Will Mosconi

olauzon

olauzon

HANK THE TANK
Silver Member
i just finished reading the hustler and the champ. i don't know how many books i have read about this uber great era of our sport, but there is one thing in particular i have yet to completely grasp. most writers, by all rights, glorifies mosconi not only in terms of his superb skills but also as a man of honor and responsibility. nobody lets it be untold that he was stubborn and grumpy to evilness; not at all a perfect persona. however, there was half a decade or more when he was on the road playing exhibitions and rarely ever came home to his family. is this even remotely possible for a man of his told dignity? what is it that i'm missing about this man? am i just reading falsely between the lines?

any shed of light is appreciated.

cheers,

ps. azb searches came out empty on the specifics.
 
I think you're on the wrong track, Olauzon. Stubborn and grumpy? Definitely - but that's quite some distance from being evil. If he was on the road for long stretches doing exhibitions, it was only out of love - not indifference - for his family, because it certainly wasn't out of love for pool. He was not generous with his knowledge of the game - Paul Newman was his only known student, and he was generously paid for that - and you can find people who will agree with you to the extent that he was not a nice guy. But I think you're overstating the case. GF
 
George Fels said:
I think you're on the wrong track, Olauzon. Stubborn and grumpy? Definitely - but that's quite some distance from being evil. If he was on the road for long stretches doing exhibitions, it was only out of love - not indifference - for his family, because it certainly wasn't out of love for pool. He was not generous with his knowledge of the game - Paul Newman was his only known student, and he was generously paid for that - and you can find people who will agree with you to the extent that he was not a nice guy. But I think you're overstating the case. GF
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George,

Many years ago, you did an article in BD entitled "An Audience of One"... it was a great article about how Willie would handpick his opponents... lol... if someone has a copy of that, please post it! I think it was about Eddie Robin...

Willie a nice guy? Never. However when I was like 11 or 12, I got to play a few games of 8 ball with him at a Boy's Club thing that he did - it was like playing an old crusty 4th grade substitute teacher that sat at the desk and never said anything to anybody all day, just sort of was in their own little world... that was Willie. :p .. he really didn't warm up to any of the other kids either... I heard that he was only there because of a deal they made on his signature line of equipment... lol... he was thrilled! lol

Of course Willie lacked people skills, but what the hell, he was a pool player - and probably the best damn one I've ever seen!
 
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George Fels said:
Stubborn and grumpy? Definitely - but that's quite some distance from being evil. GF
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george, sorry, evilness was not the right word to use. i would not doubt any of what facts or memories people have of mr. mosconi. there just seems to me to be something mysterious, not necessarily bad, perhaps not well known and undocumented, about him that i intended to query about. being out that much and long, away from the people he loved doing something he quite didn't like, that is some statement. i bet there was/is many shrinks that would have loved to analyze the psyche of mr. mosconi.
 
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willie mosconi on the road

anybody know billiy sanders or his brother from billings, mt and arizona? seems he traveled with willie for brunswick. he shed some light for me in a private converstaion i wouldn't share without him okaying it. anybody in billings shoot with him sny? he was a free teacher at one of the rooms in billings(the one without the ugly burgundy red cloth).
 
Blackjack said:
it was like playing an old crusty 4th grade substitute teacher that sat at the desk and never said anything to anybody all day, just sort of was in their own little world. I heard that he was only there because of a deal they made on his signature line of equipment... lol... he was thrilled!
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that one isn't hard to picture :D
 
I knew Willie pretty well, probably as well as anyone in the modern era. He was not the easiest man to warm up to. When he was doing his thing, he wanted and expected COMPLETE attentiveness from his audience. He was the MASTER and required all present to honor and respect him.

I think he may have been burned out from an entire lifetime spent in the limelight pushing balls around. He couldn't afford to retire, thus he forged on well into his 70's. Jean Balukas had the sense to get away from it after 20+ years. Willie expected everything to be just so when he made an appearance. If anything wasn't to his liking you would hear about it loud and clear.

Saying all this, Willie was an honorable man, keeping his agreements and showing up for all his engagements. If there was a grade for attendance, he would get very high marks. He was a trooper! He was also quite honorable about all financial dealings and expected the same from others. Some of his bitterness may have come from broken promises. Privately he would relate stories of those who had done him wrong.

One on one, Willie was quite polite and considerate of others! Yes, it's true! He did not interrupt in converations and would make his statements articulately and matter of factly. He was an intelligent and proud man, who had a liftetime love affair with his wife Flora. I enjoyed the conversations I had with him. He even showed flashes of a dormant sense of humor after a glass of wine or two.

Once years ago, we taped a long interview I made with him that would be a classic today. At the end the videographer discovered that his camera batteries had been too weak and it did not record. This after 45 minutes or more of great conversation. Needless to say Willie and I were too frustrated to try again. I regret that the most.
 
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How's the book?

olauzon said:
i just finished reading the hustler and the champ. i don't know how many books i have read about this uber great era of our sport, but there is one thing in particular i have yet to completely grasp. most writers, by all rights, glorifies mosconi not only in terms of his superb skills but also as a man of honor and responsibility. nobody lets it be untold that he was stubborn and grumpy to evilness; not at all a perfect persona. however, there was half a decade or more when he was on the road playing exhibitions and rarely ever came home to his family. is this even remotely possible for a man of his told dignity? what is it that i'm missing about this man? am i just reading falsely between the lines?

any shed of light is appreciated.

cheers,

ps. azb searches came out empty on the specifics.
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Not to highjack your thread but did you like the book. I just got it but I'm about 3 books behind and won't get to it for a month or two. Just curious?

Thanks in advance! :D
 
joe, i thuroughly enjoyed every page of the book - definately one of the better 'mosconi' books i've read. personally i see fats being more interesting as a person but this is more of a mosconi bio.

thank you gents for the posts.

cheers,
 
Thanks

olauzon said:
joe, i thuroughly enjoyed every page of the book - definately one of the better 'mosconi' books i've read. personally i see fats being more interesting as a person but this is more of a mosconi bio.

thank you gents for the posts.

cheers,
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I have never read about Mosconi, so I am looking forward to it. I'vew read a lot about Fats so I hope I enjoy this as much.
 
I read this book, and the Kid Delicious book back to back. Both very enjoyable. I'd like to see more of Danny B. and hope that he is able to conquer his demons and play more. He has a lot to offer pool as well, especially as a salesman...Tom
 
work ethic

I never knew Willie and only saw one of his exhibitions, but as I read this thread it occurred to me to bring up the idea that Willie and others of his generation were likely to have a very strong work ethic. It is well known that he really had no love for the game of pool and treated it as a job. For him to travel around the country giving exhibitions was not unlike having the job of a traveling salesman. He was well paid by Brunswick and gave an honest day's work for a day's pay. At least that's how I see it. He and other great players like Jimmy Caras, worked hard for their salaries from Brunswick and surely approached their travels around the country very differently from the way a road player of that time period would have operated.
 
jay helfert said:
He was also quite honorable about all financial dealings and expected the same from others. Some of his bitterness may have come from broken promises. Privately he would relate stories of those who had done him wrong.
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Did Brunswick collect the money for his exhibitions and then pay him or did he sometimes have to collect the money himself?
 
alstl said:
Did Brunswick collect the money for his exhibitions and then pay him or did he sometimes have to collect the money himself?
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Good question. I think it was some of both. I believe Brunswick paid Willie and Jimmy a salary to be good will ambassadors for the sport. He had an agent that booked him for exhibitions, and he typically got $125 to $150 for the day. He was not required to say or do anything special to promote Brunswick, just show up and play great, which he did every day. And wear a jacket with the Brunswick logo. He also appeared in print advertisements for them.

He might say that these were the best tables in the world if someone asked about them. But he also might complain if he didn't like the way they were set up, or the lighting or the cloth, or anything else. He carried his own set of balls to use in his exhibitions.

I seriously doubt that Willie got stiffed very often because with him it was always pay up front. If he didn't have the money there wasn't going to be any exhibition. The proprietor got the gate if there was any admission charged.
 
Besides being a wonderfull player, it seems that a lot of opinions about Willie Mosconi are not always positive. However, I always remember a story that my dad has told me a few times. He was taking a flight from San Fransico I believe, and guess who was sitting in the seat next to him? He was quite surprised and told Mr. Mosconi that it was a pleasure to meet him. He says that they talked the whole trip and Mosconi was very nice to him. He even invited my dad to dinner, but he had a prior engagment with my mom. :eek: When my dad told me this story, I really did not know much about Mosconi. It seems that most of the things I hear about him are quite different from the experience my dad had. It seems that maybe Mosconi was a certain way at the pool table, but not that bad away from the game. I could be wrong, but my dad had a good experience with him.
 
cochranes in sf

Too bad Grady is no longer posting here; I too, have heard some negative comments regarding Mr. Moscone....one was that he was either tossed out or banned from Cochrane's in SF back in the old days....maybe Regas can ask Poker Paul about it....I know when I watched some of his old TV exhibitions with Minnesota Fats, he didn't seem to be enjoying it much...
 
My Impressions

I played Willie in a exhibition match in San Diego at the Billiard Tavern, an upscale place with 33 tables, closed circuit TV, raised bar and eating, with an indoor fountain in the bar area. They also had 4 tables in private rooms that were mostly used for gambling. The exhibition table was a 10k with a 3,500 dollar chandilier over it. Small stadium seating for railbirds. This was back in 68 or 69.

Willie was a sportsman, a lover of the purity of the sport. He was sociable, but I got the impression he was mostly introverted. He was an expert and knew he was, and expected the respect for it, which most anyone would.

But to survive in the Pool world 50 years where you meet a wide array of players who may or may not be reputable is bound to have an affect on you. Sometimes in the Pool World, it is not possible to turn the other cheek, and the mere demands of the sport demands that 'you hold your own'.

I hold more respect for a true sportsman of the sport than a hustler. Hustling involves lying, deceit behind an honorable facade. Most hustlers I have known, spill it over to other parts of their life, not just on the table, no matter how entertaining they might be. A lot of that 'entertainment' is just to suck you in.

So when considering both types as Human Beings, I would go with the sportsman every time, but probably still laugh at the hustler.
 
Lance Saunders was the player, not Billy. Billy is a little older, but still not old enough to have "traveled" with Mosconi. I have a rare copy of Billy's "book", and it makes no mention of Mosconi.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

woodyosborne said:
anybody know billiy sanders or his brother from billings, mt and arizona? seems he traveled with willie for brunswick. he shed some light for me in a private converstaion i wouldn't share without him okaying it. anybody in billings shoot with him sny? he was a free teacher at one of the rooms in billings(the one without the ugly burgundy red cloth).
Click to expand...
 
Snapshot9 said:
I hold more respect for a true sportsman of the sport than a hustler. Hustling involves lying, deceit behind an honorable facade. Most hustlers I have known, spill it over to other parts of their life, not just on the table, no matter how entertaining they might be. A lot of that 'entertainment' is just to suck you in.

So when considering both types as Human Beings, I would go with the sportsman every time, but probably still laugh at the hustler.
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Tap tap tap!
 
I second that

Marvel said:
Tap tap tap!
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Yes, this is a good description of what is wrong with hustling.....But you will agree, hustling was glorified as something admirable in many movies of the past....not just pool movies, but movies about "grifters" (which seems to me on a parallel with "hustling"....such as "The Sting".....
 
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