WNT and WPA. Frazer says…
- Thread starter jbart65
- Start date
No one can deny Filler's talent or argue with SJM about his accomplishments thus far, but he has not been as consistent as I expected the past few years.
Sometimes he looks invincible, then loses and is knocked out by someone he should beat handily. He hasn't won a WNT event since the World Pool Masters and initial UK Open in 2022.
Yes, he's won some big WPA events since then, though the most recent were with watered-down fields.
Eager to see how he plays after this feud ends. My guess is he is, in fact, a pool lifer like SVB and Earl. Time will tell.
Sometimes he looks invincible, then loses and is knocked out by someone he should beat handily. He hasn't won a WNT event since the World Pool Masters and initial UK Open in 2022.
Yes, he's won some big WPA events since then, though the most recent were with watered-down fields.
Eager to see how he plays after this feud ends. My guess is he is, in fact, a pool lifer like SVB and Earl. Time will tell.
Sorry I got a little short with you. I think we basically agree that Josh has many worlds left to conquer, but his performance to date is hard to ignore.
Badpenguin
Well-known member
Filler was named Mosconi Cup MVP as a rookie in 2017.
It's 2025.
He's won three China Opens, two DCC 9-balls, a U.S. Open and a World 9-Ball since 2017.
This isn't 2-5 years. We're coming up on a decade.
Badpenguin
Well-known member
I have a hard time considering the results of the last 2-3 years of the DCC 9 ball to even be legitimate. When you have players dropping out and forfeiting because they are playing 12-24 hours straight, it is no longer valid to me. There is no way that Filler won those by playing against the best at their best, ditto with the world 8 ball. If this were the matter of a jury, I have reasonable doubt.
That is so true. All the more reason, at least for me, that his absence is missed on the WNT.
On that basis, you might have to throw out the results of the last fifteen DCC nine ball events, which have routinely gone into the very wee hours of the morning on the final day. Similarly, these races to 120 that SVB has won routinely go into the wee hours of the morning day after day. Am I to discount those on the same basis? Well, I choose not to, because Shane has met the challenges placed in front of him, and that is the only measure of greatness. Failure to beat those who voluntarily choose not to show up to an event is not a mark against a champion's record.
I see you are a proud member of the growing asterisk committee that has been forming of late among the Filler haters. SVB won his only World 9-ball while the best player in the world at the time, Fedor Gorst, sat because of a WPA ban against Russians. Do you have an asterisk next to that one, too? When Chua won the Hanoi Open with about fifteen super-elite players sitting out to avoid the WPA ban, did you put an asterisk there?
It's sad that you cannot recognize generational greatness when you see it. Which other of the champions of this generation do you take lightly? Today's players are breaking and running out on 4" pockets at a higher rate than the players of yesteryear did on 4 5/8" pockets. Think about that if you don't think that today's crop of elite players is offering the greatest pool ever played.
What other reasons can you come up with for us to devalue the accomplishments of Filler, one of the greatest cueists the world has ever seen?
Badpenguin
Well-known member
I would probably have to agree with you on that. Particularly if it devolved to chemical warfare.
I think you may be either overreacting or oversensitive, I wouldn't call myself a Filler hater in the least. He is one of my favorite players. It may be simply that I don't see things the way you do, or I don't see the entire picture that you are seeing. Just because someone isn't as convinced as you, or has different criteria than you, doesn't mean they are a hater. To say so is a bit extreme.
Well, then, I am probably being oversensitive here, for which I apologize. The regular bashing of Filler on this site in recent months had really rubbed me the wrong way, and if I have mistaken you for one of the many constantly looking for a way to devalue Josh's accomplishments, that's my bad.
You are an excellent poster on AZB, and I look forward to future debates and collaborations with you.
Badpenguin
Well-known member
Following up:
Doggin It had another show yesterday to talk about Frazer's comments regarding the WPA and WNT.
Jayson Shaw was in the chat. He had some things to say.
(Interestingly, the comments of pros on Doggin It podcasts don't show up in the chat feed along with regular listeners. So no trace left unless you watch it and see the type scroll. DogginIt must have a backdoor for the pros).
Premier League. Shaw said he, FSR, Alcaide, Chua, Yap, Ko Brothers, SVB, Kaci, Duong and Sky should get invites. Didn't mention Gorst, but he's a lock too. Bet Mickey Kause is as well.
"I am sure it will come down to who is not afraid to be banned by the WPA LOL," Shaw posted.
"There will be players missing this year, it's just going to happen. In lots of big events. Just not PLP."
"Unless it gets sorted then we stay the same LOL."
"Listen, you ready for this guys. I spoke to WPA. They said lot of players reached out and committed not playing in non-sanctioned events. And for doing that they let the players start playing in February."
"That's why some guys going to Vegas I think."
"They paid the $500 fine I bet."
"Whoever plays in the open event in Vegas that played Hanoi, well, that tells you all you need to know who paid and got back to playing early."
"That was straight from Ishaun."
"Maybe there is no dates until Vegas happens. Then see who plays."
"Maybe she [Frazer] waits see how [many] jump ship, then announce who they pick for invitational events lol."
"I'm just coming up with shit. Have a lot of time on my hands."
"I think it will get settled. So we can all do what we want. Play pool."
Doggin It had another show yesterday to talk about Frazer's comments regarding the WPA and WNT.
Jayson Shaw was in the chat. He had some things to say.
(Interestingly, the comments of pros on Doggin It podcasts don't show up in the chat feed along with regular listeners. So no trace left unless you watch it and see the type scroll. DogginIt must have a backdoor for the pros).
Premier League. Shaw said he, FSR, Alcaide, Chua, Yap, Ko Brothers, SVB, Kaci, Duong and Sky should get invites. Didn't mention Gorst, but he's a lock too. Bet Mickey Kause is as well.
"I am sure it will come down to who is not afraid to be banned by the WPA LOL," Shaw posted.
"There will be players missing this year, it's just going to happen. In lots of big events. Just not PLP."
"Unless it gets sorted then we stay the same LOL."
"Listen, you ready for this guys. I spoke to WPA. They said lot of players reached out and committed not playing in non-sanctioned events. And for doing that they let the players start playing in February."
"That's why some guys going to Vegas I think."
"They paid the $500 fine I bet."
"Whoever plays in the open event in Vegas that played Hanoi, well, that tells you all you need to know who paid and got back to playing early."
"That was straight from Ishaun."
"Maybe there is no dates until Vegas happens. Then see who plays."
"Maybe she [Frazer] waits see how [many] jump ship, then announce who they pick for invitational events lol."
"I'm just coming up with shit. Have a lot of time on my hands."
"I think it will get settled. So we can all do what we want. Play pool."
Last edited:
Obviously the bashing of Filler stems mostly from his WPA-WNT related actions. Not really his talent and accomplishments.
One group of people fault his integrity, and it’s easy to understand why. He made a commitment, then backed out in a seemingly selfish and self-serving way.
Others see him as betraying an effort by the players to unite and push back against the WPA ban. Panozzo said there was a lot of anger by a lot of players at Filler.
I belong to a union, and I get it. For maybe the first time ever the top players seemed to unite in common cause against an unjust action (WPA ban).
Pro pool players don’t have an official union, of course, but it was an informal effort to act like one.
By Filler backing out, the effort by players to take joint action kind of collapsed. The result was a splintering of players into factions.
Does the splintering happen if Filler and Ouschan stick with the WNT? Maybe it still does, but it made it easier for other players to do the same. The WPA needed a few really big names to stick with it.
Don’t get me wrong. I understand why Filler and Ouschan backed out and I sympathize to some extent. Nor do I hold it against them.
But it’s reasonable to argue their change of heart gave the WPA more leverage and dragged out this dispute. That’s been costly to other players.
jayson is often shitposting so i don't attach too much value to what he says online. but yea lets hope the wpa crap ends before all the good events
Nonsense. The ban was coming no matter what and everyone knew it. To suggest that the players united for a cause is also probably wrong. The boycott was never going to have an impact on WPA actions, and I'd bet my last dollar that those who boycotted were pushed into their actions by Matchroom.
To suggest that a union mentality has anything to do with this boycott is just plain uninformed. The players are not a union, or even close to one. The WNT pros do not and, have never had a structure in which they could put up a united front about anything. Informal political alliances like this one can change every day and nobody is bound by them if they choose to walk away.
Nobody suggests that Josh couldn't have handled things more skillfully and diplomatically, but his actions in no way compromised the interests of WNT and had no impact on the quality of the hand that WPA had to play.
The ban will eventually prove to be a WPA bluff, and ther 245 will be welcomed back, but the players themselves will have no role in determining what the ultimate outcome is.
Clearly, we interpret things differently, and that's fine.
Was the ban coming no matter what? You'd know better than me.
Yet I don't see how one can argue that top players didn't come together to try to put pressure on the WPA. That was the whole point of the joint statement they all sent around, whether at Matchroom's behest or not.
Their threat not to attend WPA events was obviously meant to try to dissuade the WPA even if it had no chance to succeed.
Otherwise, why bother to send out any statement at all and announce a boycott? Why hold a meeting at the Euro Open to talk about it? Did they really do it for no reason at all? Please.
Yes, I know the players are not a union. Nor do I suggest they have a union mentality. But again, they certainly tried to act in unison - something we all know they have NEVER done before. Many players said so, in various forms, on social media.
Which is why so many players go so mad when Filler backed out. That's not me talking. That's the players themselves. Gorst, Woodward, Chua and Biado among others put out statements or expressed displeasure on social media. Panozzo reported an icy chill between the two camps of players at the International Open.
Clearly, the WNT-allied players got angry for a reason.
Gorst, for example, wrote: "It’s disappointing that despite the unified stance of some of the strongest players in the game, including myself, certain individuals have chosen to participate in upcoming WPA tournaments."
Chua was indirect in his criticism, saving most for the WPA, but he emphasized: "With the force of our fellow athletes, united and standing together in solidarity, we will not participate in any event sanctioned by the WPA for the remainder of 2024 unless these bans are lifted. I AM TAKING A STAND IN SOLIDARITY WITH MY FELLOW PLAYERS."
Do I think Filler's actions compromised the interests of the WNT? Of course they did! That's why MR ended up dropping him from Reyes and Mosconi. Would have been better for MR to have him there.
The flip side is Filler had to do what he thought was in his own best interest. I have zero problem with that. Neither do you. We also both think he could have handled the situation better, but it's water under the bridge now.
***
In any case, what is done is done. No amount of back and forth between anyone on this board will change that. So it will be the last I have to say about it.
I am simply hoping and waiting for a resolution. I am past the blame stage and just want to see the best play the best.
Yes, it was coming no matter what and many elite players chose to skip the Hanoi Open because they felt that playing would come at too great a price.
Biado made it clear in his pre-tournament comments, when he chose to play Hanoi, that he knew the ban was coming, but explained that he expected to be banned and was willing to pay the price of being banned.
And no, the boycott had zero impact on anyone or anything.
Revisionist history.
Despite their historic match, Earl and Efren was not a great rivalry. Shane/Dennis was not a true rivalry, as Shane beat Dennis nearly every time out. In a real rivalry, the top spot must go back and forth.
On the other hand, Sigel and Varner went back and forth beating each other for a decade, and at long last, we have a rivalry in pool with a similar back and forth between the world's two best players In their last four events played together, a) Filler won over Gorst in the Predator Challenge of Champions, beating Fedor in the final, b) Gorst won the Derby City Banks, beating Filler along the way, c) Gorst won the Derby City One Pocket, beating Filler along the way, and d) Filler won the Derby City 9ball, beating Gorst in the semifinal. It's always a toss-up when these two meet and they have been number one and number two on the money list for three years.
The Filler/Gorst rivalry is electrifying and has a chance to bloom into the greatest rivalry our sport has ever seen if pool politics don't obstruct its perpetuation.
Last edited: