Why Pool is devastated by the new Smoking Laws.

My observation is that the rooms around me have closed because no more young people were coming in. There used to be at least half the tables loaded with 3-4 players in their teens and early 20's -- none of whom could really play, but they were all having fun, and that included girls too. Then it seemed like overnight, no more of these casual young players, just out for fun. They apparently found other things to do. It was uncanny really. I have no idea where they went -- video games maybe?
 
Paul Schofield said:
Within our current demographic, there are not enough non-smokers to adequately sustain a viable poolroom.
Click to expand...

Contrary to rooms that are doing well in non-smoking locations?


Like I said, I don't argue that what you say is untrue. I'm merely stating that the smoking rooms are "married" to the smoker demographic in a sense. This dependency is a fatal flaw, because being dependent on smokers puts the business at the mercy of the anti-smoking movement. Which, is large and powerful and slowly making gains across the country. It's a trend that is NOT going to reverse.


There aren't enough non-smokers to support said room because they've been kept away or turned off by the smoke. It takes time for people to come back or rediscover pool. Probably a lot longer than a pool room that was dependent on smokers has before they go out of business.


It's not pretty, but some rooms that are totally dependent on smokers who won't come back because they can't smoke inside are either going to have to adapt by appealing to non-smokers, or they will close doors. The law in and of itself cannot be completely blamed. For there are non-smoking rooms that are doing just fine. They're doing something right. They've found a way to adapt or appeal.


That reflects poorly on the smokers. Think about it. They love their dirty habit more than pool. Meanwhile, non-smokers, like myself - love pool so much, we put up with their filth for years. Breathing that crap to come to rooms and play and drink. WHO is more committed to the pool room and pool in general?? Yet, it's the precious smokers being catered to.


Think about that :wink:
 
Grilled Cheese said:
Pool room business is down across the board. Even in states that allow smoking in pool rooms.


Does anyone ever count the number of people LOST because of pool rooms being smoking? There are a lot of people who refuse to go to pool rooms because of the smoking.


Logically, one would think it would be a good idea for the pool industry to get on board with the growing trend, rather than fight tooth and nail to appeal to a shrinking, demographic. Less and less people are smoking. Less youth are taking it up as a habit than in the past. There are less smokers now, than at any point previously. The majority of potential customers are non-smokers, NOT smokers.


Why on Earth would the pool world keep on chasing after what will eventually become a small minority of people? That's not a strategy for long term success. Going after a demographic that will be almost obsolete.


Answer: Because they are short-sighted. They see the initial losses and don't see the potential growth. Pool rooms are and have been associated with smoking. They are also one of the last businesses and places to switch over or in many places, still have smoking. Because of that, perceptions and culture has not adapted yet. It takes time. Now is a very bad time for these laws to take effect, forcing pool rooms to change or adapt in the middle of a depression for pool rooms.


There's a lot of hysteria out there. Does a smoking ban keep people from going to bars and clubs? Do people just stop drinking? Do they stop going out? Of course not. I've been to places that are non-smoking but that have full liquor bars. There's PLENTY of people drinking. There's PLENTY of people who want to get trashed who have no interest in smoking or who smoke.


Is not liquor the #1 source of income for pool rooms? Yes it is.


Clinging to smokers is a recipe for disaster. Clinging to the smoking clientele is a sure way to go out of business down the road. Because their time is numbered. It's only a matter of time before these smoking laws are universal across the nation. Then what?

In states where smoking is banned most places, except for bars and pool rooms, pool rooms are actually doing well appealing to the crowd of smokers who want a place they can hang and light up a smoke. That's not a case of market forces in play, but rather manipulation by government through the use of laws. They will eventually stop smoking in these rooms and then what? Attracting that clientele will no longer work. Now comes the day of reckoning, when the pool room no longer has a clique clientele, but has to compete for "mainstream" customers of all types. They can no longer rely on being a safe-zone or island for those persecuted smokers to land.


Pool rooms are closing up all around the country. Even in smoking states, counties and cities. That has more to do with the bad economy. Don't forget, that thousands of rooms opened up in the last decade or so too. Rooms that did not exist before. They opened only because of the window of opportunity created by the various economic bubbles (dotcom, housing etcetera) and a lot of people had a lot of disposable income to go out and party. A lot of people don't have that free ATM anymore with their stocks or their home equity, and naturally there is a retraction.

Rooms that had a business model that survived prior to the bubble boom, are still surviving now. The only thing hurting them is the high cost of rent. But that is crushing all store front businesses.


The sooner pool rooms can adapt to non-smoking, the better. The sooner they can find a away to attract or bring back people who weren't strictly smokers, the better. It's going to be a long painful process for that industry to rebuild image and get new customers. The smoking-ban movement has been going on for at least 20 years. It's unfortunate that pool is the last one out, because all other businesses have had to adapt a long time ago and have figured it out. They also have many customers that might have been pool players.


If pool rooms really die off as a result, and cannot adapt or appeal to non-smokers - what can anyone say at that point? Maybe pool's time is up?
Click to expand...

Grilled Cheese and I don't often see eye to eye here on the forums, but this time in my opinion he is 100% spot on. Nicely stated!
 
Grilled Cheese said:
The complainers just want to make an excuse for the fact that they cannot adapt, or have a customer base that are dedicated smokers.

My wife will not go to the pool room with me anymore - because of the SMOKE. She spends a lot more money in there than I do, and I spend more when she's with me as drinking, playing, eating and everything else is a group thing. I'm not going to do rounds of shots by myself. But I'll do them with her, her friends, my friends and others.


I'm not the only one like that. Most of the people I know have close friends, family or significant others who won't come with them because of the smoke. It ends up being only those people who love pool so much, they are willing to breathe the toxic smoke and stink like hell when they get home. A lot of people who want to go out, drink, laugh, eat and have a good time - don't love pool so much as to put up with that. And guess what? There's plenty of non-smoking places they can have their fun and not have to put up with that filth.


Thus, the pool room is occupied by smokers and the non-smokers that are willing to put up with it. The non-smokers willing to put up with it aren't that many. Thus, pool rooms appeal to two minority groups. Smokers and non-smokers who suffer the smoke.


And this is good for business?
Click to expand...

Agree.

Recently my wife and I were discussing going out to a pool hall to shoot some..... but we both quickly agreed that we didn't want to deal with the smoke and come home smelling like an ashtray.

So we rented a movie.
 
My best friend tried to get me playing pool several years ago, but the private club that he (and now I) belongs to was still allowing smoking. Once they changed to non-smoking 2 and 1/2 years ago, I took him up on his offer to teach me.

There was no way I could stay in that room for any amount of time, the stench was far too much. I would have to take a shower once I got home, and get my clothes into the washing machine right away. The smell of it was enough to fill up both my wife and one of my children. And that is supposed to be an attraction that makes one want to play pool? Pool is dying because more people can't go home smelling like that? I think not.

I've said it in these threads before, after some time passes once a smoking ban takes place, people get used to it. At least they did here in Maine. People still go out. People still bowl, they still play pool, they still go to restaurants. We have probably double the number of restaurants now as we did before the ban, and they're almost always busy, certainly on the weekends. We have the same number of bowling alleys, and they are always busy on league nights. We have at least as many bars/night clubs as we did before the ban. There are about the same number of places to play pool, give or take that one pool room that keeps opening and closing every year or two. (Rent is the major issue that room faces, as the landlord asks way too much, yet folks keep trying to make a go of it.)

People here know they have to go outside to smoke, and it's accepted. I bet that over half the players in our league smoke, and it doesn't slow down play very often. (Yes, once in a while someone will be outside when it's their turn to play, but I have yet to see someone take a break in their league match to go and smoke.)

There is alot going wrong with pool these days. To blame it on smoking bans seems rather short sighted, and selfish, to be blunt.
 
BasementDweller said:
There may be more to the smoking thing than meets the eye. I don't smoke and I used to hate how bad I would smell after playing pool for a few hours in a smoking room. I can't imagine that the smoking laws haven't hurt pool. I'm pretty sure they have, but of course I have only my own observations to draw upon.

First thing - how good is it for business when every time a player gets a couple of seconds between shooting they have to run outside to take a few puffs? Most people think this isn't a big deal but every time someone has to leave the building they have to make a conscious decision to return back into it. On top of that, when they are outside they aren't spending money. Lastly, if people constantly have the thought in the back of their mind that they need to run outside to smoke they aren't going to be as comfortable and therefore not as willing to spend money.

There's another thing going on too that I'm beginning to notice - pool is moving underground so to speak. I've been hearing about guys that go to play at "the barn" or the garage, or so and so's house. Everybody used to hang out at the pool room - not so much anymore. A lot of these guys enjoy the freedom that comes with playing out at the barn. Many of these types enjoy smoking (and not just cigarettes). If they can at least smoke a few smokes and maybe drink a beer or two while playing they don't mind hanging out. Once you make it a chore for them to even smoke - they get out of the hall and head to the hang out.

The whole thing stinks. I didn't like coming home smelling like smoke any more than the next guy but I would prefer that over having more rooms close.
Click to expand...

So make a fenced in outdoor smoking area where you can continue to drink, like all the intelligent and successful rooms and bars have done. Hell, they even have tables, a roof, heaters, and waitresses out there taking orders. It is actually pretty easy to think of solutions, but many poor business people would rather think of the problems...

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
So make a fenced in outdoor smoking area where you can continue to drink, like all the intelligent and successful rooms and bars have done. Hell, they even have tables, a roof, heaters, and waitresses out there taking orders. It is actually pretty easy to think of solutions, but many poor business people would rather think of the problems...

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...

As I said in the OP, the laws will only get more stringent as time moves on. Government will eventually get to these outdoor smoking areas.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-23/...beaches-smoking-ban-secondhand-smoke?_s=PM:US
 
Paul Schofield said:
As I said in the OP, the laws will only get more stringent as time moves on. Government will eventually get to these outdoor smoking areas.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-23/...beaches-smoking-ban-secondhand-smoke?_s=PM:US
Click to expand...

That article references public places, not fenced in areas specifically designed for smokers. Oh yes, the gummint is out to get ya, I know, I know.

How long is "eventually"? We've been no-smoking here for about a decade, and there has been no fervor to eliminate outdoor smoking areas at businesses here. It works, very nicely, for all concerned.
 
Paul Schofield said:
As I said in the OP, the laws will only get more stringent as time moves on. Government will eventually get to these outdoor smoking areas.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-23/...beaches-smoking-ban-secondhand-smoke?_s=PM:US
Click to expand...

This will be controlled by the local Democratic/want to control everything/liberal jerk governments who want to control every facet of our lives.

There have already been localized areas in the country that want to ban outdoor smoking in city streets/parks etc. just like you said.

Bottom line: you will only have to worry about this if you live in as a$$hole area of the country and you should be thinking about getting the hell out of there. Simple as that! A no brainer.
 
Just to reinforce my point that it is trickle down economics that has hurt pool more than any smoking laws: there are two studies out this week that show wage earners have lost earning power since 2000. An average workers income has dropped $10,000. a year. Instead of an average worker making $58,345, they now make $49,445. Has no smoking laws caused the average worker to lost that money? No it is the politics of destruction by the teabaggers. You vote against your own self interest and it cost everyone in the country. I pay more taxes than Bank of America. What is hurting this country is tax entitlements to oil, banks, Wall Street, and corporate America on the backs of the workers.
 

Attachments

  • lost-income-final.jpg
    lost-income-final.jpg
    46.9 KB · Views: 283
whitewolf said:
This will be controlled by the local Democratic/want to control everything/liberal jerk governments who want to control every facet of our lives.

There have already been localized areas in the country that want to ban outdoor smoking in city streets/parks etc. just like you said.

Bottom line: you will only have to worry about this if you live in as a$$hole area of the country and you should be thinking about getting the hell out of there. Simple as that! A no brainer.
Click to expand...



Can we keep the NPR crap in the NPR section. This thread for the most part has been civilized it would be nice to keep it that way.
 
KMRUNOUT said:
So make a fenced in outdoor smoking area where you can continue to drink, like all the intelligent and successful rooms and bars have done. Hell, they even have tables, a roof, heaters, and waitresses out there taking orders. It is actually pretty easy to think of solutions, but many poor business people would rather think of the problems...

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...

Actually an outdoor area as you described was specifically banned with the Haverhill ordinance.

Bob

ps: the comment about the rent above is unquestionably a huge factor in the demise of the pool rooms. Most rooms struggle with rent in the best of times, then you are doomed when you lose a large percentage of your business overnight.
 
Paul Schofield said:
As I said in the OP, the laws will only get more stringent as time moves on. Government will eventually get to these outdoor smoking areas.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-23/...beaches-smoking-ban-secondhand-smoke?_s=PM:US
Click to expand...


First there is a big difference between public places like beaches, schools parks and such. And private places open to the public like restaurants, pool rooms, bars and bowling alleys. Just like private clubs are governed differently. It's like comparing apples to oranges.


As it's been pointed out these bans have had an adverse effect on pool halls. At the same time everything else went south too. Sadly it was the LAST nail in the coffin for most of these places. However like bars and bowling alleys pool can get a resurgence too. All of these businesses have the same laws they have to adhere too. It's on the room owner to find ways to get people interested in their business.


Unless you live in a small town I would think your demographics are similar to most in the country. I would say roughly 20% are smokers which is pretty typical. As a business owner why would you target such a small group? Let's say your local population is 100,000 with the average 20% being smokers. That leaves 20,000. Now if you are lucky you will get a smaller percentage of that, roughly 3 to 5% for your business. That leaves you around 1000 customers who are primarily smokers. Now if you had been targeting everyone you could that number increases 5 times. Sounds to me like a bad business plan.
 
Regardless of the cause, poolrooms are seeing a decline in business. Poolroom owners have to do something to attract new customers. For that matter EVERY business fails if they don't bother to attract new customers and grow their business. Sitting back and enjoying the status quo is a recipe for failure.

So instead of wasting remarkable amounts of time bemoaning the state of the world and trying to cast blame, why not try to do things to encourage growth?

For example:

  1. Looking at the website for Best Billiards in Las Vegas, they offer free lessons to kids.
  2. You could work with the local Boy's & Girl's Club to host lessons/tournaments.
  3. You can host charity tournaments.
  4. Form a league that does public works on top of just playing pool. Maybe donate league dues to a local food bank.
  5. This one is probably heresy on this forum, but remove some tables to put in a dance floor or dining tables and put in a kitchen if you don't have one.
  6. Host tournaments with amateur and "pro" brackets. The amateur side gets something small (table time, a cheap stick, small dollar amount), while the "pro" side gets a good payout.
 
I will explain further how this is a demographics issue. In some respects, a poolroom’s viability comes down to momentary decisions.

Imagine a middle aged man who is in the 3rd twenty percentile in the demographics scale. He has got a decision to make about what he is going to do with his day. He is versatile and likes to do many things. He can go hit some pool balls. He can go golfing. He can go out on his boat. He can take his lady out to a nice restaurant. He is probably not a smoker. Pool loses in this scenario over and over. He can afford do other stuff that he has decided is more fun. Pool does not get this guy and probably never will.

Imagine a very young man who may be in his 2nd year in college, working on the side in a fast food restaurant. He is in the 5th twenty percentile of the demographics scale. He likes to shoot pool. He likes his X-box. He likes playing on his phone and fooling around on facebook. He likes to have a few beers with his buddies. He probably smokes. He does not have the same recreational options as the man described above because he does not have the resources. His choices are very different and in this scenario, pool wins over and over.

This is why the pool room clientele is heavily weighted with the lowest demographic. Then here comes the smoking ban. That changes the options for the young man. If he goes to the pool room, he can’t smoke. If he plays X-box, he can smoke. If he hangs out with his buddies in an apartment or in a back yard and has a beer, he can smoke. If he goes for a ride in the car with his girl, he can smoke. Now pool loses.
 
Paul Schofield said:
I will explain further how this is a demographics issue. In some respects, a poolroom’s viability comes down to momentary decisions.

Imagine a middle aged man who is in the 3rd twenty percentile in the demographics scale. He has got a decision to make about what he is going to do with his day. He is versatile and likes to do many things. He can go hit some pool balls. He can go golfing. He can go out on his boat. He can take his lady out to a nice restaurant. He is probably not a smoker. Pool loses in this scenario over and over. He can afford do other stuff that he has decided is more fun. Pool does not get this guy and probably never will.

Imagine a very young man who may be in his 2nd year in college, working on the side in a fast food restaurant. He is in the 5th twenty percentile of the demographics scale. He likes to shoot pool. He likes his X-box. He likes playing on his phone and fooling around on facebook. He likes to have a few beers with his buddies. He probably smokes. He does not have the same recreational options as the man described above because he does not have the resources. His choices are very different and in this scenario, pool wins over and over.

This is why the pool room clientele is heavily weighted with the lowest demographic. Then here comes the smoking ban. That changes the options for the young man. If he goes to the pool room, he can’t smoke. If he plays X-box, he can smoke. If he hangs out with his buddies in an apartment or in a back yard and has a beer, he can smoke. If he goes for a ride in the car with his girl, he can smoke. Now pool loses.
Click to expand...

He and his buddies and his girl can have a few pops at the poolhall, hit some balls, and (OMG) take a few steps outside (maybe even check Facebook on the phone while out there), and, you got it, have a smoke.
 
"Does anyone ever count the number of people LOST because of pool rooms being smoking? There are a lot of people who refuse to go to pool rooms because of the smoking."

the owner of my favorite room tried to tell me & lydia that the smoking ban had cut his business when we met him on our first trip there. i've no doubt that In The Short Term, he's right; he knows his numbers. but i pointed out to him that we wouldn't be there if there was a cigarette lit in the place, and he stopped and thought about it; he's no dummy, and he could see that we'd just run up a nice bill on food & drink and hours of time on a GC2 and the 3-cushion table, while the smokers were standing out front talking.

GrilledCheese has got it right. there is no way my girlfriend and i would go to the poolroom if there was smoking.

No Way.

if pool wants to dig itself out of the hole it's in, relying on a dying (literally) demographic is one sure way Not to do it.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top