Why some people will remain C/D players forever.

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
I made a thread a couple of years ago (I think) asking your opinions about why some people never progress at the game. I've had some time to think and observe people and I think I may have come up with some reasons.

I'm not a top player or an instructor, these are just some thoughts I've had regarding certain aspects of playing pool, that really helped me move forward skill-vise. I expect some of you to disagree, on some of these points, feel free to offer your opinions.

I feel the most important mental parts of pool are:
1. Visualize the shot, as clearly as possible, including tip placement, speed and aim.
2. Commiting 100% to the plan while down on the shot. I don't think the aiming system matters as much as the commitment to the aim you have chosen.

A lot of us learned to pocket balls from trial and error. Quite often this involves subconscious correction of erroneously picked aimpoints. Usually beginners aim shots too thickly (because they don't know how to correct for throw) and they rattle many of their shots in. They develop fear of these shots, and they start poke-stroking them, standing up mid-shot etc.

Naturally, people like this will never be very consistent at pocketing balls, and will especially fail under pressure, but there is a more important aspect, even than that. Because they will be adjusting, steering etc their strokes will never become pure, and their speed control will be extremely bad. You can recognize such a player by seing what they do when they have a difficult shot. Usually they will let up on their stroke, not finish it or something similar, which to me shows that they are NOT commited to their chosen aim/plan. If you are truely commited then, your stroke should look the same! You may still miss the shot, but always finish the stroke correctly, and smoothly.

Some people never quite get over this phase of the game, and they remain stuck at a particular level (C usually). Once they get in stroke, their subconscious corrections time out nicely and they may run a rack or two, but usually it takes at least an hour for them to "warm up". I sometimes watch these people play and at the very last moment their eyes move away from the object ball, to the pocket or a point between the ball and the pocket, they will sometimes steer the shot as well. In almost every case they will move some part of their bodies during the shot (quite frequently the bridgehand is the major culprit). They will often deny that this is the case. I just watched a player like this yesterday, that I know a little bit, and I saw him do the same things he always has. Naturally he is clueless of what he is actually doing, and will not listen to any advice from anybody, and because he occationally will run a rack when the stars align, he thinks he's able to run racks at any time.

I remained stuck at a C level for some time, until I figured out these pieces of the puzzle, one by one, and I don't think I could have progressed without knowing WHY it was that I was inconsistent. I don't think table time alone could have gotten me further at that point. What I learned was this.

1. Pick an aim, tip placement and speed while standing up. Vividly visualize the stroke and the outcome.
2. While down on the ball I purify my tip position first, then the aim. I forget the tip position while stroking the last stroke, only concentrating on the aim and speed.
3. I try never to look at the pocket while down over the ball.
4. I try to hit every shot with the same, pure stroke, no matter what the difficulty is. If I feel any sort of tension in the arm, or an urge to get up off the shot, I stand back up. I focus more on the stroke itself, not the outcome. By doing that the outcome is always better. I still miss some tough shots, but at least I give myself the chance to pull the shot off.
5. The stroke is not over until the cue is fully extended and is resting on, or above the table. It is not "allowed" to look at the object ball until this part is completed. If I'm struggling I extend this pause even longer.

Naturally some people do not prioritize pool, and do not get enough time to practice etc..The people I talk about are pool hall regulars who should be better, but somehow aren't.
 
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I think that a lot of league and pool hall regulars don't care about getting better. It is social time to hang out, have a few drinks, and have some fun. People will improve and play to their natural ability fairly quick, after that it takes hard work and a desire to improve. Not everyone wants to put in the work or has the desire. Having fun is most important.

For me, improving is the fun part.
 
C, D forever

I think that a lot of league and pool hall regulars don't care about getting better. It is social time to hang out, have a few drinks, and have some fun. People will improve and play to their natural ability fairly quick, after that it takes hard work and a desire to improve. Not everyone wants to put in the work or has the desire. Having fun is most important.

For me, improving is the fun part.

I see a few reasons...

Players go out to socialize rather than to play well.

Players make alcohol a priority over improving.

Many players (especially women) have been convinced that they can't get better.

Many players either have never thought of getting lessons or think (incorrectly) that lessons cost an arm and a leg.
 
all great points, but if you're talking about C/D players, I think it goes to a more fundamental understanding (or lack thereof) of the game.
I have said for years that the thing that traps many players from ever progressing is the league reliance on a ball count format. This gets players, when they are beginners, to focus on getting ball count so they don't lose 10-0 or 10-1. They never learn to break balls out, let alone think of HOW and WHEN to brak balls out. They won't shoot the shot at the beginning of a rack that has some risk involved but if executed will allow them to run the rack out. They are taught by their teammates and by the league format to simply pick off the ducks and the open balls, and then to avoid fouling, they must hit their tied up ball, efectively breaking up the clusters for their opponents. I have played with and seen many players over the years that simply can't overcome this mindset due to the ball count pressure they feel. That's why I much prefer the BCA tournament format of a race to 11 - you just play to win the game, not to worry if you lose 10-0 or win 10-0
 
all great points, but if you're talking about C/D players, I think it goes to a more fundamental understanding (or lack thereof) of the game.
I have said for years that the thing that traps many players from ever progressing is the league reliance on a ball count format. This gets players, when they are beginners, to focus on getting ball count so they don't lose 10-0 or 10-1. They never learn to break balls out, let alone think of HOW and WHEN to brak balls out. They won't shoot the shot at the beginning of a rack that has some risk involved but if executed will allow them to run the rack out. They are taught by their teammates and by the league format to simply pick off the ducks and the open balls, and then to avoid fouling, they must hit their tied up ball, efectively breaking up the clusters for their opponents. I have played with and seen many players over the years that simply can't overcome this mindset due to the ball count pressure they feel. That's why I much prefer the BCA tournament format of a race to 11 - you just play to win the game, not to worry if you lose 10-0 or win 10-0


I absolutely agree with that! Pick off a ball and leave a messy table to avoid lob sided scores. The team format in general, mostly competitive teams that are looking to 'manage handicapts' is also a factor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Some people play pool, other people are "Pool Players".

Yeah, exactly. I think the initial premise is flawed. It implies that for the most part people who play pool have a desire to improve, when in reality, its just us extremists. The rest of the world couldn't care less.

Any time (few as they may have been) that I went bowling I never considered trying to improve.

Same for scrabble for that matter.

The people who develop a passion for pool are only a very small percentage of those who enjoy playing socially.
 
The 3 KEY things for C/D players to improve are;

1. Stroke mechanics (shoulder drop, wrist turn, chicken wing, bad stance, etc. leads to poor shooting) Just hard to overcome poor mechanics in any sport.

2. Alignment to shot and/or not staying down on the shot.

3. Not learning or understanding the tangent line (follow, stop, stun, draw)


I believe many C/D players want to get better. They practice, they are upset they miss shots, or blow easy run outs. Always asking for advice (not always getting the right advice though)

Without the above 3, talking about finding the "key" ball when playing 8 ball just does not work, nor breaking out clusters early in the rack.

Plus, they will not be able to think 3 balls ahead either. So, strategy, speed control, pattern play, safeties, banking, kicking, jumping, etc. needs to take a back seat until they have some level of skill to the first 3, otherwise, learning patterns means zilch if you can't stroke a straight in shot on the 8ball, or you keep lining up incorrectly, or you don't know exactly where the cue ball is going after you hit it.

So, they either need to find an instructor, or go find a good player that can explain it in a manner they understand. And assuming the player can notice any "gaffes" in the stroke and know how to correct it. But this is not a 15 minute fix, and thus how many good players want to spend several hours with someone ? So, if you have no friends that are good enough or willing enough to work with you for several hours, you need to find someone that will.
 
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I see a few reasons...

Players go out to socialize rather than to play well.

Players make alcohol a priority over improving.

Many players (especially women) have been convinced that they can't get better.

Many players either have never thought of getting lessons or think (incorrectly) that lessons cost an arm and a leg.

Many people don't know what it is to be better. They shoot until they miss (often from a hard position, so 'not their fault'). People who shoot longer are just luckier.

Thank you kindly.
 
i think that most c/d players get struck because of poor fundamentals
due to no training/instruction and no practice
 
I think the reason that a LOT of people NEVER improve is because they are too arrogant to accept advice or instruction because they think they know it all.

I play a guy every Sunday and usually beat him like a drum. He is rated as an "A" player in the tournaments and he refuses to listen to what anyone says when they suggest something to him. I played him for five hours yesterday and I think I beat him 5 games to every one of his.

Whenever the subject of improving his game comes up, he starts textbook talking and changing the subject and gets really defensive.

I just shrug my shoulders and go on beating him. Occasionally, I will see him changing things little by little once he sees what he is doing doesn't work and what others are doing does.

I'm the first person who will accept advice and knowledge...if you can show me something to improve my game, I'm all ears.

Aloha.
 
Some people aren't that coordinated and have a low potential ceiling based on their physical skills. I also think some people just don't see the balls correctly and don't have the ability to visualize the angles or "see" shots in their head.

Or put simply - you don't have to be good at something to enjoy doing it!
 
I think it is about will. Either you have the fire/passion to improve or you don't. Personally, I need that fire to improve or the game wouldn't be enjoyable to me.
 
yeah these problems are problems that players at all levels face..

all great points, but if you're talking about C/D players, I think it goes to a more fundamental understanding (or lack thereof) of the game.
I have said for years that the thing that traps many players from ever progressing is the league reliance on a ball count format. This gets players, when they are beginners, to focus on getting ball count so they don't lose 10-0 or 10-1. They never learn to break balls out, let alone think of HOW and WHEN to brak balls out. They won't shoot the shot at the beginning of a rack that has some risk involved but if executed will allow them to run the rack out. They are taught by their teammates and by the league format to simply pick off the ducks and the open balls, and then to avoid fouling, they must hit their tied up ball, efectively breaking up the clusters for their opponents. I have played with and seen many players over the years that simply can't overcome this mindset due to the ball count pressure they feel. That's why I much prefer the BCA tournament format of a race to 11 - you just play to win the game, not to worry if you lose 10-0 or win 10-0

Yeah the observations that he was making about the c and d players are applicable to ALL players at any level.

I was doing the same things while playing at short stop level.

Acknowledging and recognizing these things can help you to PERFORM at a higher level, but you still need the requisite experience and knowledge and most importantly, the desire, to improve skill wise.

Then of course, there is the necessity to have the innate ability as well.

Some people that are c and d level don't progress because they are simply incapable of progressing and that's as good as they're capable of being.

IMO, those are few and far between and most people should be capable of at least attaining a B level playing ability.

Jaden
 
The main things I notice are

• Not really interested in improving, any skill they picked up is accidental, via repetition,
and that's their gameplan forever. Not gonna pick up a book, visit a website, or listen
to more than 30 seconds worth of instruction.

• Afraid to try new things... e.g. they get used to hitting a certain shot with low outside,
terrified to try it with high inside because they know they'll miss.
They won't risk losing or even missing one ball, for the sake of self-improvement.

• Fundamentally not smart... they don't get basic physics. I don't mean formulas and stuff,
I just mean simple concepts like... hitting a ball extra hard won't make it teleport through another ball, if the pocket is barely blocked.

• Can't admit their own shortcomings or take advice. Sometimes this gets really irrational.
A classic beginner scene: A guy misses a ball by 3 inches, never even hits the nipple.
"ah crap... Too hard." ...Well, no, you missed shot, nothing to do with speed.
For some weird reason, they cannot admit missing by aiming wrong, or bad stroke.
They can only admit to "I hit it too hard", implying they did everything right but the
stupid ball/table wouldn't cooperate at their chosen speed.

• Bad attitude / mindset. *****es about everything, gets down easily, calls everything
a bad roll even when it's nothing to do with luck, blames the cue, the cue ball,
the rules, the opponent gets so lucky, etc. It seems like these are also the guys
I see rushing all the time, which is another mental issue, it's like they're worried
that they can't make a ball unless they let their subconscious take over by shooting fast.
 
Unfortunately, some folks are born with an incurable disease called "Notverygood-itis".

I think what holds people back can be both physical and mental.



I'll talk about one of the aspects of mental here. Confidence


When it comes to confidence there are 4 levels of thinking... I,can't, I could, I will, and I can.


I can't is the worst stage. people who think I can't feel hopeless until they see the light... they will give up trying. If they want something real bad and they think "I can't" then they get depressed. It is a bad mindset to get into. The enemy for I cant thinkers is blame. They always have something to blame and it seems logical to them but most of the time, such as your theory on people having "Notverygood-itis" it is just a false belief that is holding them back. There is no such thing as "Notverygood-itis" so if you believe this then you need to change that thought so that you can move on into "I could" thinking.
 
I made a thread a couple of years ago (I think) asking your opinions about why some people never progress at the game.


Biggest reason - I believe - is that so many people are playing with wrong or bad fundamentals.
I see and play a lot of people almost every day and even the good players are playing with horrible fundamentals, especially the stroke, more so than the grip, bridge or stance.
If they'd humble themselves and work on this they'd get much better.
 
Some people aren't that coordinated and have a low potential ceiling based on their physical skills. I also think some people just don't see the balls correctly and don't have the ability to visualize the angles or "see" shots in their head.

Or put simply - you don't have to be good at something to enjoy doing it!

Some people may have limitations put on them by genetics or various injuries etc, but I think a lot of people are limiting themselves unnecessarily because they are simply to stubborn to listen to anybody or try something new.

I do think that some people have trouble seeing the angles, which I think is due to learning the wrong way to shoot certain shots. It takes a lot of work to unlearn certain habits, and it might never happen.

You are right about the game being enjoyable at any level, but I know some people that would be a lot happier if they were just a little bit better. Winning the weekly tournament just once would literally make their year. Sadly, that is not going to happen until they change what they are doing.
 
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