Why has no one beat Mosconi's high run?

[Mr. Bond]

I just asked my father about this and he has only a little recollection about it. He said that it was either Mosconi's wife who told him, or it was someone else who knew Mosconi's wife, but the information came from her. She said that archival material was in the possession of Brunswick and the material was kept in a warehouse that burned down, destroying everything.

Again, my father was a little fuzzy about how he came across the information, but is was a personal communication. The internet did not exist back then. He was 100% sure that this is the story he was told.

I'd be interested to hear if there is more detail on the incident. I'm sure Brunswick must know something about it.

He's right, they did have a fire....and a flood, and a fire, and another fire, and more records purging incidents than Hillary Clinton and Richard Nixon combined lol

However, I suspect that very little of those losses were actual films and/or video, because it just wasn't in their heads to record such things. Brunswick with all their greatness, may very well go down in history as the worst record keepers in history. Some of it by accident, and some of it was very intentional; they did and do have things to hide.

That said, also keep in mind the technology that was available during Willie's reign. Actual film was expensive, noisy and tedious at best, television was still in its infancy, and video archivists didn't exist...basically three strikes against future fans of the game ever seeing footage of that era.

However, as luck would have it, some footage has survived, it's just few and far between.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

So he thinks he could beat it if he spent 3 or 4 months, 10 hours a day, and had a good "incentive".

Makes me wonder what Mosconi would have done under the same circumstances.

Good point, plus I find it really hard to believe (with all due respect to Mr. Schmitt) that anyone claiming she/he "could" it doesn't just actually do it instead of talking about it...

 

[book collector]

I believe it's mostly that the pros don't play as much straight pool because their financial incentive is in other games.

However there are pro players who play a lot of 14.1 and often do runs on practice tables for videos. There are 300+ runs out there on video, and there's some incentive to sell those videos. I think it's a matter of time before some of these guys realize they can make some money off a 600+ run caught on video, even on easy tables.

The fact that they haven't broken the record already, even on an easy tables speaks a lot to just how good mosconi was! He was the best at the time. That's like an efren or earl in their prime, who played exclusively straight pool.

It's not just gonna take a pro playing an easy table to beat the record, it's gonna a take an elite pro!

The big question is ...if it was beaten on video, would it be accepted?

 

[JB Cases]

The big question is ...if it was beaten on video, would it be accepted?

I don't know. You'd have to ask whomever is responsible for keeping the 526 as an official record.

I think it would be accepted by most of us but some would claim the video was edited.

My thought is put up a $10,000 prize, define the rules as to what will be accepted and see what happens.

That's how we ended up with resin balls after all. Brunswick put up a large cash prize looking for a substitute for ivory.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

I've seen quite a few times the argument of "player x could it if she/he had the right motivation" (money for eg).
Let everyone face the actual truth: there is absolutely no need for extra motivation if anyone is actually able to go down in history breaking such a record, with the benefits obviously going beyond fame.
"Minor detail": it has to be done instead of claiming it "could" be done.
Mosconi came out from the straight pool era, that is a fact to be considered, but in the end it has nothing to do with anyone claiming she/he is able to break his record. Either someone is indeed able to do so or not, and has to actually do it in order to prove claiming that she/he is, simple as that.
Would I bet against someone doing it? No, even if the odds are obviously in my favor. I don't have to prove anything, anyone who claims she/he can break the record does, preferably by "putting her/his money where her/his mouth is."
With all due respect to everyone, I find it to be disrespective to the memory of Mr. Mosconi people claiming they (or someone else) could do what he did but "there is no motivation".. Really??...

 

[Dan White]

I thought the Schmidt interview was very interesting. I think his take on playing on 8' tables and how much easier it is was well stated and makes a lot of sense. He was also super careful not to be disrespectful of Mosconi's accomplishment. It was a little amusing to hear, on the one hand, Schmidt say, roughly, "Oh, absolutely the record on an 8 foot table could be beat with absolutely no problem... if you get the right players and conditions." Then he states the conditions: Get the 6 best straight pool players in the world, get the same table, give them enough money to be interested, let them play 10 hours a day for 3 or 4 months and someone is bound to break it! Now I know he is talking off the top of his head, so I give him some slack, but he also said that "no way" would the record be broken on a 9 foot table. Of course Mosconi ran 609 on a 9 footer, as probably have others we all know about.

He also said that Mosconi had the opportunity to run balls every day in exhibitions and so the 526 was an outcome of that. Maybe he just meant that he was in 14.1 stroke all the time because of playing it daily. The way he said it sounded like he was trying for a high run every day. Of course, his runs ended when he reached 100 so he didn't have 3 or 4 months of high run attempts.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

8 footers result in less distance shots, but less position space as well. And straight pool is mainly a position game and not a long shot game. So all this is quite relevant, same as time play.
It's true today's players don't play straight pool as much, but nobody can say they don't play enough.
If someone could have beaten that record by today we would have known it, after all it only takes a few hours to complete such an "unecessary" task, one could easily dedicate one of her/his nights out in order to do it and write history, if she/he can..

 

[Dan White]

8 footers result in less distance shots, but less position space as well. And straight pool is mainly a position game and not a long shot game. So all this is quite relevant, same as time play.
It's true today's players don't play straight pool as much, but nobody can say they don't play enough.
If someone could have beaten that record by today we would have known it, after all it only takes a few hours to complete such an "unecessary" task, one could easily dedicate one of her/his nights out in order to do it and write history, if she/he can..

To support your point, Schmidt was overflowing in his praise for the accomplishment, and basically said he'd give anything to break it. All he needs is to put an 8' table in his local pool hall and record everything. Even he said that you'd have to play in only 2 hour increments because you aren't going to run 220, miss, and then try another run. So it isn't like it would take away from his normal income stream to try to beat it.

Personally, if he tries long enough I think he probably would beat it. Schmidt has made some very long runs, but I know two of them were done with breaks in the middle. If Mosconi had taken some rest breaks instead of shooting for 2+ hours straight, maybe he'd reach 800!

 

[JB Cases]

I like how we can all allocate other people's time.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Nobody allocates anything, just pointing out that the only statements valid about pool performance are the ones made on a pool table, the rest is mostly fiction. Or else, all of us "could" for eg beat SVB, "only if we had the time and the motivation"..
That really must be the excuse of the century regarding "why no one has beat Mosconi's high run"..

 

[cookie man]

I thought the Schmidt interview was very interesting. I think his take on playing on 8' tables and how much easier it is was well stated and makes a lot of sense. He was also super careful not to be disrespectful of Mosconi's accomplishment. It was a little amusing to hear, on the one hand, Schmidt say, roughly, "Oh, absolutely the record on an 8 foot table could be beat with absolutely no problem... if you get the right players and conditions." Then he states the conditions: Get the 6 best straight pool players in the world, get the same table, give them enough money to be interested, let them play 10 hours a day for 3 or 4 months and someone is bound to break it! Now I know he is talking off the top of his head, so I give him some slack, but he also said that "no way" would the record be broken on a 9 foot table. Of course Mosconi ran 609 on a 9 footer, as probably have others we all know about.

He also said that Mosconi had the opportunity to run balls every day in exhibitions and so the 526 was an outcome of that. Maybe he just meant that he was in 14.1 stroke all the time because of playing it daily. The way he said it sounded like he was trying for a high run every day. Of course, his runs ended when he reached 100 so he didn't have 3 or 4 months of high run attempts.

I think it's a pretty prestigious record. If I was a real good 14:1 player i think i would invest some time to break it.

 

[Dan White]

I like how we can all allocate other people's time.

But did you listen to the whole audio clip? For a guy who would practically give anything to break the record, it would require surprisingly little to set up for a try. Just seems a little odd that nobody has gotten an 8' table and a camera. Maybe somebody will try.

Petros is saying "talk is cheap."

 

[JB Cases]

But did you listen to the whole audio clip? For a guy who would practically give anything to break the record, it would require surprisingly little to set up for a try. Just seems a little odd that nobody has gotten an 8' table and a camera. Maybe somebody will try.

Petros is saying "talk is cheap."

Then he won't really give anything. Doesn't mean he can't do it is my point.

Just means he hasn't.

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[JoeyInCali]

If Brinswick sponsored JS and Hohman, who knows?

Nobody is going to break Teo Stevenson's 3 heavyweight boxing gold medals.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

To clear things, nobody says "the record will never be broken", maybe it will some day.
Until now nobody seems to be good enough to break it, even the best modern players.
And talking about it sure doesn't help at all.
Another interesting question arising here is this one:
Why would anyone sponsor anyone, most possibly for not achieving a goal?...

 

[Banks]

Mosconi cranked out 526 under the request to continue, not as a goal to try to break another record. If others can't do it, then they can't do it. That these "better shooters" would need to dedicate a portion of their life, combined with a monetary incentive, to top a fete done as a rarity during an exhibition is a testament to his capabilities.

 

[Mr. Bond]

How about a 309 run on a 10 foot table with 4.5" pockets

Willie being Willie - someone who could spit out 100+ runs like he was falling out of bed.Here's a few samples....


November 13, 1940
Mosconi Beats Lauri Twice
Willie won two blocks of his pocket billiard match with Onofrio Lauri...
..he triumphed, 125 to 13 in four innings, with an unfinished high run of 99.

January 11, 1941
MOSCONI DEFEATS CARAS
Willie Mosconi, who holds a commanding lead on the field, beat Jimmy Caras ... In his second game had a high run of 101, the fourth time since the beginning of the tournament..

February 12, 1941
MOSCONI DOWNS PROCITA
Willie Mosconi, leader in the race for the world pocket billiard championship...
....with a high run of 113, won in the afternoon, 125 to 21

February 24, 1941
MOSCONI INCREASES LEAD
Defeats Kelly Twice in World Pocket ... had high runs of 59 and 112

May 2, 1941
Mosconi Triumphs Twice
... high runs were 115 and 51 for the winner and 21 and 71 for Lauri .


February 24, 1945
MOSCONI TAKES 2 BLOCKS
Wins, 125-0, and 125-27, in Title Cue Match With Greenleaf


February 16, 1946
MOSCONI HAS RUN OF 102
Sets Record for Cue Match With Caras as He Divides 2 Blocks

March 18, 1946
MOSCONI INCREASES LEAD
( P)- Champion Willie Mosconi increased his lead over Caras..
The champion, who had a high run of 111 against Caras' best effort of 37, now leads ...

December 10, 1946
MOSCONI TIES CUE MARK
Tops Cranfield, 125 to 1, in Two Innings
the champion ran 125 and out for the longest run

May 15, 1947
Has High Run of 139 in Defeating Crane in Title Cue Series
CHICAGO, May 14 (IIP)-A high run of 139 helped Willie Mosconi, the challenger, win the ninth and tenth blocks of his world championship ...


November 13, 1947
MOSCONI KEEPS CUE TITLE; Beats Caras in Pocket Billiards
UP)...Caras registered the highest run of the series-121, while Mosconi'a high was 107


1950 - 10 FOOT TABLE NO LONGER STANDARD FOR PROFESSIONAL COMPETITION


January 13, 1951
Mosconi, Crane
PHILADELPHIA, Jan. 12 (UP)
-An unfinished high run of 107 tonight enabled the world pocket billiard champion, Willie Mosconi, to defeat Irving Crane, 150-38, ...

January 16, 1951
Mosconi Leads in Title Play
(UPI- Willie Mosconi held an 1800 to-1341 lead over Irving Crane of Binghamton, ny, tonight..... ... The champion had a high run of 104 in the afternoon.


January 22, 1952
Mosconi and Crane Divide
Willie Mosconi, world champion, and Irving Crane divided the first two blocks of their 1800-point exhibition ... In the first block, Mosconi had a high run of 114.

January 23, 1952
Mosconi Leads In Billiards
Willie Mosconi, world champion, beat Irving Crane twice yesterday....
.....won the afternoon match, 150--33, in six innings, with a high run of 101 .


May 1, 1952
Mosconi Sweeps Cue Match
Willie Mosconi, world champion, triumphed twice yesterday to complete a sweep...
.....high runs were 105 and 124 unfinished


November 11, 1952
Mosconi Beats Lauri Twice
Willie Mosconi, world champion, won the first two blocks of 1000-point exhibition
The titleholder's run of 123 at night was high for both blocks.

April 5, 1956
MOSCONI VICTOR, 150 - 0
Beats Eufemia in World Cue Tourney


December 21, 1960
MOSCONI BEATS LAURI
Willie Mosconi of Philadelphia clinched his 900-point match with Onofrio ...
... high runs of 39 and 122, with Lauri having clusters of 30 and 16.

 

[JB Cases]

How about a 309 run on a 10 foot table with 4.5" pockets

Willie being Willie - someone who could spit out 100+ runs like he was falling out of bed.Here's a few samples....


November 13, 1940
Mosconi Beats Lauri Twice
Willie won two blocks of his pocket billiard match with Onofrio Lauri...
..he triumphed, 125 to 13 in four innings, with an unfinished high run of 99.

January 11, 1941
MOSCONI DEFEATS CARAS
Willie Mosconi, who holds a commanding lead on the field, beat Jimmy Caras ... In his second game had a high run of 101, the fourth time since the beginning of the tournament..

February 12, 1941
MOSCONI DOWNS PROCITA
Willie Mosconi, leader in the race for the world pocket billiard championship...
....with a high run of 113, won in the afternoon, 125 to 21

February 24, 1941
MOSCONI INCREASES LEAD
Defeats Kelly Twice in World Pocket ... had high runs of 59 and 112

May 2, 1941
Mosconi Triumphs Twice
... high runs were 115 and 51 for the winner and 21 and 71 for Lauri .


February 24, 1945
MOSCONI TAKES 2 BLOCKS
Wins, 125-0, and 125-27, in Title Cue Match With Greenleaf


February 16, 1946
MOSCONI HAS RUN OF 102
Sets Record for Cue Match With Caras as He Divides 2 Blocks

March 18, 1946
MOSCONI INCREASES LEAD
( P)- Champion Willie Mosconi increased his lead over Caras..
The champion, who had a high run of 111 against Caras' best effort of 37, now leads ...

December 10, 1946
MOSCONI TIES CUE MARK
Tops Cranfield, 125 to 1, in Two Innings
the champion ran 125 and out for the longest run

May 15, 1947
Has High Run of 139 in Defeating Crane in Title Cue Series
CHICAGO, May 14 (IIP)-A high run of 139 helped Willie Mosconi, the challenger, win the ninth and tenth blocks of his world championship ...


November 13, 1947
MOSCONI KEEPS CUE TITLE; Beats Caras in Pocket Billiards
UP)...Caras registered the highest run of the series-121, while Mosconi'a high was 107


1950 - 10 FOOT TABLE NO LONGER STANDARD FOR PROFESSIONAL COMPETITION


January 13, 1951
Mosconi, Crane
PHILADELPHIA, Jan. 12 (UP)
-An unfinished high run of 107 tonight enabled the world pocket billiard champion, Willie Mosconi, to defeat Irving Crane, 150-38, ...

January 16, 1951
Mosconi Leads in Title Play
(UPI- Willie Mosconi held an 1800 to-1341 lead over Irving Crane of Binghamton, ny, tonight..... ... The champion had a high run of 104 in the afternoon.


January 22, 1952
Mosconi and Crane Divide
Willie Mosconi, world champion, and Irving Crane divided the first two blocks of their 1800-point exhibition ... In the first block, Mosconi had a high run of 114.

January 23, 1952
Mosconi Leads In Billiards
Willie Mosconi, world champion, beat Irving Crane twice yesterday....
.....won the afternoon match, 150--33, in six innings, with a high run of 101 .


May 1, 1952
Mosconi Sweeps Cue Match
Willie Mosconi, world champion, triumphed twice yesterday to complete a sweep...
.....high runs were 105 and 124 unfinished


November 11, 1952
Mosconi Beats Lauri Twice
Willie Mosconi, world champion, won the first two blocks of 1000-point exhibition
The titleholder's run of 123 at night was high for both blocks.

April 5, 1956
MOSCONI VICTOR, 150 - 0
Beats Eufemia in World Cue Tourney


December 21, 1960
MOSCONI BEATS LAURI
Willie Mosconi of Philadelphia clinched his 900-point match with Onofrio ...
... high runs of 39 and 122, with Lauri having clusters of 30 and 16.

I consider this to be the better record and the one we should hold in reverence.

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[Corwyn_8]

I do find it amusing how many talk about getting a loose pocket 8 foot table to try to replicate the record, no one talks about getting ivory or clay balls (or whatever they used) and cloth appropriate to the era, or not using their glove or LD cue shaft, or getting into a suit. Either do it on today's equipment, or yesterday's, don't pick and choose the easier of both.

Thank You Kindly.

 

[JB Cases]

I do find it amusing how many talk about getting a loose pocket 8 foot table to try to replicate the record, no one talks about getting ivory or clay balls (or whatever they used) and cloth appropriate to the era, or not using their glove or LD cue shaft, or getting into a suit. Either do it on today's equipment, or yesterday's, don't pick and choose the easier of both.

Thank You Kindly.

Which is why I have said let's come up with a table difficulty chart that defines run equivalents for different tables.



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