Since the smoking ban went into effect my GF and I play more and go out more. I have noticed less people playing leagues and pool in general but most of these places have pool tables in the smoking area. The smokers are wanting to go and play at the non smoking places now.
Why Pool is devastated by the new Smoking Laws.
- Thread starter Paul Schofield
- Start date
then put this garbage in the room owner discussion area, not the general area. then you can hear from only room owners instead of people who think you are a bit of a joke.
Almost every one of these posts are anecdotal. Look beyond your own backyard. How about the big picture? Poolrooms have been a staple in the American culture for more than a century. I do not see the 70% loss of golf courses, bowling alleys, casinos, restaurants and bars. They compete against all the same things we do. Most definitely, the demographics of the smoking sector of the pool community is an enormous factor in all of this.
The following is not anecdotal:
by CocoboloCowboy
No Smoking has been the LAW of the Land in Arizona almost 3 years. About the only place you can smoke is your home, in an open space like walk on a side walk, parking lot, outside your home, your auto, Private Clubs like Elks, DAV, AM Legion, etc. You can still Smoke INSIDE if the Club Allows it.
Pool Rooms, Pool Bars, and Sports BARS HAVE CLOSED by the Armadas.
The following is not anecdotal:
by CocoboloCowboy
No Smoking has been the LAW of the Land in Arizona almost 3 years. About the only place you can smoke is your home, in an open space like walk on a side walk, parking lot, outside your home, your auto, Private Clubs like Elks, DAV, AM Legion, etc. You can still Smoke INSIDE if the Club Allows it.
Pool Rooms, Pool Bars, and Sports BARS HAVE CLOSED by the Armadas.
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In Ohio they did something really stupid. They passed the ban but apparently forgot to fund any enforcement of the ban. Therefore, of the 6 bars that my league visits, I only know of one that asks smokers to step outside. Other than that one, the other 5 do next to nothing different now than they did before the ban. At most there isn't ashtrays on every table. You either have to just ask for one, or use the nearest empty beverage container. BTW, one of these is really a pool hall that happens to serve drinks, and they are as smoky now as ever.
Someone else said it and I agree, if people really like to play pool, I don't think the smoking ban is going to drive away customers. Inversely though, by not enforcing it, and still having smokey pool rooms, I think the environment might discourage potential new customers.
Someone else said it and I agree, if people really like to play pool, I don't think the smoking ban is going to drive away customers. Inversely though, by not enforcing it, and still having smokey pool rooms, I think the environment might discourage potential new customers.
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wait, hold on, I don't want to go back searching for the posts to quote them, but did a few folks mention DWI laws having an effect as well? LOL!!!!
I'm not going to play pool anymore....if I get HAMMERED and have to swerve, errrr, drive home and get busted....it's just not worth it.
Remember the good ole days when smoking on a plane was fine? Or when, Mel over the hot stove, stogie lit and clenched between his teeth, cooked up your bacon and eggs, and Flo brought em to ya, cig dangling from obnoxiously red lipsticked lips? Or what about when Johnny had to go to the emergency room after falling outta the tree and breaking his arm. Good ole Doc Wilson could set that arm, pat Johnny on the head, hand him a lollipop, and shake his dad's hand before even finishing one smoke!
Poolhalls, bars, restaurants, casinos, etc. have a legitimate gripe that the government shouldn't he able to tell them that a legal activity CANNOT, under law, take place at a private business; BUT having smoked for a number of years, I can say, thank you for MAKING me go outside to smoke....the stench kept me from playing more, and now that is not an issue. I no longer smoke smoke, but will have the occasional cigar. Making it more inconvenient (by not being able to do it indoors) probably make me do it less often, and saves me money. thanks again. I'm guessing the ones that are REALLY ticked about the bans are the folks that smoke in their houses or vehicles (two things I wouldn't do when I smoked). They should try carrying the bans over to their personal property as well then they won't mind it as much when they go out
I'm not going to play pool anymore....if I get HAMMERED and have to swerve, errrr, drive home and get busted....it's just not worth it.
Remember the good ole days when smoking on a plane was fine? Or when, Mel over the hot stove, stogie lit and clenched between his teeth, cooked up your bacon and eggs, and Flo brought em to ya, cig dangling from obnoxiously red lipsticked lips? Or what about when Johnny had to go to the emergency room after falling outta the tree and breaking his arm. Good ole Doc Wilson could set that arm, pat Johnny on the head, hand him a lollipop, and shake his dad's hand before even finishing one smoke!
Poolhalls, bars, restaurants, casinos, etc. have a legitimate gripe that the government shouldn't he able to tell them that a legal activity CANNOT, under law, take place at a private business; BUT having smoked for a number of years, I can say, thank you for MAKING me go outside to smoke....the stench kept me from playing more, and now that is not an issue. I no longer smoke smoke, but will have the occasional cigar. Making it more inconvenient (by not being able to do it indoors) probably make me do it less often, and saves me money. thanks again. I'm guessing the ones that are REALLY ticked about the bans are the folks that smoke in their houses or vehicles (two things I wouldn't do when I smoked). They should try carrying the bans over to their personal property as well then they won't mind it as much when they go out
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The problem with this though Paul, is that it doesn't provide any evidence whatsoever that the one is the cause of the other. How about:
Unemployment has risen in Arizona - pool rooms have closed by the armadas.
Or,
DUI laws have gotten tough in Arizona - pool halls have closed by the armadas.
Or,
People have found a lot of other things to do - pool halls have closed by the armadas.
Or,
Conflicts over the 9 Ball rack have reached epidemic proportions - pool halls are closing by the armadas.
You get the point. Yeah, smoking laws may be a contributing factor, but not much more than that. I think you are overstating it's effect.
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This post is a classic example of what you are talking about...
I agree that smoking is not the sole cause, or even a significant cause, of poolrooms closing. The rest exemplifies the exact attitude that cripples this country.
Do you own a room? Do you do the books for a room? How do you know? We have only heard from one room owner and he said that no factor has affected his business more than the smoking ban (anecdotal also). 70% of our rooms are just gone. People have found other things to do? How many bowling alleys are gone? How many golf courses are just gone? The smoking ban affects the poolroom business the hardest because of the customer demographics.
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Well using your train of thought bowling alleys and bar should be closing too. Why haven't bowling alley's and bars closed by the armadas? They are subject to the same non smoking laws as pool halls at least here and most other places. Last time I went bowling there was a 2 hour wait to get a lane. And the bars in this area are doing great. So it seems like pool is suffering but the other places that are affected by the ban are doing better. So is it the ban or smoking or people aren't interested in playing pool?
There is no way that you can blame pools troubles on one thing like the smoking ban. I personally believe there are many factors involved. One is that the economy has tanked for a long period of time. This has had devasting effects on the disposable income that many use to entertain themselves. We don't need to play pool as much as we need to pay our bills. The middle class has been hammered and they made up a lot of the people that play pool. When I was a kid it was a blue collar activity but now you see pool halls with dress codes, holy cow that would have never worked back in the 60's or 70's for that matter. Secondly there is the advent of the computer age with all the associated gaming options that the kids enjoy today. Hell pool is hard to master but in six months a kid can master many computer generated games. It's kind of narrow minded to blame pools demise on one thing like the ban on smoking just my opinion...
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/10-American-Industries-Still-minyanville-2666915551.html
over 12000 bowling alleys in the 60's....less than 5800 now. The steepest declines were WELL BEFORE smoking bans.
I love how
these guys come on here and go on about how everyone is going non smoking in our country WITHOUT ANY HARD FACTS TO BACK IT UP WITH.
Fact is, I have been playing Pool for 50 years, and I have also smoked for 50 years. Over the course of those 50 years, there does seem to be less smokers, but NOT BY MUCH. We went non smoking, I believe in 2009 or 10, but for every 'rule' there is a way around it.
I know of 2 Pool rooms here, that have part of there room non smoking and another part smoking. The one I know, for sure, established a Cigar Bar in about half of their room. There are 10 Valley Bartables in that back room. Smoking is permitted in the back room. No smoking in the front room, which also has 10 Valley bartables, 3 GC's, and a Snooker table.
The part that is smoking has 2-3 times the people in it at all times than the non smoking part. People like to smoke while they are playing Pool... period. They are not allowed to smoke near a Pool table, just at the tables around the Pool tables, or in a little room in back where furniture and a Big Screen TV is located. Also in this 'back room' are 2 Poker tables where Holdem goes on from about 11 at night until 5 or 6 in the morning.
Basically, smokers are just making due with whatever options are available to them.d
these guys come on here and go on about how everyone is going non smoking in our country WITHOUT ANY HARD FACTS TO BACK IT UP WITH.
Fact is, I have been playing Pool for 50 years, and I have also smoked for 50 years. Over the course of those 50 years, there does seem to be less smokers, but NOT BY MUCH. We went non smoking, I believe in 2009 or 10, but for every 'rule' there is a way around it.
I know of 2 Pool rooms here, that have part of there room non smoking and another part smoking. The one I know, for sure, established a Cigar Bar in about half of their room. There are 10 Valley Bartables in that back room. Smoking is permitted in the back room. No smoking in the front room, which also has 10 Valley bartables, 3 GC's, and a Snooker table.
The part that is smoking has 2-3 times the people in it at all times than the non smoking part. People like to smoke while they are playing Pool... period. They are not allowed to smoke near a Pool table, just at the tables around the Pool tables, or in a little room in back where furniture and a Big Screen TV is located. Also in this 'back room' are 2 Poker tables where Holdem goes on from about 11 at night until 5 or 6 in the morning.
Basically, smokers are just making due with whatever options are available to them.d
No, i don't own a room. Did you post this in the room owner's discussion forum, no.
So you own a room. So what. How much more do you really know than the rest of us to draw the conclusion you do? Did you commission a study by a qualified market research group to have drawn your conclusion? If you did, you should have led with it. You criticize posters here for offering their anecdotal experience on this topic, but what is the support for your conclusions other than your anecdotal experience as a room owner?
Sorry, but to convince me it is the main cause of the demise of the pool rooms in this country you need to provide a little more evidence linking the cause to the effect than simply stating that because business is down since smoking bans went into effect it must the main cause. Where I live no smoking laws have been in effect for years but they still don't prevent people from smoking at the pool hall if they want to. They just can't smoke IN the pool hall. Smokers have adapted.
When history is written I just don't believe no smoking laws will be the cited as the main reason the game of pool declined in this country, other than as a contributing factor.
And until you post the Rand Corporation study you had conducted, all either you or the rest of us have is an opinion.
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I think the golf industry is suffering as well, despite the demographics. More courses have closed in recent years than new ones have opened. Established clubs are struggling with reduced memberships and increased costs.
Just saying, when my pool room was forced to go non smoking, I lost 60% of my table revenue immediately. It did come back to a loss of 40% before I had to throw in the towel. On average 80% of the tables that were occupied at 9pm had at least one smoker playing (I took a survey every night at 9pm for two weeks before the city council voted on the ban). Was my business lagging before the ban? Yes. And I was doing things to develop the most business possible. Ultimately we may have had to close. But there is absolutely no question that implementation of the smoking ban put me out of business.
Bob
Bob
Our demographics are different.
Thanks Bob (doitforthegame) post #55. You are the second room owner that has commented. I would like to hear from a room owner who's business has increased as a result of the smoking ban. Everyone reads the main forum (not the room owners forum).
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Oh my God! Logic on AZ forums?!?!? I don't know what to make of this...
(Great post!)
KMRUNOUT
Smoke?
Pool room close because their low IQ customers can't smoke?? I think most Poolrooms close because the people who own them are not busn. savy at all. Most rooms are opened by a pool player/ gambler that has no clue how to attract customers into their busn. People are creatures of habbit and when they are having fun in your room they quickly get into the habbit of coming back.It takes more then a pooltable and a cigarette to keep people coming back.I ran two leagues for a now defunct poolroom in Northfield Ohio.I did it for free, because I LOVE the game. Not only did none of the 3 owners appreciate it they actually complained that their take was not enough.Each player paid $12 a week the romm received 50%.I tried to open the owners eyes to all the extra spin off busn. they received from the league players coming in thru out the week to practice to food and beverage sales etc.They could not grasp it.I ran the 2 leagues with NO HELP at all from ownership for 10yrs.Their constant griping and complaining about everything eventually wore most of the customers out.Every room in the Northeast Ohio area with the exception of Diamond Billiards in Akron has been owned by some inexperinced person with no mind for busn.Diamonds in Akron was owned by the late Larry Robinson a former owner of a Bowling Alley that took that Busn. plan to his pool room and was very successful.If our game of pool relies on low IQ people with a passion for smoking we are DOOMED!
Pool room close because their low IQ customers can't smoke?? I think most Poolrooms close because the people who own them are not busn. savy at all. Most rooms are opened by a pool player/ gambler that has no clue how to attract customers into their busn. People are creatures of habbit and when they are having fun in your room they quickly get into the habbit of coming back.It takes more then a pooltable and a cigarette to keep people coming back.I ran two leagues for a now defunct poolroom in Northfield Ohio.I did it for free, because I LOVE the game. Not only did none of the 3 owners appreciate it they actually complained that their take was not enough.Each player paid $12 a week the romm received 50%.I tried to open the owners eyes to all the extra spin off busn. they received from the league players coming in thru out the week to practice to food and beverage sales etc.They could not grasp it.I ran the 2 leagues with NO HELP at all from ownership for 10yrs.Their constant griping and complaining about everything eventually wore most of the customers out.Every room in the Northeast Ohio area with the exception of Diamond Billiards in Akron has been owned by some inexperinced person with no mind for busn.Diamonds in Akron was owned by the late Larry Robinson a former owner of a Bowling Alley that took that Busn. plan to his pool room and was very successful.If our game of pool relies on low IQ people with a passion for smoking we are DOOMED!
Just a Couple Random Thoughts
There may be more to the smoking thing than meets the eye. I don't smoke and I used to hate how bad I would smell after playing pool for a few hours in a smoking room. I can't imagine that the smoking laws haven't hurt pool. I'm pretty sure they have, but of course I have only my own observations to draw upon.
First thing - how good is it for business when every time a player gets a couple of seconds between shooting they have to run outside to take a few puffs? Most people think this isn't a big deal but every time someone has to leave the building they have to make a conscious decision to return back into it. On top of that, when they are outside they aren't spending money. Lastly, if people constantly have the thought in the back of their mind that they need to run outside to smoke they aren't going to be as comfortable and therefore not as willing to spend money.
There's another thing going on too that I'm beginning to notice - pool is moving underground so to speak. I've been hearing about guys that go to play at "the barn" or the garage, or so and so's house. Everybody used to hang out at the pool room - not so much anymore. A lot of these guys enjoy the freedom that comes with playing out at the barn. Many of these types enjoy smoking (and not just cigarettes). If they can at least smoke a few smokes and maybe drink a beer or two while playing they don't mind hanging out. Once you make it a chore for them to even smoke - they get out of the hall and head to the hang out.
The whole thing stinks. I didn't like coming home smelling like smoke any more than the next guy but I would prefer that over having more rooms close.
There may be more to the smoking thing than meets the eye. I don't smoke and I used to hate how bad I would smell after playing pool for a few hours in a smoking room. I can't imagine that the smoking laws haven't hurt pool. I'm pretty sure they have, but of course I have only my own observations to draw upon.
First thing - how good is it for business when every time a player gets a couple of seconds between shooting they have to run outside to take a few puffs? Most people think this isn't a big deal but every time someone has to leave the building they have to make a conscious decision to return back into it. On top of that, when they are outside they aren't spending money. Lastly, if people constantly have the thought in the back of their mind that they need to run outside to smoke they aren't going to be as comfortable and therefore not as willing to spend money.
There's another thing going on too that I'm beginning to notice - pool is moving underground so to speak. I've been hearing about guys that go to play at "the barn" or the garage, or so and so's house. Everybody used to hang out at the pool room - not so much anymore. A lot of these guys enjoy the freedom that comes with playing out at the barn. Many of these types enjoy smoking (and not just cigarettes). If they can at least smoke a few smokes and maybe drink a beer or two while playing they don't mind hanging out. Once you make it a chore for them to even smoke - they get out of the hall and head to the hang out.
The whole thing stinks. I didn't like coming home smelling like smoke any more than the next guy but I would prefer that over having more rooms close.