Why I never bought one....

[JoeyA]

I don't know much about woodwork but how can these LD companies be so far off center. If you did it by hand and guessed center you would have to be closer than what I have seen on this thread. It is just so hard to believe but a picture does speaks a thousand words.

It is hard to believe that the holes could be drilled that far off center on any LD shaft.

That being said, if they are on occasion being drilled that far off center then their quality control needs to be looked at very carefully before another manufacturer starts producing another good competing product and before customers start questioning the quality of the product they are paying good money for.

I am struggling for another excuse why I am not in the winner's circle more often and will soon be looking for the nearest xray machine.

JoeyA

 

[RiverCity]

You are picturing things a little wrong.... I would have to see their manufacturing process to diagnose the exact problem, but the most common reason is the blank being chucked poorly. If its a 3 jaw chuck, there could be sawdust ect stuck to one jaw etc. Worst case with a 3 jaw is that the piece be slightly inbetween 2 jaws and not touching the other one. Same thing goes for a collet chuck, if the collet is not getting blown out from time to time, sawdust can reside in the collet, causing the part to run out of allignment. Another option is the tailstock being off center.
Being that we have heard that the holes are bored, I am inclined to think it is a chucking problem. I cant speak for the pics in the OP thread. But as I have said I have seen more than one predator shaft break, and the common issue with each was an off center hole that created a weak point in the sidewall of the shaft.
Chuck

 

[JoeyInCali]

You are picturing things a little wrong.... I would have to see their manufacturing process to diagnose the exact problem, but the most common reason is the blank being chucked poorly. If its a 3 jaw chuck, there could be sawdust ect stuck to one jaw etc. Worst case with a 3 jaw is that the piece be slightly inbetween 2 jaws and not touching the other one. Same thing goes for a collet chuck, if the collet is not getting blown out from time to time, sawdust can reside in the collet, causing the part to run out of allignment. Another option is the tailstock being off center.
Being that we have heard that the holes are bored, I am inclined to think it is a chucking problem. I cant speak for the pics in the OP thread. But as I have said I have seen more than one predator shaft break, and the common issue with each was an off center hole that created a weak point in the sidewall of the shaft.
Chuck

With the money they make, you would think they'd have a collet closer all set-up to do the boring operation.
I know Falcon had a had this machine to install their pins which took just seconds to drill and ream dead on.
I received an LD shaft about two weeks ago. I sent it back.
Some of the laminations' grain pattern was atrocious.
There was no way it would have stayed straight. It was almost spiral.
And when you rolled it, it looked like a barber shop spinner.

 

[PistolPat]

if you look at my join date...........

Maybe the original poster will answer that question. I'm curious myself.
Why now and not then?
JoeyA

I didnt join until Dec

 

[Fuji-whopper]

My join date is May 2006 but that's only with this screen name, over the course of the last few years I have had two or three different names and this is just the last incarnation with the latest "join date".

 

[staffi01]

X-ray pics of laminated shafts

Actually the simplest answer would be to find someone on AZB with access to an x-ray machine and just put a few representative shafts in that and post the pictures.

You like to see x-ray pics of laminated shafts, here they are:

The pic was taken from "Bollo" a member of the german forum "Billard aktuell".
Heres the link to the discussion: http://www.billard-aktuell.de/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=17978&start=70

If you like, there are more pics of x-rayed and "killed" laminated shafts in that thread.

Not one was that bad quality as shown here. Not one is out of center.

And btw. i'm not playing a laminated shaft


Regards from Germany,
Stefan

 

[JoeyA]

You like to see x-ray pics of laminated shafts, here they are:

The pic was taken from "Bollo" a member of the german forum "Billard aktuell".
Heres the link to the discussion: http://www.billard-aktuell.de/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=17978&start=70

If you like, there are more pics of x-rayed and "killed" laminated shafts in that thread.

Not one was that bad quality as shown here. Not one is out of center.

And btw. i'm not playing a laminated shaft


Regards from Germany,
Stefan

Stefan,
You are quite DA MAN! Thanks for the X-rays!

That's pretty cool even if you play with an unlaminated shaft.

JoeyA

 

[CrownCityCorey]

My join date is May 2006 but that's only with this screen name, over the course of the last few years I have had two or three different names and this is just the last incarnation with the latest "join date".

Holy Moly! My join date is 01-21-2005!!!

I have been hanging out with you all here for over 4 years! WTF! I was on CCB and RSB before that. Unbelievable!

I was already old when I got here though - dabbled when very young, but commitedly joined the billiard sports in 1986. Holy shi*! 23 years! B.S.! Say it aint so!!!

What I say is Gospel...:thumbup:

 

[Fuji-whopper]

Damn Corey, you have to stop exercising it's melting your brain.

Thank you for posting the x-rays that's awesome, but do you see how large those holes are and at what proportion they are to the shaft? That is why I thought the picture was doctored or done falsely, the holes in the front of the shaft just seemed out of proportion in that picture.

 

[rocky]

Fuji is right guys, the whole is usally much bigger than the one in the picture. I have cue appart hundreds of these things and never seen one that looked like that. the bore is usually very consistant.

 

[Bollingo]

Rumor

Hi,
this thread here also started a big discussion in Germany. So I have asked 'staffi01' to publish my pictures. I am the crazy X-Ray-Man with the nick 'Bollo'.
Since I have a couple of shafts and I broke my arm, I took a couple of them along to the doctor last week and x-rayed them. There are three 314^2, one older 314, one Z^2 and one Hybrid Pro. I also have got an old broken 314 first Generation. All shafts were bought over the years, so they are never of the same production charge.
Since I am engineer for production, I would guess, it is all a faked picture to start a rumour. But I do not know, how Predator and the other companies produce their shafts to confirm this.
But the companies use a turning lathe probably and with this machine the hole is always center!

Following my pictures:




Cut around 2 inches underneath the ferule.

And here the link to the German discussion:
http://www.billard-aktuell.de/modul...pic&t=17978&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=70

View attachment 88331
View attachment 88410
Predator shaft 314

Too sad, I cannot quote the pictures!

 

[hard english]

Hi,
this thread here also started a big discussion in Germany. So I have asked 'staffi01' to publish my pictures. I am the crazy X-Ray-Man with the nick 'Bollo'.
Since I have a couple of shafts and I broke my arm, I took a couple of them along to the doctor last week and x-rayed them. There are three 314^2, one older 314, one Z^2 and one Hybrid Pro. I also have got an old broken 314 first Generation. All shafts were bought over the years, so they are never of the same production charge.
Since I am engineer for production, I would guess, it is all a faked picture to start a rumour. But I do not know, how Predator and the other companies produce their shafts to confirm this.
But the companies use a turning lathe probably and with this machine the hole is always center!

Following my pictures:




Cut around 2 inches underneath the ferule.

And here the link to the German discussion:
http://www.billard-aktuell.de/modul...pic&t=17978&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=70



Too sad, I cannot quote the pictures!

Just because the hole is centered does not mean that the lamination is also centered. In the case of the 314 the shaft it would have to be cut above the drilled out area in order to verify this.

Where the lamination comes together at the center is where it must be turn from in order for each pie section to be proportional. If it is not turned from the center the pie sections will be larger than the one opposite from it or visa versa.

It would not be super critical if it were slightly off (and I am sure it happens often because it is the nature of the process - quality control should catch the majority of these defects), but us billiard nuts would like to think that our cues are perfectly symmetrical. OH-WELL!

Note too, that the grain in a regular maple shaft is going to be far from symmetrical.

 

[Bollingo]

Just because the hole is centered does not mean that the lamination is also centered. In the case of the 314 the shaft it would have to be cut above the drilled out area in order to verify this.

Where the lamination comes together at the center is where it must be turn from in order for each pie section to be proportional. If it is not turned from the center the pie sections will be larger than the one opposite from it or visa versa.

It would not be super critical if it were slightly off (and I am sure it happens often because it is the nature of the process - quality control should catch the majority of these defects), but us billiard nuts would like to think that our cues are perfectly symmetrical. OH-WELL!

Note too, that the grain in a regular maple shaft is going to be far from symmetrical.

Certainly one good example is not a proof that all shafts are centered. But the hole at the picture of the opening thread seem to be proportinal too small. And of course I won't cut my other shafts, since they are not broken and I love playing them. This is why I x-rayed them by the oportunity of my accident. And the holes in the other 6 shafts are centered as well.

By this cut shaft all pie section are also centered. And the idea of the pie pieces construction is to reduce the effect of the not symmetrical grain of maple. I also asked my personal cue repair shop, who saw a lot of broken 314 shafts, but he has never seen a hole of center.

I personal love to play the 314 shaft, but think, the wood quality is pretty poor! But the rest is as it should be.

 

[manwon]

I'm curious to know if there is a way to determine if your Predator shaft has the hole drilled off center short of destorying the shaft.

JoeyA

It will cost a little money, however, an Xray or possible an Untrasound should work. If you know someone in the Medical Field, you may be able to get it done for free.

Take care Joey

 

[manwon]

I've been to the Predator factory and not one shaft I ever saw looked like that.

Oh come on, when were you in China, Come on show us some pictures, I know you took some.:smile:

 

[Bollingo]

Since I made the x-ray pictures of a couple of laminated shaft and I also have the old broken 314, which I cut, I can only say: Everything is dead centered: The hole and the pie pieces. Look at the pictures above and now two more!
:thumbup:

:thumbup:


I do not like the company predator and their price policy, but I love playing their shafts after trieing and having a lot of other ones. What do I like. I have almost the same good shaft for different cues! The pro taper is perfekt for me. Of course, there are a lot of other good shafts on the market and everybody has to figure out, which charateristics he preferes!
But all this bad talk and rumour here I do not believe in. Especially since the hole at the picture seems to have a way too small diameter. Ok, at the end of a 314^2 hole the diameter is smaller than the first 2 Inches.
:thumbup:

 

[Bollingo]

Now I have been curios. I cut it once more one Inch off the end of the hole, that means 4 Inches under the ferule. And suprise: There the hole is no longer totally centered!

 

[PROG8R]

Oh come on, when were you in China, Come on show us some pictures, I know you took some.:smile:

They used to be in Jacksonville, not too long ago.

 

[Mostly Miss]

If people worried less about the cue and more about how to play then this wouldnt be an issue. Why do you think a top pro can pick up a bar cue and whoop the average joe with a bag full of the most state of the art equipment.

as in any sport the product manufacturers are going to do what they can to increase market share. The way to do this is new products and catchy advertising. If you like the way a cue plays, then who cares if it is boored out wrong.

Didnt SVB play with a loose Ferrule (or what sounded like it) for a long time? Seems to me he still played pretty good.

I play with a predator and I love it. i doubt I will ever cut it in half just to see what it is made of inside. I like how it shoots and that is good enough for me. If you are on a quest to find the stick that makes you better you will be looking for a long time.

 

[poolplayer2093]

If people worried less about the cue and more about how to play then this wouldnt be an issue. Why do you think a top pro can pick up a bar cue and whoop the average joe with a bag full of the most state of the art equipment.

as in any sport the product manufacturers are going to do what they can to increase market share. The way to do this is new products and catchy advertising. If you like the way a cue plays, then who cares if it is boored out wrong.

Didnt SVB play with a loose Ferrule (or what sounded like it) for a long time? Seems to me he still played pretty good.

I play with a predator and I love it. i doubt I will ever cut it in half just to see what it is made of inside. I like how it shoots and that is good enough for me. If you are on a quest to find the stick that makes you better you will be looking for a long time.

i think the only downfall to the hole being off center would be that the shaft would be more likely to warp