickening the angle. And the closer to straight in the shot, the more SIT affects it. While CIT throw is more complicated it maxes out at a shot angle of 33.7 degrees.

So in essence, if you hit a straight in shot at medium speed, the deflection kicks the CB ball left (for example) which, on its own would cause the CB to miss right, but the combined effects CIT and SIT throw the OB so it goes in the pocket. CIT is 0 for a straight in shot and SIT is maximum. Given the right conditions that can be 5 degrees of throw.

As the angle of the shot increases, the CIT effect increases and the SIT effect decreases. If the speed is correct they will offset the deflection from applying the English.

There is a sweet spot of cut angles that this will work. As you noted, probably from straight in up to around 30 degrees.

Speed, both spin speed and shot speed both affect throw as well. If you use this method when shooting inordinately slowly or hard, you will likely miss when you aren't expecting it.

I think there are subconscious adjustments that you make as well. Such as varying speed to increase or decrease throw and adjusting how parallel to the shot line your cue is to adjust squirt.

I think you've analyzed it properly. I have shot this a lot since it was shown to me so there is of course subconscious things going on from memory as in all pool. To answer Robin's question the shot also breaks down after about 2.5 diamonds of distance between the balls along with angle.

I think for fun I will set up a curtain and try this one.

 

[JC]

I had a buddy come over and I showed this to him and he had bad results shooting it.

Then we played a couple of hours and every time I had a chance to shoot the shot I told him "Here's the shot" and I never missed a single one. Center pocket magic baby! At least 8 times.

So after he left I set up a curtain and shot a bunch of them. My potting rate was about 50% for the same shots. Not that great.

My conclusion?

The human mind is an amazing thing when it comes to pool. Things are going on we are not even remotely aware of when aiming pool shots.

Shooting balls into pockets although not possible to be 100% objective is still pretty cool with all the variables that exist.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I had a buddy come over and I showed this to him and he had bad results shooting it.

Then we played a couple of hours and every time I had a chance to shoot the shot I told him "Here's the shot" and I never missed a single one. Center pocket magic baby! At least 8 times.

So after he left I set up a curtain and shot a bunch of them. My potting rate was about 50% for the same shots. Not that great.

My conclusion?

The human mind is an amazing thing when it comes to pool. Things are going on we are not even remotely aware of when aiming pool shots.

Shooting balls into pockets although not possible to be 100% objective is still pretty cool with all the variables that exist.

Your mind's eye and memory bank are definitely telling you how to stroke the shots to make them .
If you increase the distance, I bet you will instinctively shoot softer to negate some of the squirt or angle the tip so that the outside part bites the cue ball a little more so it spins and throws more.

 

[JC]

Your mind's eye and memory bank are definitely telling you how to stroke the shots to make them .
If you increase the distance, I bet you will instinctively shoot softer to negate some of the squirt or angle the tip so that the outside part bites the cue ball a little more so it spins and throws more.

What's weird is consciously I truly believed that I was in complete control of how I was aiming but further more scientific testing showed clearly otherwise. I make these shots aiming "very close" to the center of the object ball but not exactly as I believed. And I'm really quite consistent with them.

 

[Dan White]

What's weird is consciously I truly believed that I was in complete control of how I was aiming but further more scientific testing showed clearly otherwise. I make these shots aiming "very close" to the center of the object ball but not exactly as I believed. And I'm really quite consistent with them.

I hope mohrt Is reading this thread and considers what you are saying while he tries to figure out why CTE works for him the way it does.

 

[The_JV]

The human mind is an amazing thing when it comes to pool. Things are going on we are not even remotely aware of when aiming pool shots.

Yesterday while swinging at some balls I became frustrated and really put zero effort into aiming. Just starting slapping at relatively easy shots when way out of alignment. However during the shot, my arm would chicken wing either in or out and sure enough the bulk went in. No semblance of CB control, but the only intent was firing an OB in a general direction.

The point.... I had zero consicous control over the chicken wing. My mind just did it in an effort to correct what it knew wasn't going to work. We all have experienced this on some level, whether we realized it or not. I guess this is why some fixate on playing within "the zone". The point in which we let the calculator do the work without having to punch the keys.

 

[boogieman]

Yesterday while swinging at some balls I became frustrated and really put zero effort into aiming. Just starting slapping at relatively easy shots when way out of alignment. However during the shot, my arm would chicken wing either in or out and sure enough the bulk went in. No semblance of CB control, but the only intent was firing an OB in a general direction.

The point.... I had zero consicous control over the chicken wing. My mind just did it in an effort to correct what it knew wasn't going to work. We all have experienced this on some level, whether we realized it or not. I guess this is why some fixate on playing within "the zone". The point in which we let the calculator do the work without having to punch the keys.

If I get "in the zone" the chicken wing starts squaking and puts the balls in. I don't like it at all(the wing), so I aim while up to make sure I'm down on the shot line. The chicken wing doesn't miss much, but it can quickly lead to lazy habits. Surprisingly chicken wing works well, but it doesn't work very well for thin cuts, at least not as well as being on the shot line.

I knew an older fellow who's form looked terrible, bad chicken wings, off line all the time, no consistent stance, but he made dang near everything he shot at.

 

[BC21]

So you are using 100% parallel english? Example: Aim a straight in shot center to center with cue at center cb. Now shift the entire cue to the right to max english. If you do this and stroke straight through with the cue now aiming at the right side of the ob then it is impossible for the ob to go in the pocket due to squirt. What happens when you do this?

Depending on the distance between balls, and the distance between ob and pocket, and whether or not you're using a LD shaft, the ob just might go into the pocket. The cb will still squirt to the left, but it'll swerve back some.

 

[sixpack]

Depending on the distance between balls, and the distance between ob and pocket, and whether or not you're using a LD shaft, the ob just might go into the pocket. The cb will still squirt to the left, but it'll swerve back some.

The maximum English with throw the OB back left. Depending on speed and how much you think maximum English is, this can also help the OB go in.

 

[LAMas]

With a solid hit on the CB to cut the OB, the OB will slide over the felt before it starts to roll toward the target - resulting in a slight over cut.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

With a solid hit on the CB to cut the OB, the OB will slide over the felt before it starts to roll toward the target - resulting in a slight over cut.

I don’t follow - why would that result in a slight overcut?

pj
chgo

 

[Dan White]

Depending on the distance between balls, and the distance between ob and pocket, and whether or not you're using a LD shaft, the ob just might go into the pocket. The cb will still squirt to the left, but it'll swerve back some.

Yes but I was more referring to the shots in his video which are rather short and firmly struck. It seems he has solved the mystery. I'd call it a placebo effect but apparently that gets your posts removed. Calling people a liar and narcissistic is OK around here, though. lol.

 

[straightline]

I don’t follow - why would that result in a slight overcut?

pj
chgo

Personal stroke error prolly.

Yes but I was more referring to the shots in his video which are rather short and firmly struck. It seems he has solved the mystery. I'd call it a placebo effect but apparently that gets your posts removed. Calling people a liar and narcissistic is OK around here, though. lol.

the last shot @ 2:15
Babies it.

 

[Dan White]

the last shot @ 2:15
Babies it.

Let's keep this in context. If you line up maximum parallel english and do not make any other adjustments you can expect to miss the shot.

 

[sixpack]

I had a buddy come over and I showed this to him and he had bad results shooting it.

Then we played a couple of hours and every time I had a chance to shoot the shot I told him "Here's the shot" and I never missed a single one. Center pocket magic baby! At least 8 times.

So after he left I set up a curtain and shot a bunch of them. My potting rate was about 50% for the same shots. Not that great.

My conclusion?

The human mind is an amazing thing when it comes to pool. Things are going on we are not even remotely aware of when aiming pool shots.

Shooting balls into pockets although not possible to be 100% objective is still pretty cool with all the variables that exist.

I just watched the video again and there is something I missed. You are not aiming center CB to center OB, you are aiming the cue stick at center OB correct?

That is very close to my inside English system. It works well. The mechanism is the same as I described above but it works better than aiming center CB to OB.

My system uses the inside edge of the cue to aim through CCB to CP on OB. To make with inside shoot there or adjust to as much inside as you want (within reason) or pivot back to center to use no English.

Then, if you want to use outside adjust using BHE from there.

The problem is the pivot. If I naturally pivot without examining my pivot it works fine. If I try to pivot around a point on the cue stick it doesn't work well at all.

Basically the longer the shot the longer the pivot point to make the shot. And the smaller the actual pivot. This is because the longer shot the CP is closer to C OB.