why doesnt anyone take a chance anymore?

Money games are fine if you bet something you can afford to lose. Kind of like a tournament against one player but with no trophies...
Maybe tournaments offer better test for your mental game than small money games because you can't afford to lose two short sets there...you're out if you do.

Of course playing for something you cannot afford to lose would offer most exposure to pressure. I wonder how many top pros today play big money games without financial backer support?
 
trustyrusty said:
Again, the assumption of fear....

Tell you what, if I'm ever around your way, I'll play you a race to 9 and I'll give you 5 freakin bucks up front. Or would that just kill your incentive to win? I don't need your 5 bucks, and you probably don't need mine, but if you need it for focus...so be it. We can play. Better?:rolleyes:


yes much better thanks :D
 
trustyrusty said:
Hu,

I played baseball most of my life, from 6 years old until I was 23. I never once needed monetary incentive to want to play my best. That is pretty much the only point I was trying to make. In college I played at a pretty high level, and I even played some after (not enough to brag about - but I was paid to play). After that, I needed something to fill the void, so to speak, in competitive terms, and I got hooked on golf...still can't get enough competition...LOL

Now, if I had to make a living at playing pool; it'd be a whole different story. I know the pros don't make a ton of money in this sport, so they play money games. I don't have a problem with it at all. But telling me that I have to play for money to get better or to want to win, is just someone who doesn't know me. Thanks for your post...:D
Sorry Rusty you've gone over the line now! Are you saying you play BOTH
Pool and Golf without wagering? I'm sorry but I have to turn you into the
authorities. That is not only illegal it is also a crime against humanity!!!!!!
 
joshmfhamlin1 said:
I hate going to the pool room now because there are not enough people who will just get up and play at any given moment. its like pulling teeth to try to get a game. so many spots and nitty people are killing the action of pool. i play poker now because i dont have to match up with anyone or spot anyone. i will play anyone in the world at pool as long as the game is somewhat fair. if i win, i win, if i lose, **** it. i just wish people would get up and gamble sometimes. i have been in a lot of 'bad games' in my life that i have outrun the nuts. it seems like there are not a lot of people who have the heart to get up and play anymore. im just talking about the average players, not the world beaters. but i will play them too if i can make a game.
JOSH, GOOD THING I LOST THAT PICTURE OF YOU ROBBING THAT 13 YEAR OLD KID OUT OF HIS LUNCH MONEY!!! LOL :D
REMEMBER THAT???????
THOSE WERE SOME GOOD TIMES AT BK BILLIARDS (ANOTHER POOLHALL IN CINCY THAT IS NOW CLOSED)
 
SJDinPHX said:
Sorry Rusty you've gone over the line now! Are you saying you play BOTH
Pool and Golf without wagering? I'm sorry but I have to turn you into the
authorities. That is not only illegal it is also a crime against humanity!!!!!!

No, I mentioned that I play a money game on Saturdays and Sundays playing golf. It's not a one on one thing, it's just a group of 16 throwing a 20 spot into a pot, and it's broken down between skins, greenies, and team game (best two balls per hole per foursome). It's ok with me because I like the group I play with, but there are a couple in that group who hafta play for something too....They also run to a bookie every Friday throughout the fall and winter to put money down on college and pro football games. I'm sure that if I really cared and kept a spreadsheet of it, I would see that I come out well ahead for the year. I'd be willing to give back any winnings to have the lowest round in the group every week though. I shot my lowest round ever on one particular course last year (68), but didn't even have the lowest round in the group that day. 5 birdies, all but one tied off, and 2 of my shots at greenie (I was in the 2nd group of 4) where beaten also (oh, and my foursome was beat out by one stroke in the team game). What bugged me about it? Wasn't the money....it was the 67 that got me :D I shot a 70 to his 74 the next day though, and all was right with the world ;)
 
SJDinPHX said:
Sorry Rusty you've gone over the line now! Are you saying you play BOTH
Pool and Golf without wagering? I'm sorry but I have to turn you into the
authorities. That is not only illegal it is also a crime against humanity!!!!!!


LOL...

The amount of money wagered playing Golf on a daily basis is huge.
I don't think I have ever met someone who plays pool and golf and won't put some money up in the right situation.

You are right SJD, it would be out of the norm if Rusty doesn't play in some kind of money game. Although I will say he seems like a family man and if he doesn't gamble because of his family I totally respect that.
 
BPG24 said:
LOL...

The amount of money wagered playing Golf on a daily basis is huge.
I don't think I have ever met someone who plays pool and golf and won't put some money up in the right situation.

You are right SJD, it would be out of the norm if Rusty doesn't play in some kind of money game. Although I will say he seems like a family man and if he doesn't gamble because of his family I totally respect that.

It is kinda because of family, but probably not in the way you think....My family has a LONG history of addiction problems, so I, being uber-competitive and all know, that if you fall into a habit, whatever it is, and however small, that it is easy to gradually let it grow until it consumes you (each step along the way telling yourself, oh, it's only a little, or big deal it's just a little more, etc.). I was for the most part in this thread just stating that contrary to what seems to be popular belief, that you don't have to bet on something to either make it more worthwhile, or use it to motivate yourself to improve, concentrate, and win....;)
 
trustyrusty said:
I was for the most part in this thread just stating that contrary to what seems to be popular belief, that you don't have to bet on something to either make it more worthwhile, or use it to motivate yourself to improve, concentrate, and win....;)

Again, it all depends on how you learned to play. Did you ever gamble? And again, I don't know many good players who don't or at least did, at one time in their career, gamble. I respect your reasons for not gambling, but it's a stretch in my opinion, to say that it's contrary to popular belief. It may be for some, but by no means all. I think most serious players gamble.
 
Pushout said:
Again, it all depends on how you learned to play. Did you ever gamble? And again, I don't know many good players who don't or at least did, at one time in their career, gamble. I respect your reasons for not gambling, but it's a stretch in my opinion, to say that it's contrary to popular belief. It may be for some, but by no means all. I think most serious players gamble.

Do the serious players gamble to make themselves better, or gamble because they need the money, or because they like to gamble? I don't dispute that most "serious" players gamble. I'm saying it is not NEEDED to improve. Michael Jordan gambles BIG on golf, and I've seen him play...he's not very good. He doesn't need the money, and I don't think it's going to help him improve....he just likes to gamble (that, and it doesn't matter what he loses since he made $100mil a year). I'm sure if you were buddies with Jordan, and you played ping-pong with him he'd want action on it. Some people just want to for no other reason than the gamble I guess.....?

I've gambled for fun a ton of times. Others in this thread assumed that I just started playing pool. In true competitive terms that's true (tourneys etc.), but I've played since a kid (grandpa's 9 footer from age 6 thru high school). We (teammates and I) had a barbox in college at our house, and I have a table at my house now. I've made stupid bets here and there for fun - lost my motorcycle for a week in college :D , but most of the time it was to appease others....didn't make me magically focus more, or bare down, or choke. I wanted to win with nothing on the line.
 
softshot said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j2DHUw8SZg

A tune for the gamblers, from me to you.

I could listen to Seether's music. Nice lyrics and tune.

I like to gamble, play in tournaments and practice competitively. I find each has their own attraction. Many gamblers will tell you that you have to gamble in order to learn how to handle the pressure of playing at your best. They will say that the pressure felt under gambling is tougher than other forms of pressure. The gamblers will say that gambling toughens you as a competitor. When your hard earned cash is on the line, you will be double-tough because you will pay attention. They are partially right. Gambling is unique in the pressure you feel. The exhilaration felt while gambling is different than the exhilaration felt when competing in tournaments. Some will say it is a higher exhilaration but I think it is just different and maybe it is a mindful thing rather than a physical thing. Something like hunting must have seemed to the real hunters of ancient times where they pitted their skills against animals for the right to survive.

Competing in tournaments can yield another specialized type of exhilaration and again I think it is a mindful thing rather than a physical thing. The tournament arena is the place where the best exhilaration can be felt in my opinion. It is where you are surrounded by MANY other athletes and competitors with winning on their mind. It is the numbers that make the difference with the way you perceive the competition in tournament play. It is a superior way to compete in my opinion.

Gambling usually is usually done between two competitive individuals and I think it is easier to successfully do than it is for tournament competition again by the sheer lack of numbers. Also, some people possess the strength or weakness of (depends on how you look at it) being able to make the acquisition of the money paramount in their mind and so when they gamble, the possibility of losing money does not become a deterrent in their mind.

If two people of equal talent and ability gamble, one of them a tournament player and one of them a gambler, the gambler will most often win.

And in tournament competition the same but reverse is true. If both are of equal ability and one of the players is a gambler and the other is a tournament competitor, the tournament competitor will most often win.

The practicing competitor is just that and nothing more. If he does not subject himself to the pressures of competing with others in tournament play or in gambling he would fall apart almost every time in either of the types of competition. If he is of the same talent and ability, in a practice session, the practicing competitor will almost always win.

In order to be the best in any test of skill, you must expose yourself to the individual pressures found within each test of skill.

I think tournament competition is far greater than gambling competition or practicing competition but it is only because of the numbers.

The practicing competition is good but it does not compare to the two other forms of competition. The practicing competitor who only plays for fun and never enters tournaments and never gambles is cheating himself or herself of the individual rewards in the other forms of competition which are unique unto themselves.

The "reward" for accomplishment in each test of skill is special to that form of competition and they are all good.

The greatest "feat" is to face many other competitors in tournament play under various circumstances and with limited barrels; to overcome. The numbers of competitors, the differences between each player and the limitation of barrels makes tournament competition the greatest challenge of all.

JoeyA
 
joshmfhamlin1 said:
I hate going to the pool room now because there are not enough people who will just get up and play at any given moment. its like pulling teeth to try to get a game. so many spots and nitty people are killing the action of pool. i play poker now because i dont have to match up with anyone or spot anyone. i will play anyone in the world at pool as long as the game is somewhat fair. if i win, i win, if i lose, **** it. i just wish people would get up and gamble sometimes. i have been in a lot of 'bad games' in my life that i have outrun the nuts. it seems like there are not a lot of people who have the heart to get up and play anymore. im just talking about the average players, not the world beaters. but i will play them too if i can make a game.
I love the game of pool!!!! I can play for free or I can bet whatever! doesn,t make any dif to me! We get road players in here from time to time and they all get played!! Might not have a chance, but they get played!! Just my 2 cents. Play because you love the game!!!!! Not to make money at it!!

http://www.gcbilliardclub.com
 
Gambling supposedly increases performance pressure, thus creating a superior test to hone your game. One may beg to differ.:D

The game is a test of table management, nerves, heart, and mechanical skill.

The better player will be better able to focus on the process rather than the result.

The better player will know where the cue ball and object ball are going.

The better player will not be deluded about the extent to which equipment can help his game.

The better player will spend enough time developing sound fundamentals and a solid stroke.
 
Because they HAVE to...not necessarily because they WANT to! Two different things, imo. They unfortunately have no choice, if they want to play pool for a living...if you can call it a living. 99% of them sure don't make the kind of money I do from pool...and that's sad, because it's out there.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Pushout said:
I think most serious players gamble.
 
I'm with the group who thinks that playing for stakes doesn't necessarily improve your "pressure" game, unless those stakes are actually meaningful, like rent and food money.

I've played for money and like to, but personally, I would rather play well and lose than play badly and win. If I dog it but manage to squeak out a 50 dollar win, I would still be disappointed in myself. The money is immaterial, it's about the strength of my performance.

For the action guys, it's not about pool, no matter how you spin it. It's about the rush with something on the line. Finding yourself competing in a relatively unpredictable game that a handicap creates. And that's totally cool. Personally, I ask for no spots, even if I know my opponent is better than me, and I'm the type to give up too much weight to see if I can outrun it. The money is just a side effect of competition, not the creation of it.

Gambling and the game aren't the same things.
 
an addition

Joey,

Everything you say is spot on except for one thing, something it took me many years around competition to learn Some people don't enjoy competition. Actually quite a few people don't. That is why when people look at 250 unique customers in a pool hall and feel like they should be able to get them all into some form of competition, league or cash tournaments, they are flat wrong. When you talk to someone and learn that they have never competed before in any meaningful way, odds are that they do not enjoy competition and deliberately or even subconsciously avoid it in their lives.

There seems to be three groups:
Maybe thirty percent that can't be talked into competing any way you try.
Fifty percent that will compete but don't really get excited about it.
Twenty percent that live to compete, maybe half that many.

These numbers are a wild guess but I think the theory of the three groups will be upheld with a little taking of surveys in pool rooms, shooting ranges, and other places where you can participate in an activity with or without competing.

Hu


JoeyA said:
I could listen to Seether's music. Nice lyrics and tune.

I like to gamble, play in tournaments and practice competitively. I find each has their own attraction. Many gamblers will tell you that you have to gamble in order to learn how to handle the pressure of playing at your best. They will say that the pressure felt under gambling is tougher than other forms of pressure. The gamblers will say that gambling toughens you as a competitor. When your hard earned cash is on the line, you will be double-tough because you will pay attention. They are partially right. Gambling is unique in the pressure you feel. The exhilaration felt while gambling is different than the exhilaration felt when competing in tournaments. Some will say it is a higher exhilaration but I think it is just different and maybe it is a mindful thing rather than a physical thing. Something like hunting must have seemed to the real hunters of ancient times where they pitted their skills against animals for the right to survive.

Competing in tournaments can yield another specialized type of exhilaration and again I think it is a mindful thing rather than a physical thing. The tournament arena is the place where the best exhilaration can be felt in my opinion. It is where you are surrounded by MANY other athletes and competitors with winning on their mind. It is the numbers that make the difference with the way you perceive the competition in tournament play. It is a superior way to compete in my opinion.

Gambling usually is usually done between two competitive individuals and I think it is easier to successfully do than it is for tournament competition again by the sheer lack of numbers. Also, some people possess the strength or weakness of (depends on how you look at it) being able to make the acquisition of the money paramount in their mind and so when they gamble, the possibility of losing money does not become a deterrent in their mind.

If two people of equal talent and ability gamble, one of them a tournament player and one of them a gambler, the gambler will most often win.

And in tournament competition the same but reverse is true. If both are of equal ability and one of the players is a gambler and the other is a tournament competitor, the tournament competitor will most often win.

The practicing competitor is just that and nothing more. If he does not subject himself to the pressures of competing with others in tournament play or in gambling he would fall apart almost every time in either of the types of competition. If he is of the same talent and ability, in a practice session, the practicing competitor will almost always win.

In order to be the best in any test of skill, you must expose yourself to the individual pressures found within each test of skill.

I think tournament competition is far greater than gambling competition or practicing competition but it is only because of the numbers.

The practicing competition is good but it does not compare to the two other forms of competition. The practicing competitor who only plays for fun and never enters tournaments and never gambles is cheating himself or herself of the individual rewards in the other forms of competition which are unique unto themselves.

The "reward" for accomplishment in each test of skill is special to that form of competition and they are all good.

The greatest "feat" is to face many other competitors in tournament play under various circumstances and with limited barrels; to overcome. The numbers of competitors, the differences between each player and the limitation of barrels makes tournament competition the greatest challenge of all.

JoeyA
 
ShootingArts said:
Joey,



There seems to be three groups:
Maybe thirty percent that can't be talked into competing any way you try.
Fifty percent that will compete but don't really get excited about it.
Twenty percent that live to compete, maybe half that many.

These numbers are a wild guess but I think the theory of the three groups will be upheld with a little taking of surveys in pool rooms, shooting ranges, and other places where you can participate in an activity with or without competing.

Hu

That's probably a pretty good guess at the numbers. I would guess the middle # a bit higher taking away equally from the "won'ts" and the "live tos" though.

I was listening to sports talk radio today (ha, what's new :p ), and listened to a couple of NFL players being interviewed in Pheonix (they were there, but not on the Pats or Giants). Both of the players were asked about their respective teams, and and what it would mean to them (the players) to make it to the Superbowl. Both were pretty convincing in saying that they could have a great career, make lotsa money, etc. etc. etc., but they would be ultimately disappointed (or their career would seem incomplete) if they never won a Superbowl. Sure, there are some spoiled, pampered, self-serving athletes out there that are all about the $$$MONEY$$$, but I'd guess a majority of athletes wanna win the BIG ONE (and would probably trade in alot of that $ and fame to have done it).

All Tiger ever talks about is Jack's 18 majors....and other records (the few he hasn't gotten yet) of course. He doesn't get anything extra for breaking records. And, if you think he wants to win everytime he tees it up just for the paycheck, you are dead wrong. :D
 
right you are

Rusty,

When you look at what a tiny percentage of college players make it in the NFL you realize that these guys were almost all stars at lower levels even the ones we think are lunkheads. Regardless of how they express themselves you don't get to that level without a love of competition and a desire to be the best. The Superbowl is the world championship and without nailing it you can't make the same claim of greatness.

Look at this year's Patriots. The longest single season winning run in history I believe but if they lose the bowl, which I don't think is impossible, they will always be remembered as the greatest team that didn't win the Superbowl. Win the bowl and they are immortals, lose and they had a great year but . . . forevermore.

Hu


trustyrusty said:
That's probably a pretty good guess at the numbers. I would guess the middle # a bit higher taking away equally from the "won'ts" and the "live tos" though.

I was listening to sports talk radio today (ha, what's new :p ), and listened to a couple of NFL players being interviewed in Pheonix (they were there, but not on the Pats or Giants). Both of the players were asked about their respective teams, and and what it would mean to them (the players) to make it to the Superbowl. Both were pretty convincing in saying that they could have a great career, make lotsa money, etc. etc. etc., but they would be ultimately disappointed (or their career would seem incomplete) if they never won a Superbowl. Sure, there are some spoiled, pampered, self-serving athletes out there that are all about the $$$MONEY$$$, but I'd guess a majority of athletes wanna win the BIG ONE (and would probably trade in alot of that $ and fame to have done it).

All Tiger ever talks about is Jack's 18 majors....and other records (the few he hasn't gotten yet) of course. He doesn't get anything extra for breaking records. And, if you think he wants to win everytime he tees it up just for the paycheck, you are dead wrong. :D
 
JoeyA said:
I could listen to Seether's music. Nice lyrics and tune.

I like to gamble, play in tournaments and practice competitively. I find each has their own attraction. Many gamblers will tell you that you have to gamble in order to learn how to handle the pressure of playing at your best. They will say that the pressure felt under gambling is tougher than other forms of pressure. The gamblers will say that gambling toughens you as a competitor. When your hard earned cash is on the line, you will be double-tough because you will pay attention. They are partially right. Gambling is unique in the pressure you feel. The exhilaration felt while gambling is different than the exhilaration felt when competing in tournaments. Some will say it is a higher exhilaration but I think it is just different and maybe it is a mindful thing rather than a physical thing. Something like hunting must have seemed to the real hunters of ancient times where they pitted their skills against animals for the right to survive.

Competing in tournaments can yield another specialized type of exhilaration and again I think it is a mindful thing rather than a physical thing. The tournament arena is the place where the best exhilaration can be felt in my opinion. It is where you are surrounded by MANY other athletes and competitors with winning on their mind. It is the numbers that make the difference with the way you perceive the competition in tournament play. It is a superior way to compete in my opinion.

Gambling usually is usually done between two competitive individuals and I think it is easier to successfully do than it is for tournament competition again by the sheer lack of numbers. Also, some people possess the strength or weakness of (depends on how you look at it) being able to make the acquisition of the money paramount in their mind and so when they gamble, the possibility of losing money does not become a deterrent in their mind.

If two people of equal talent and ability gamble, one of them a tournament player and one of them a gambler, the gambler will most often win.

And in tournament competition the same but reverse is true. If both are of equal ability and one of the players is a gambler and the other is a tournament competitor, the tournament competitor will most often win.

The practicing competitor is just that and nothing more. If he does not subject himself to the pressures of competing with others in tournament play or in gambling he would fall apart almost every time in either of the types of competition. If he is of the same talent and ability, in a practice session, the practicing competitor will almost always win.

In order to be the best in any test of skill, you must expose yourself to the individual pressures found within each test of skill.

I think tournament competition is far greater than gambling competition or practicing competition but it is only because of the numbers.

The practicing competition is good but it does not compare to the two other forms of competition. The practicing competitor who only plays for fun and never enters tournaments and never gambles is cheating himself or herself of the individual rewards in the other forms of competition which are unique unto themselves.

The "reward" for accomplishment in each test of skill is special to that form of competition and they are all good.

The greatest "feat" is to face many other competitors in tournament play under various circumstances and with limited barrels; to overcome. The numbers of competitors, the differences between each player and the limitation of barrels makes tournament competition the greatest challenge of all.

JoeyA

I agree that competitive competent people will perform well under most circumstances. I also agree that you cannot be really good at pool unless you can come with the shots under pressure.

I don't have a problem with gambling I have even done it on rare occasion.

My problem is with matching up... taking sometimes hours, who is the better shot? who beat who when?.. well he beat Jim and I never beat Jim so he must be better than me blah blah blah.

It's the bullsh*t that I don't like. hiding your speed, playing bad on purpose, tricking weak players into betting more than they can afford

If you took most gamblers at face value when matching up and everything they said was true they all apperantly can't run 2 ball's, except on their birthday.

but because I won't pony up money every time I walk to the table they look down on me and call me names, he obviously sucks because he won't match up. ect.

I can give most of these chumps the wild 2 and win but they have that arrogance and demeanor and criminal aire, (that I believe is the root cause of pools bad reputation) and the gall to tell me I am a weak player because I won't dicker for two hours to play a guy I can crush with my eyes closed.

That is the standard pool hall atmosphere and it bugs the crap out of me.
 
patrickcues said:
I love the game of pool!!!! I can play for free or I can bet whatever! doesn,t make any dif to me! We get road players in here from time to time and they all get played!! Might not have a chance, but they get played!! Just my 2 cents. Play because you love the game!!!!! Not to make money at it!!

http://www.gcbilliardclub.com

REP to you for putting the pool hall's name up there.
JoeyA
 
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