WNT and WPA. Frazer says…

jbart65 said:
The Predator events in Las Vegas at the end of the month are interesting. Three WPA sanctioned events - men and women's 10 ball and mixed doubles. And five unsanctioned events, all invitationals, including banks and one pocket.

SVB is playing in the unsanctioned bank and one-pocket events. Woodward and Billie are in the bank event. I don't see Gorst listed on any of the events.

No list yet for the players in the sanctioned events. The promo shows Filler, Kazakis Patsura and Lin.

. Got to wonder if a Sky or Billie would go there for just one event.

In any case, Predator really seems to be stepping up its game. More events and prize money. They even seem to be creating their own year end events to try to mimic, to some extent, the idea of Mosconi. That is, players who do well during the year get rewarded at the end.

For example, Predator had a champion of champions tourney in December pitting the winner of the World 8 (WPA), 9 (WNT) and 10-ball tournaments against each other. Filler, Gorst and Biado were the trio.

Seems Predator is responding to the MR competition. Would be interesting to see if Predator eventually creates a tour of its own in either 8-ball or 10-ball.
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Interesting post. Yes, Predator has, and continues, to up its game, but it is not clear that the emerging competition for the services of the top pro players is a bad thing for pro pool or its fans. Yes, the discomfort of the moment has players and fans alike gasping.

The premise that one cannot hold a premier event without the WNT pros does not really stand up to scrutiny. The reality is that both WPA and WNT events will, in the short-term deliver very strong fields, but until there is some sort of reconciliation, neither will offer the kind of fields that the fans crave.

I just returned from Derby City two weeks ago. The buzz at Derby City was all about the Filler vs Gorst rivalry. In banks, Gorst beat Filler in route to the title. In one pocket, Gorst beat Filler in route to the title, and in 9ball, Filler beat Gorst in route to the title. These two, in the final at the World Pool Masters, gave us the greatest match of 2024 in pro pool. This rivalry is in overdrive.

These two are pool's headliners and might just remain so for another decade. WPA, Predator, and Matchroom all understand it well and I believe all of them will find a way to have as many events as possible that include both.

I believe that the pains of this moment in our sport will ultimately give way to a world in which fans get the fields they want, and players get the freedom to compete that they seek. How long it will be until we get there is the great mystery, but WNT's superb management team has shown it knows how to grow and globalize our sport and if Predator is following suit, it's probably a win-win for pro pool.
 
Scrunge19 said:
Players list at the bottom of this page.

Pretty soft field in comparison to ones we’ve seen in years past.
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I'd call it a very strong field, but, as nicksaint rightly points out, it is missing more than a few that we'd all like to see.

I'm so sure that this will be one of the five strongest fields of the year on US soil that I'm going to attend the last four days of the men's event.
 
sjm said:
I'd call it a very strong field, but, as nicksaint rightly points out, it is missing more than a few that we'd all like to see.

I'm so sure that this will be one of the five strongest fields of the year on US soil that I'm going to attend the last four days of the men's event.
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I’ll see you there!
 
sjm said:
I'd call it a very strong field, but, as nicksaint rightly points out, it is missing more than a few that we'd all like to see.

I'm so sure that this will be one of the five strongest fields of the year on US soil that I'm going to attend the last four days of the men's event.
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Good to hear Stu. I'll see you out there! Whether you see this as a quality field may depend on your expectations. If you're looking for a comprehensive contest amongst the world's best players, this isn't it.

On the other hand we think of Derby City Classic 9-Ball as a pretty strong group of players.
And at over 800, there were 9 at DCC and there are 12 here
And at over 775, there were 26 at DCC and there are 33 here
And at over 750, there were 36 at DCC and there are 45 here.

It's a strong field for the women. Amongst top 30, missing just players from China, Allison Fischer, and Bean Hung. Otherwise everybody is there. 14 players over 730; 25 players over 680, and 35 players over 630.

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sjm said:
Yes, Predator has, and continues, to up its game, but it is not clear that the emerging competition for the services of the top pro players is a bad thing for pro pool or its fans. Yes, the discomfort of the moment has players and fans alike gasping.
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It's an unalloyed good thing imo. MR can't fill up an annual calendar enough to be the sole promoter for a global pro pool game.

And of course it just does 9-ball. There is obviously a place for 8- and 10-ball, women's pool, banks, one-pocket, idiosyncratic events that have a long tradition such as Derby City. You've made that point many a time.

sjm said:
How long it will be until we get there is the great mystery, but WNT's superb management team has shown it knows how to grow and globalize our sport and if Predator is following suit, it's probably a win-win for pro pool.
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Lots of growing pains are to be expected. There are few big issues.

Start with Predator. The company has to figure out how to build and structure a predictable annual tournament schedule if it aims to be permanent and successful promotor of pro pool. (It's much smaller than MR).

Creating an actual 10-ball tour for both men and women -- a pool season if you will -- should be a goal in my view. Just having a series of discrete events, sometimes annual sometimes not, doesn't move the ball forward in a huge way.

Which means a points system and perhaps an annual prize allotment to the top three point winners in men and women's 10 ball. Think of it as a modified NASCAR format.

Matchroom already figured out pro pool needed a tour, of course, with a points system and a reward: Participation in the Mosconi or Reyes. These events also offer guaranteed money - the MR version of a prize allotment - and the chance to build brand awareness for ad/sponsor opportunities.

Which brings us to the BIG ELEPHANT in the room: Scheduling.

Both MR and Predator are in what appears to be the early stages of creating predictable annual schedules. Unless they communicate regularly, and they don't appear to be, there is going to be constant and inevitable conflict on dates.

Even under the best of circumstances, with both companies working hand and hand, it would take a long time to sort out. Throw in the WPA trying to dominate emerging markets, such as Vietnam, and there's bound to be more conflict as we have seen.

I suspect that both MR and Predator try to play nice to some extent. MR doesn't do any big events in Jan-Feb, for instance. Predator does. And Predator knows when the big MR events are taking place: WPC, US Open, Mosconi.

The conflicts are more likely to revolve around new events that Predator and MR are trying to make regular. We saw an example of that last year with the WPA-WNT date conflict in October involving the WPA World 8-ball title and Hanoi/Reyes.

In a perfect world, the two entities would work out a predictable annual schedule over the next three to five years and then cement them largely in place.

Not sure it's likely to happen. Which means more disputes in the future - even if the current ban/dispute stemming from the Hanoi Open is resolved.
 
Badpenguin said:
I'll say this... He has the highest gear I have ever seen, and probably ever will see. Watching him burn through entire 1P matches at DCC in 15-30 minutes, for example.
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Jose parica had just as high a gear.

Just saying.

Jaden
 
mikepage said:
Good to hear Stu. I'll see you out there! Whether you see this as a quality field may depend on your expectations. If you're looking for a comprehensive contest amongst the world's best players, this isn't it.

On the other hand we think of Derby City Classic 9-Ball as a pretty strong group of players.
And at over 800, there were 9 at DCC and there are 12 here
And at over 775, there were 26 at DCC and there are 33 here
And at over 750, there were 36 at DCC and there are 45 here.
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I'm calling this a very strong field. Yes, before the schism in our sport, we saw many events having 20 or more 800+ players, but for now, we must accept the realities of the moment. Certainly, using your Fargo rates cited, there are 33 who are capable of winning the Las Vegas Open title.

For tournaments based in the US, I'll take a guess that only the US Open 9ball and International Open will offer 20+ Fargo 800+ players in 2025. There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that this will prove to be one of the premier fields found on American soil in 2025.

Look forward to seeing you in Vegas, Mike.
 
jbart65 said:
Which brings us to the BIG ELEPHANT in the room: Scheduling.

Both MR and Predator are in what appears to be the early stages of creating predictable annual schedules. Unless they communicate regularly, and they don't appear to be, there is going to be constant and inevitable conflict on dates.
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MR and Predator aren't the only elephants. The Euro Tour, for example, has 128-256 entry tournaments every other month.

Pool is definitely suffering some growing pains. Hopefully everyone involved doesn't self destruct again.
 
Scrunge19 said:
Players list at the bottom of this page.

Pretty soft field in comparison to ones we’ve seen in years past.
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For the record, here they are.
  1. Aaron Arganoza
  2. Adrian Prasad
  3. Alan Rolon
  4. Albert Januarta
  5. Albin Ouschan
  6. Alex Kazakis
  7. Alex Montpellier
  8. Alex Pagulayan
  9. Bader Alawadhi
  10. Bob Keller
  11. Bobby Garza
  12. Brad Rickel
  13. Can Salim
  14. Chia-Chen Hsieh
  15. Chip Compton
  16. Chris Reinhold
  17. Christian Harwood
  18. Christopher Baginski
  19. Christopher Seckinger
  20. Cody Booth
  21. Corey Deuel
  22. Cornell Jr McLean
  23. D’Angelo Spain
  24. Dan Louie
  25. Daniel Maciol
  26. Denis Grabe
  27. Dimitrios Loukatos
  28. Donny Mills
  29. Eddie Vonderau
  30. Emil-André Gangflot
  31. Eric Cantrell
  32. Eric Pickar
  33. Eric Withrow
  34. Ericson Vargas
  35. Ernesto Dominguez
  36. Erwin Macapagal
  37. Evan Lunda
  38. Fabian Breuer
  39. Francisco Bustamante
  40. Francisco Garcia
  41. Francisco Serrano
  42. Franklin Hernandez
  43. Gary Onomura
  44. Gerson Martinez
  45. Hendra Kurniawan
  46. Henrik Larsson
  47. Hickory Loudermilk
  48. Hojun Kwon
  49. Hui Chan Lu
  50. Janri Cruz
  51. Jas Makhani
  52. Jeffrey De Luna
  53. Jeremy Courtney
  54. Jeremy Long
  55. Jesus Atencio
  56. Joey Tate
  57. John Moceri
  58. John Morra
  59. Jorge Bermúdez
  60. José Alberto Delgado
  61. Joshua Filler
  62. Joshua Roberts
  63. Juan Carlos Expósito
  64. Jung Lin Chang
  65. Keegan Badour
  66. Konnor McFadyen
  67. Krzysztof Gardjas
  68. Kun Lin Wu
  69. Marco Teutscher
  70. Mark Estiola
  71. Mark Muir
  72. Martin Daigle
  73. Masashi Myojo
  74. Masato Hiraoka
  75. Mateusz Sniegocki
  76. Max Adams
  77. Max Lechner
  78. Michael Hutcheson
  79. Michael Malkowski
  80. Michael Mitchell
  81. Mika Immonen
  82. Naoyuki Oi
  83. Niko Konkel
  84. Norbert Żelasko
  85. Oscar Valdiviezo
  86. Payne McBride
  87. Preston Swinson
  88. Radoslaw Babica
  89. Ralf Souquet
  90. Randal Bagot
  91. Ray Cruz
  92. Rick Funk
  93. Rick Glenn
  94. Robert Emmons
  95. Robert Johnson
  96. Robert Moreno
  97. Robert Zon Jr
  98. Roberto Gomez
  99. Rodrigo Noceda
  100. Ruben Bautista
  101. Ruslan Chinakhov
  102. Sean Monkman
  103. Sergio Rivas
  104. Shane Norwood
  105. Shane Winters
  106. Sharik Sayed
  107. Sidhant Bastia
  108. Stefan Kasper
  109. Su-ung Kim
  110. Sylvain Gingras
  111. Tai Nguyen Minh
  112. Thomas Cacchione
  113. Tim Jonkman
  114. Tim Tonjum
  115. Tim Traver
  116. Timothy Evans
  117. Timothy Fowler
  118. Tod Walker
  119. Tom Limor
  120. Tomasz Malinowski
  121. Tony Chohan
  122. Tony Garcia
  123. Trevor Seale
  124. Tuan Anh Nguyen
  125. Tyler Fleishman
  126. Victor Cucuzza
  127. Vitaliy Patsura
  128. Wojciech Szewczyk
 
Badpenguin said:
MR and Predator aren't the only elephants. The Euro Tour, for example, has 128-256 entry tournaments every other month.

Pool is definitely suffering some growing pains. Hopefully everyone involved doesn't self destruct again.
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Predator is basically driving the Euro Tour bus these days.
 
Badpenguin said:
MR and Predator aren't the only elephants. The Euro Tour, for example, has 128-256 entry tournaments every other month.

Pool is definitely suffering some growing pains. Hopefully everyone involved doesn't self destruct again.
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In the short-term, it is very hard to imagine Euro-tour having a place at the big boys table of professional pool. Prize money has increased, but Filler won just over $6,000 for winning last weekend's Italian Open after beating a field of 256. By my reckoning, only the top eight more than covered expenses, so whether Euro-tour fields will be super-elite going forward is still to be determined in a pool world that now offers the players numerous big paydays.

Still, Predator's presence is very good news for the Euro-tour, and if prize money grows over time, Euro-tour, which has given us countless great fields over the years, can become an increasingly important tour.

I just don't see Euro-tour as a significant player in pool's competitive landscape quite yet.
 
sjm said:
In the short-term, it is very hard to imagine Euro-tour having a place at the big boys table of professional pool. Prize money has increased, but Filler won just over $6,000 for winning last weekend's Italian Open after beating a field of 256. By my reckoning, only the top eight more than covered expenses, so whether Euro-tour fields will be super-elite going forward is still to be determined in a pool world that now offers the players numerous big paydays.

Still, Predator's presence is very good news for the Euro-tour, and if prize money grows over time, Euro-tour, which has given us countless great fields over the years, can become an increasingly important tour.

I just don't see Euro-tour as a significant player in pool's competitive landscape quite yet.
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Well, regardless of what it pays out, it is churning out world beaters that make Americans look like amateurs. I'm curious if there are comparable tours in Asia that is churning them out, who almost make the Euros look like amateurs.
 
Badpenguin said:
Well, regardless of what it pays out, it is churning out world beaters that make Americans look like amateurs. I'm curious if there are comparable tours in Asia that is churning them out, who almost make the Euros look like amateurs.
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The last "tour" I recall in Asia was the San Miguel tour about 20 years ago. I forget if it was widespread or only in the Philippines.
 
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