Why doesn't someone have this as a business?

D

derangedhermit

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I see rooms closing, or some storage unit clearout, with 6, 10, 20 or 30 GCs (or parts for same) for sale at least every month. Prices range from $300-$600 per table. Many of these are in rust-belt cities, but rooms close everywhere regularly. Anyway:

Why doesn't someone have a full-time business buying these tables, trucking them to a refurbishing facility with 4-6 people trained to rebuild GCs, and sell and install them where there is market demand? Cities like Atlanta, D/FW, Phoenix, etc. would seem to support such a business. You couldn't make money picking them up one at a time, but by the truckload...

I'm thinking $2000-$3000 for reconditioned GCs, depending on size, model, end condition, etc.. It's hard to imagine a better value in a pool table. I don't think there are enough used Diamond Pros or Pro-Ams to fill the demand, and I guess the "tournament-tested" ones have enough higher price to make a refurbed GC appealing.
 
My question is with Pool Rooms Closing, and NO NEW ROOM OPENING. Who is your buyers?

Believe it or not in the LAST 12 Months in the Phoenix Metro AREA over 100 Bars, Sports Bars, Pool Rooms, hae closed. This information was gleaned from TWO SOURCES that work in the Pool Inductry Daily. One a Billiards & Darts Supply Store Owner, and the other a Full Time Pool Table Installer, Repairman.
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
My question is with Pool Rooms Closing, and NO NEW ROOM OPENING. Who is your buyers?

Believe it or not in the LAST 12 Months in the Phoenix Metro AREA over 100 Bars, Sports Bars, Pool Rooms, hae closed. This information was gleaned from TWO SOURCES that work in the Pool Inductry Daily. One a Billiards & Darts Supply Store Owner, and the other a Full Time Pool Table Installer, Repairman.
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The pool rooms are closing so where do folks play?

At home is the answer. And that's who you sell them to, one at a time.

Seems like a viable idea to me. If I knew my ass from a hole in the ground about pool tables I'd be all over it.

Actually I think there's already guys doing this they just aren't boasting about it to avoid competition buying them. Guys who are members here in fact.

JC
 
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derangedhermit said:
I see rooms closing, or some storage unit clearout, with 6, 10, 20 or 30 GCs (or parts for same) for sale at least every month. Prices range from $300-$600 per table. Many of these are in rust-belt cities, but rooms close everywhere regularly. Anyway:

Why doesn't someone have a full-time business buying these tables, trucking them to a refurbishing facility with 4-6 people trained to rebuild GCs, and sell and install them where there is market demand? Cities like Atlanta, D/FW, Phoenix, etc. would seem to support such a business. You couldn't make money picking them up one at a time, but by the truckload...

I'm thinking $2000-$3000 for reconditioned GCs, depending on size, model, end condition, etc.. It's hard to imagine a better value in a pool table. I don't think there are enough used Diamond Pros or Pro-Ams to fill the demand, and I guess the "tournament-tested" ones have enough higher price to make a refurbed GC appealing.
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I have heard of a couple different guys doing just that.
 
ive often considered that same idea, because in chicagoland for example, there are dozens of tables changing hands constantly. it would probably work in a large metroplex
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
My question is with Pool Rooms Closing, and NO NEW ROOM OPENING. Who is your buyers?

Believe it or not in the LAST 12 Months in the Phoenix Metro AREA over 100 Bars, Sports Bars, Pool Rooms, hae closed. This information was gleaned from TWO SOURCES that work in the Pool Inductry Daily. One a Billiards & Darts Supply Store Owner, and the other a Full Time Pool Table Installer, Repairman.
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I haven't checked, maybe Phoenix got hit harder than D/FW in the real estate boom-bust of the last few years. But it will come back, if slowly. I'm told Atlanta wasn't hit so bad.

I would also look into the market to export some of the tables (GC I and II mainly) to the Philippines and maybe Korea and China.
 
metmot said:
The pool rooms are closing so where do folks play?

At home is the answer. And that's who you sell them to, one at a time.

Seems like a viable idea to me. If I knew my ass from a hole in the ground about pool tables I'd be all over it.

Actually I think there's already guys doing this they just aren't boasting about it to avoid competition buying them. Guys who are members here in fact.

JC
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I'm not sure the home market for 9' or 8' oversize is big enough. You'd need some of the pool room / sports bar market too.

You don't need to know about pool tables to do it. You need capital and business experience, and to hire two guys who knows about pool tables.

I don't think anyone here is doing it in the way I have in mind. I have not seen a single ad here or on ebay or D/FW craigslist that hints that someone is doing this systematically.
 
Mr. Bond said:
ive often considered that same idea, because in chicagoland for example, there are dozens of tables changing hands constantly. it would probably work in a large metroplex
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I think there are people doing it in one metroplex area. But I see, from the discussions in the room owners forum and in the buy/sell forum, big differences in supply, demand, and price of tables in different regions of the country. That presents a business opportunity for someone, I think. The cost of a rental truck, fuel, and a two-man team is maybe $1000 a trip. So you need maybe 10 tables to make a trip worthwhile.

What I don't know is if you can start with, say 100 GC tables from 5 pool rooms of varying vintage, average condition, cost delivered to one spot say $60000 ($600 per table). How many tables of good quality can result, and how much does it cost to get there? 75 finished tables, with $1000 of parts and labor in each table (another $75000) means you have $135,000 in 75 tables ready to sell, or $1800 per table cost. You'd have to sell them for more than $3000 apiece (+ cloth and installation) to make any money.

That sounds too high to me. More promising would be to have $500 in the table, delivered for refurb, and $500 in the refurb. Then $2000 becomes a reasonable sales price.

I just don't know if that cost level is possible with many 50 year old tables. You could count on refinishishing the legs, aprons, and sometimes rails. How often new rubber? How often rebuilt rails? The new rubber alone would put you over the $500 refurb number, wouldn't it?

That's why I'm asking in the Mechanic forum...Say you had a wood refinishing guy with a booth, and a rails and rubber guy, and a metal parts guy - machining, powder-coating, whatever. They cost you $120,000 a year. Can they turn out on average one refurbed GC a day? (Thirty a month, 360 a year?) That's $333 in labor per table, which works economically.

Maybe they can only do one every two days, maybe 2 a day - I have no idea. And what will new parts and supplies cost average?
 
Pool Table Refurb Business?

Derangedhermit,

You're making a mistake that is very common to persons who want to start up a new small business. All your initial figures and cost estimates are very skewed because you are thinking in terms of "best possible scenario".

Think instead, on worst case scenarios.

A really big ticket item you didn't mention is the cost for space for manufacturing, storage, administration, and retail operations. You would probably need five or six thousand square feet as an absolute minimum. Ten or fifteen thousand feet may be more realistic.

Then consider insurance and taxes. Utility bills, too. Legal fees. Advertising. The list is endless.

There's a ton of more business costs for an operation such as what you suggest. But, just the ones mentioned above will drive a table refurbishing operation into insolvency.

My apology for being so negative, but statistically, the vast majority of small businesses fail.

Joe
 
derangedhermit said:
I think there are people doing it in one metroplex area. But I see, from the discussions in the room owners forum and in the buy/sell forum, big differences in supply, demand, and price of tables in different regions of the country. That presents a business opportunity for someone, I think. The cost of a rental truck, fuel, and a two-man team is maybe $1000 a trip. So you need maybe 10 tables to make a trip worthwhile.

What I don't know is if you can start with, say 100 GC tables from 5 pool rooms of varying vintage, average condition, cost delivered to one spot say $60000 ($600 per table). How many tables of good quality can result, and how much does it cost to get there? 75 finished tables, with $1000 of parts and labor in each table (another $75000) means you have $135,000 in 75 tables ready to sell, or $1800 per table cost. You'd have to sell them for more than $3000 apiece (+ cloth and installation) to make any money.

That sounds too high to me. More promising would be to have $500 in the table, delivered for refurb, and $500 in the refurb. Then $2000 becomes a reasonable sales price.

I just don't know if that cost level is possible with many 50 year old tables. You could count on refinishishing the legs, aprons, and sometimes rails. How often new rubber? How often rebuilt rails? The new rubber alone would put you over the $500 refurb number, wouldn't it?

That's why I'm asking in the Mechanic forum...Say you had a wood refinishing guy with a booth, and a rails and rubber guy, and a metal parts guy - machining, powder-coating, whatever. They cost you $120,000 a year. Can they turn out on average one refurbed GC a day? (Thirty a month, 360 a year?) That's $333 in labor per table, which works economically.

Maybe they can only do one every two days, maybe 2 a day - I have no idea. And what will new parts and supplies cost average?
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If I had a million dollars just laying around, I wouldn't touch this idea with a 10 foot pole!;)
 
realkingcobra said:
if i had a million dollars just laying around, i wouldn't touch this idea with a 10 foot pole!;)
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bingo !!!.........the market is in the crapper and has been for some time with no sign of recovery. where have you been?
 
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Dartman said:
No comment on the "idea" but there is a huge market for used equipment.
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In this case...only if I personally buy it, and I personally fix up the pool tables....and I personally sell them....one at a time, and only promote for sale....ONE pool table at a time...until they're all sold. But it's kind of hard to do all the work needed to be done to them....one at a time, and still maintain a living...while they're sold off one at time:grin:
 
Dartman said:
No comment on the "idea" but there is a huge market for used equipment.
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The idea is a good one. I know Jay does this aswell as Dave from Boston. They buy up pool rooms and recondition the tables and sell them. Myself, Bob DeTurk and John Burns have been doing it for about 2 years now. We currently have 40 Gold Crown 1, 2, 3's in stock. We sell to homes and commercial accounts.
 
refurb claasic gold Crowns

I picked up 10 GC II's from a bowling alley in N Indiana last year and have been fixing them up and selling them one by one in the Dallas area. I only have 4 left and will do it again if I can.
 
It'd be a labor of love for sure.
Buy used table for under a grand?
Change cushions and maybe subrails? Re-paint and re-chrome corners ?
Re-cloth and deliver for $3-4K.

Hauling labor, storing labor and cost ?
Might as well make coffee at Starbucks. :D
 
JoeyInCali said:
It'd be a labor of love for sure.
Buy used table for under a grand?
Change cushions and maybe subrails? Re-paint and re-chrome corners ?
Re-cloth and deliver for $3-4K.

Hauling labor, storing labor and cost ?
Might as well make coffee at Starbucks. :D
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You're so right....I've done a few here and there....but for the most part....you have to do all this work to get the table back in to playing condition....sub-rails...cushions....redo castings....redo feet.....then buy balls ...pockets......cloth.....rack......then hope to get 3500 after sitting on the table for months......then delivery and set-up.
That business was short lived with me.....now and Anniversary or Centennial I enjoy doing the work......and love the out come on such a beautiful table.

Just way to much work for the little return. (IMO)
 
perfectpocketz said:
You're so right....I've done a few here and there....but for the most part....you have to do all this work to get the table back in to playing condition....sub-rails...cushions....redo castings....redo feet.....then buy balls ...pockets......cloth.....rack......then hope to get 3500 after sitting on the table for months......then delivery and set-up.
That business was short lived with me.....now and Anniversary or Centennial I enjoy doing the work......and love the out come on such a beautiful table.

Just way to much work for the little return. (IMO)
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Their ads always say GOOD CONDITION too.
Some GC's have salvaged parts too ( AMF ). I know one famous pool hall owner here sold a friend of mine an AMF'd GC.

My favorite are those selling their Murray and Olhausen tables they are dumping b/c they need GC's or Diamonds to get the players in.
They actually think they can get 1K for their Murray or Olhausen.

Fixing tables and selling them are definitely labor of love. Specially here in California. Where storage ain't cheap. And if you had to comply with all the nazi laws, you won't even start.
 
Keep an eye out for auctions.
Several years back I picked up an amusement auction lot that included an antique 9' table and 2 slates for 7' valley for $18.
 
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