Why was Mark Griffin/CSI Crucified and Hopkins/SBE Get A Free Pass?

watchez

watchez

What time is it?
Silver Member
There was much uproar about how the added money was handled/advertised for the Swanee tournament and Mark Griffin and CSI took quite a bashing.

But here we have the '2015 Open 10-Ball Professional Players Championship' and it is a whopping $3,000 added in prize money (if they get 64 players).

$500 entry fee x 64 players = $32,000

PRIZE FUND:
1st: $10,000 Guaranteed & Trophy
2nd: $5000
3rd: $2500
4th: $2000
5-6th: $1750 ea.
7-8th: $1500 ea.
9-12th: $1250 ea.
13-16th: $1000 ea.


(based on field of 64 players)

Total Prize Pool $35,000

$3,000 Added and it is a Professional Pool Players Championship? :confused: Shouldn't there be some guidelines before someone can slap such titles onto their events?

This is a Mosconi Cup points event - one of the few on big tables. Again it is $3,000 added. Isn't Turning Stone $25,000 added and that wasn't a Mosconi Cup point event :confused: :confused: :confused:

And let's not leave out the Women -- Women's Open 9 Ball Professional Players Championship

$300 Entry Fee x 32 = $9,600

PRIZE FUND:
BASED ON 32 PLAYERS:
1st: $3000 Guaranteed & Trophy
2nd: $2000
3rd-4th: $1500 ea.
5-8th: $1000 ea.


(based on full field of 32 players)

So this Professional Championship Event is $2400 added. :boring2:

But wait - there's more. We also have the One Pocket Professional Players Championship.

32 players x $225 entry fee = $7,200

PRIZE FUND:
1st: $1600
2nd: $1200
3rd/4th: $800 ea.
5-8th: $500 ea.

(based on full field of 32 players)

$6,400 Prize Pool ------ so this Professional tournament not only doesn't have added money but they are taking out $800 in prize money.


And if you want to play in the one pocket event at the SBE along with the 10 ball, there is a chance that if you might have matches scheduled at the same time and be forced to forfeit one of them. IMPORTANT: If a conflict in match times does arise, you will be forced to choose one event to play and one to forfeit.

The only exception is if a player makes the final 8 players in two events. In this case, we will reschedule matches to allow the player to possibly win both events.

It continues to amaze me how smart (ie dumb) pool is.


p.s. Oh I forgot.....Your entry fee includes a 4-day Weekend Pass to the Super Billiards Expo, so even if you get eliminated in the first round you can still visit the Expo all weekend! Well that makes all the difference in the world.
 
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The expo events have been this way forever. Maybe this type of total payout versus total entry fees is what is necessary for an event to run without constant issues, and for decades, not a 1 yr or 2 yr and done event.
 
I believe Alan use to add 25K to the pro event and then one year he dropped it to 8K for whatever reason. EVERYONE (95%) still came to play. Now what would you expect a non philanthropist to do next? That's what he did.

When you are one of the few games in town and now we are down to a very few, you can pretty much do what you want. Alan makes a ton of $$ off the amateurs and vendors every year. The pros playing at the SBE are pretty much a non factor to him and his bottom line. (220K+ clear each year I'd guess)
 
Well, I think the criticism of CSI was that they suggested a certain amount being added and some people complained that it was misleading because of administrative fees or greens fees or whatever.

What you quoted for the SBE does not seem to face the same problem (although the shortfall on the one-pocket event might qualify).

I think it is a fair issue to raise that players should clearly know how much money is being added, and what fees are coming out, before they decide to commit to the event. It is, of course, another question whether the amount added money is "enough", but if the financials are clear then it is up to the player to decide.

I should mention that I have tremendous respect for Mark and CSI and I actually don't remember the thread well enough to know if the financials were sufficently disclosed or not.

Gideon<-----Remembers discussions about this from back when Grady was running events with "real money added" (i.e., no deductions)
 
Nostroke said:
I believe Alan use to add 25K to the pro event and then one year he dropped it to 8K for whatever reason. EVERYONE (95%) still came to play. Now what would you expect a non philanthropist to do next? That's what he did.

When you are one of the few games in town and now we are down to a very few, you can pretty much do what you want. Alan makes a ton of $$ off the amateurs and vendors every year. The pros playing at the SBE are pretty much a non factor to him and his bottom line. (220K+ clear each year I'd guess)
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I'm going to hold the 2015 Professional Pool Players Spot Shot Championships in my basement next month. $400 entry fee. 32 players

$4000 for first
$2000 for second
$1000 for third

Oh and you get to pet my dog if you come over.

And to Mark Griffin --- what you learn here is just don't state any money added, then the public and the players don't care if you even take money out of the prize pool.
 
The difference is pretty simple to me. At SBE, they collect $32,000 from players and pay out $35,000. At the Swanee, they collected $14,760 from the players and paid out $13,840.

SBE doesn't claim anything about "added money" just simply said "$10k 1st place guaranteed." On the other hand, Swanee claimed "$4k added" but in reality they "took" a registration fee then "added" the money right back (which is basically a wash and honestly pretty deceiving).

IMO, SBE does it right. Give me the payouts, tell me what's guaranteed for first and how much I gotta pay. Make your money however you please but this is the most honest way to me. Also, they don't charge late fees and put them directly in their pocket.
 
Steve,

Thought the money problems at the Swanee were caused by a lack of perceived clarity regarding where the "added" money went. Players paying for the TD's hotel room, travel expenses and other tournament expenses were not declared on the flyer. Understand why you support CSI in this matter. Want them to do many more events. I'm bored.

These are two completely different events. No where does Allen declare he's adding money to the event. Just another event where we, the players, contest for each others entry fees. Sad state of affairs. You did notice Allen is potentially losing $3000 even with a full field? Also notice there is no registration fee deducted from the entry. Think that was a point of contention with the Swanee event.

The point I stated in an earlier thread on the Swanee is NO ONE is above being called out for an error. Guess that includes me as well. Having a hard time believing that :eek: :sorry: :grin: . As always, this is JMHO.

On a personal note, will you be playing any events at this years BCAPL Nationals? Looks like I'm playing the 9 Ball Challenge, Masters Doubles and probably the Mens Masters Singles. No team events. Haven't been to Vegas enough this Winter to qualify.

Lyn
 
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What's your point and what does it matter to you? Bash an event before it starts. Real nice.
 
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cleary said:
The difference is pretty simple to me. At SBE, they collect $32,000 from players and pay out $35,000. At the Swanee, they collected $14,760 from the players and paid out $13,840.

SBE doesn't claim anything about "added money" just simply said "$10k 1st place guaranteed." On the other hand, Swanee claimed "$4k added" but in reality they "took" a registration fee then "added" the money right back (which is basically a wash and honestly pretty deceiving).

IMO, SBE does it right. Give me the payouts, tell me what's guaranteed for first and how much I gotta pay. Make your money however you please but this is the most honest way to me. Also, they don't charge late fees and put them directly in their pocket.
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Pretty much my exact take on it.

It's sad that the added money is so low but at least they aren't being deceptive in the least.
 
Andrew C. nailed it.. When added money isn't even really there, how the hell can someone really consider it added.. Many of the amateur tours do this, it's laughable. At least Hopkins actually really adds something!
 
All this conversation about added money would be moot if we had more tournaments with added money. But the fact of the matter is that added money events are maybe a thing of the past? Look, the strength of pool right now isn't in tournament pro matches, it is in leagues and player participation on a grand scale. I have trouble running a weekly tournament in my pool room but I have leagues 3 times weekly and I'm adding a 4th night. I think if you polled rooms you'd find this is becoming commonplace.
 
I agree with certain parts of everyone's posts here.

Regarding the money, just be honest and transparent. If you are going to publish pay outs, fees, added money just be honest. If you are a promoter and have decided to publicly discuss your profit / loss, fine, do it but just be honest. But please don't lament about how hard it is to make money. Save it...

What won't fly is when you try to be deceptive about collecting fees then calling that added money. Or when you say at the last minute that the added money was based on 512 players and only 62 players show up. That's an insult to the collective intelligent of the players who just want a venue to compete and have a chance to make a few dollars. Don't be shady...

Regarding "World" or "International" titles, as Watchez mentioned, don't be the promoter guy who adds $3,000 to an event and use the word "World" on the trophy..
 
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Hungarian said:
I agree with certain parts of everyone's posts here.



Regarding "World" or "International" titles, as Watchez mentioned, don't be the promoter guy who adds $3,000 to an event and use the word "World" on the trophy..
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Unless you/we are willing to have a 'governing body for US Pool' or revamp the BCA and pay them a sanction fee and have them set standards, protect dates etc ala the WPA who everyone seems to hate, there will continue to be inappropriate titles.

I use to have Stickball games in my backyard for the "Championship of the World" all the time
 
I think the Women's event has $2400 added

The expo entry to use the venue is worth good money. That's where the hustlers can gamble and cover the trip. The tourney is all bonus compared to the scores. :-(
 
iusedtoberich said:
The expo events have been this way forever. Maybe this type of total payout versus total entry fees is what is necessary for an event to run without constant issues, and for decades, not a 1 yr or 2 yr and done event.
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You said that right. Try planning an event and getting it to make money, its near impossible and hinges on the door being good and no one really wants to help you spread the word so....

You have put out all that money.....and if you dont have a lock on getting people in, it was out of the goodness of your heart...great industry cooperation.

Unless the event starts small and builds its own following over time its likely not work out for a few years and thats a lot of money for someone private to pay out.
 
Watchez...I think within the next 2-3 years you're going to see NO MONEY ADDED tournaments only...at least for the pro/semi-pro events. I wouldn't be surprised if this moved over to the amateur side of tournament pool as well. :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

watchez said:
And to Mark Griffin --- what you learn here is just don't state any money added, then the public and the players don't care if you even take money out of the prize pool.
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watchez said:
... This is a Mosconi Cup points event - one of the few on big tables. Again it is $3,000 added. Isn't Turning Stone $25,000 added and that wasn't a Mosconi Cup point event :confused: :confused: :confused: ...
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As to why the Turning Stone event in January, 2015 was not a Mosconi Cup points event, I imagine it was just a timing thing. Matchroom had not worked out how it was all going to be done prior to that event, plus I think the event was filled quite a bit in advance.

The Turning Stone event in August, 2015 is one of the MC points events.
 
The pros aren't a major draw to the event. There are very few spectators at SBE. I will watch a set at lunch but otherwise I'm playing. It's free to watch with paid entry to the event. Alan makes nothing on them. I'd be shocked if they pro event draws enough to cover the 3 000 added. Much less the costs for the arena and tables. This like all SBE events will fill up. Alan does a great job with the event. Thousands of players and vendors look forward to it every year....27 days and counting
 
Scott Lee said:
Watchez...I think within the next 2-3 years you're going to see NO MONEY ADDED tournaments only...at least for the pro/semi-pro events. I wouldn't be surprised if this moved over to the amateur side of tournament pool as well. :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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Only if pool continues to be as disorganized as it is now. It really isn't that tough to fix, but everyone wants to do things differently.
 
mikeyfrost said:
I think the Women's event has $2400 added

The expo entry to use the venue is worth good money. That's where the hustlers can gamble and cover the trip. The tourney is all bonus compared to the scores. :-(
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You are correct - sorry for my math error.
 
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