Gremlin said:
Spoken like the head idiot.
Don't forget that how he manages that break speed determines how many balls go in.
Women and pool
- Thread starter Mr. Wilson
- Start date
Spoken like the head idiot.
Don't forget that how he manages that break speed determines how many balls go in.
drivermaker
Banned
sarahrousey said:
I don't care where you stand in the rankings, I think you just picked up a hell of a lot more male fans here on the forum. Phhhhewwwww......
drivermaker
Banned
landshark77 said:Oh Drivermaker, you really know how to wow a lady.Ah, you are single aren't you???
....thought so.
Well, aaaaahhh, that's kinda up for interpretation. You see...when you were just 5 years old I met a very lovely young lady and we've been together ever since. With no national "common law marriage" law in existence, and common law not being recognized in the two states that we've lived, and no ceremony in front of a JP, ship captain, or preacher...that would be correct.
There have been others who would beg to disagree. I'll go with your answer though.
BTW...what's the longest length of time you've been with someone before they were driven stark raving bonkers? Have I beaten your record?....thought so.
sarahrousey said:
I think that is always missing in these talks or just ignored. Strength and size means nothing in regards to break speed and as such the women are not lacking in the break department due to strength, they are lacking in break power due to skill and technique. Watch the best breakers and how loose they are and how much body motion they have in the break. Then watch 99% of women break and how restricted their body motion is and what they put into the break by comparison. Bustamente almost kicks himself in the back of the head on his break, most women dont hardly have either foot even come off the ground.
Women are weaker then men in pool because of their skill and attitude, not because of their muscle. Sarah is right on the point that women lack the confidence and killer instinct by in large. You could make an arguement for Allison or Karen maybe, since they are the closest to the mentallity of a true top male player who is all business and simply drills their opponent with zero emotion. Even them though, they have very restricted styles that can only get them so far and that point is nowhere near the top level.
There is a catch 22 though, for all the nerves a woman has playing a man and the stereotypes she has to ignore and overcome the men that have to play top women often dont play their best games either because there is more pressure on them to win or face the fame of loosing to a women, despite the fact she is a top pro. Any woman that takes out a top pro in a event is going to get press, and the guys that have to play that woman dont want to be "the guy" that they beat. Playing a woman will mess with a guys head and usually it will weaken his game so the women dont get the sole mental excuses when it comes to loosing to the men because those men are also under different pressure then normal.
I think most of you have missed the entire point of this thread...the question was not "Can" the Women compete with then Men but "Why don't they?"
Nostroke gave a very good and accurate response, because they don't have too! They have a much more successful tour than the men. Way back when when the WPBA was first formed they were approached by the men to try and form a "joint" tour (like the women and mens tennis tours, not competing with each other but side by side in the same events)...this was quickly squashed. The men could not agree on a format and the women wisely realized that this might ultimately hurt them. I was also told by a female pro the president of the WPBA at that time, I believe. At their first meeting, the first thing they asked her was to make the coffee. She knew then and there it was not going to work...
The debate of weather woman 'can' compete is old and tired...I compete and beat men all the time that are at my level. The truth is there are 100 men who play pool seriously to every 1 woman. The odds will always be in their favor, if i am looking for a perfect diamond, I will have much better odds if I am looking in a bag of 1000 than in a bag of 10.
I think the question should be
"Why don't the Men smarten up and follow the woman's example and put together a unified & successful tour?"
Nostroke gave a very good and accurate response, because they don't have too! They have a much more successful tour than the men. Way back when when the WPBA was first formed they were approached by the men to try and form a "joint" tour (like the women and mens tennis tours, not competing with each other but side by side in the same events)...this was quickly squashed. The men could not agree on a format and the women wisely realized that this might ultimately hurt them. I was also told by a female pro the president of the WPBA at that time, I believe. At their first meeting, the first thing they asked her was to make the coffee. She knew then and there it was not going to work...
The debate of weather woman 'can' compete is old and tired...I compete and beat men all the time that are at my level. The truth is there are 100 men who play pool seriously to every 1 woman. The odds will always be in their favor, if i am looking for a perfect diamond, I will have much better odds if I am looking in a bag of 1000 than in a bag of 10.
I think the question should be
"Why don't the Men smarten up and follow the woman's example and put together a unified & successful tour?"
drivermaker
Banned
cuechick said:
Because all of those poor bastards are spending way too much time having to make their own coffee......
You're right Gremlin, she doesn't have anything to prove. But I'm sure that Sarah has given some thought to how much time she spends on this forum and it's effect on her practice time. You should be a little more thankful that she does take time out to lend an opinion or give some useful advice quite often. There's an awful lot of useless drivel out there and hers is a voice of reason in the wilderness.Gremlin said:
Gremlin said:
I'll tell him/her for you, Sarah (since you're so (too) nice)..........F OFF!!.
She's old enough to do whatever she wants, when she wants.
You know, the whole context and the intent for starting this thread has been hijacked.
It's not as much about a battle of the sexes as it is about finding simply the "best".
As has been pointed out numerous times, there are quite a few women who are superbly qualified to play against anyone they chose.
The question was, why don't they or won't they participate in games against the best men?
It's a very easy to understand that serious men out number serious women players by a huge margin........but........I would still think they would want to know if they *really* have what it takes, Who is the Best?
Ultimately, pool is about competition. 100% competitive in nature. Hasn't got a thing to do with nurture or even in a greater sense, sportsmanship, or how the organizations are run.
Man or Woman, never will you see the opponent really wishing for their competitor's "good luck", hoping they get a good roll and every time they play safe, they want the other guy as screwed as possible.
Pretty words and courtesy, strength VS. sex aside, it's about who drops the money ball.
I just want to see the best rise to the occasion.
When the best play the best, I really do hope there is a woman who is qualified and willing to join the fray.
Dave
It's not as much about a battle of the sexes as it is about finding simply the "best".
As has been pointed out numerous times, there are quite a few women who are superbly qualified to play against anyone they chose.
The question was, why don't they or won't they participate in games against the best men?
It's a very easy to understand that serious men out number serious women players by a huge margin........but........I would still think they would want to know if they *really* have what it takes, Who is the Best?
Ultimately, pool is about competition. 100% competitive in nature. Hasn't got a thing to do with nurture or even in a greater sense, sportsmanship, or how the organizations are run.
Man or Woman, never will you see the opponent really wishing for their competitor's "good luck", hoping they get a good roll and every time they play safe, they want the other guy as screwed as possible.
Pretty words and courtesy, strength VS. sex aside, it's about who drops the money ball.
I just want to see the best rise to the occasion.
When the best play the best, I really do hope there is a woman who is qualified and willing to join the fray.
Dave
I don't know if any of you read Jen Barretta, said about skill level on her board (APA skill level I think), but see said that the top 16 would be SL6-SL7. Now I'm fairly new to the APA, but I would say a SL7 falls far behind what a Pro player is. Not trying to stir the poop any more but if she's right, that answers why the WPBA doesn't allow them (or atleast I think they aren't allowed).
And Oh by the way, I do think that some of the woman can (and some do with men).
Pete
And Oh by the way, I do think that some of the woman can (and some do with men).
Pete
coolpoolfool
Pool lover
Get 'em, Sarah! LOLI for one think it's awesome that Sarah takes time out of her schedule to come on here. Why would that be a waste of time? Even the pros don't know everything. I'm sure the men pros don't practice 24/7 either. She is entitled to a life, and if she chooses to spend her free time posting on a billiards-related forum, more power to her.
You know, what bothers me about some of these statements is that it detracts from the progress women have made, not just in pool but in society. Simply put, historically women have not been treated as equals. Even today, when you view the women who demonstrate male-type characteristics in competitive situations, they're demonized as being masculine or if they have attractive feminine attributes, bitches.
It wasn't too long ago that society was legally segmented by gender (Civil Rights Act, 1964). There were places women simply didn't go and poolrooms were definately one of them. Although laws have changed and poolrooms have become a more popular social destination for both genders, it is still considered a spectacle when a woman rents a table by herself. Without exception, a lone woman practicing in a poolroom will be offered continuous commentary.
Yet, we men still sit here on our perch and tell these women that they cannot gain our respect until they have accomplished the goals we, as men, have accomplished. Since technically there is nothing obviously masculine required to attain pool perfection, we men feel that the playing-field is perfectly level and that no accommodations should be made. However, we forget (or never bothered to learn) that this is hardly the case.
The suppression of women is something that predates American society. In fact, not only does it predate our ancestral European societies, it predates historical society on the whole. Through physical intimidation, we have suppressed an entire gender for eons and only in our most recent modern history begun to make things right. The evidence is complete and absolute. From the clothes worn to the taking of a husband's name. Not only are women considered attractive accessories in and of themselves, they completely handover their identity and forfeit any sort of lineage considered an evolutionary right.
Yet, we've moved beyond this. Forget that it was only the 1970's that the US Supreme Court established that a "Men's Only" club was unconstitutional and forget that it wasn't until this decade that women actually began to invade some of these well-heeled establishments. Everything is all square, right? Does it matter that gym class was always segregated and girls were given sports that required less hand-eye coordination (if any)? Does it matter that even NCAA sports shows a discrepancy between what is offered for men vs. what is offered for women?
So here we are, in the dawn of the 21st century, less than a century removed from the time women were allowed to vote (1920) and we sit here, on our perch, telling women they're still not good enough. There's a women's tour because some people in this world find them entertaining, if not because they play excellent pool but because they are competitive in a game that has historically been dominated by men. Will this domination continue? For the time being, it would be fair to say yes but only time will tell. Women have narrowed the gap in marathon running, been considered for the NHL, shown the same grit and determination on the tennis courts. In my opinion, pool will be no different. Eventually, it will be unnecessary to have segregation yet still showcase the very best women have to offer.
You really think Alison Fisher, Karen Corr and Jean Balukas are the ceiling of women's pool? None of us have a right to declare where that ceiling is and none of us have any idea. I will introduce a term for you: "Natural State" , which would be defined as the way something is (or would be) without outside intervention. Women in their "natural state" have not existed in any part of the western world at any point in time. Until the natural state of women is reached, any assessment made about their current ability should be recognized that its achievement was done under handicap.
It wasn't too long ago that society was legally segmented by gender (Civil Rights Act, 1964). There were places women simply didn't go and poolrooms were definately one of them. Although laws have changed and poolrooms have become a more popular social destination for both genders, it is still considered a spectacle when a woman rents a table by herself. Without exception, a lone woman practicing in a poolroom will be offered continuous commentary.
Yet, we men still sit here on our perch and tell these women that they cannot gain our respect until they have accomplished the goals we, as men, have accomplished. Since technically there is nothing obviously masculine required to attain pool perfection, we men feel that the playing-field is perfectly level and that no accommodations should be made. However, we forget (or never bothered to learn) that this is hardly the case.
The suppression of women is something that predates American society. In fact, not only does it predate our ancestral European societies, it predates historical society on the whole. Through physical intimidation, we have suppressed an entire gender for eons and only in our most recent modern history begun to make things right. The evidence is complete and absolute. From the clothes worn to the taking of a husband's name. Not only are women considered attractive accessories in and of themselves, they completely handover their identity and forfeit any sort of lineage considered an evolutionary right.
Yet, we've moved beyond this. Forget that it was only the 1970's that the US Supreme Court established that a "Men's Only" club was unconstitutional and forget that it wasn't until this decade that women actually began to invade some of these well-heeled establishments. Everything is all square, right? Does it matter that gym class was always segregated and girls were given sports that required less hand-eye coordination (if any)? Does it matter that even NCAA sports shows a discrepancy between what is offered for men vs. what is offered for women?
So here we are, in the dawn of the 21st century, less than a century removed from the time women were allowed to vote (1920) and we sit here, on our perch, telling women they're still not good enough. There's a women's tour because some people in this world find them entertaining, if not because they play excellent pool but because they are competitive in a game that has historically been dominated by men. Will this domination continue? For the time being, it would be fair to say yes but only time will tell. Women have narrowed the gap in marathon running, been considered for the NHL, shown the same grit and determination on the tennis courts. In my opinion, pool will be no different. Eventually, it will be unnecessary to have segregation yet still showcase the very best women have to offer.
You really think Alison Fisher, Karen Corr and Jean Balukas are the ceiling of women's pool? None of us have a right to declare where that ceiling is and none of us have any idea. I will introduce a term for you: "Natural State" , which would be defined as the way something is (or would be) without outside intervention. Women in their "natural state" have not existed in any part of the western world at any point in time. Until the natural state of women is reached, any assessment made about their current ability should be recognized that its achievement was done under handicap.
drivermaker
Banned
Nostroke said:
LMAO...I was wondering at first if it might have been Martha Burk. Is it?
Martha..................is it really you?
drivermaker
Banned
Nostroke said:
Ohhhh nooooo.....a sheep in wolves clothing.............
Women may not be the best pool players in the world, but many of them are truly outstanding players and we enjoy watching them compete.
Anyone who thinks a woman should be forced to compete with the best men should take a look at boxing. Why do they have weight classes in boxing? After all, only the heavyweight champ probably has a right to call himself the world's greatest fighter. Surely, there's nobody out there that would pick the flyweight champion in a bout with a heavyweight. And yet, we all understand that the champion of the flyweight class is a superb boxer, deserving of our respect and admiration, even if he can only knock out other flyweights.
Grouping those having comparable physical attributes together makes for an entertaining show. That's one of many reasons that me and so many others absolutely love women's pool. Greatness, we must remember, is not the exclusive domain of the heavyweights, in boxing or in any other sport.
Anyone who thinks a woman should be forced to compete with the best men should take a look at boxing. Why do they have weight classes in boxing? After all, only the heavyweight champ probably has a right to call himself the world's greatest fighter. Surely, there's nobody out there that would pick the flyweight champion in a bout with a heavyweight. And yet, we all understand that the champion of the flyweight class is a superb boxer, deserving of our respect and admiration, even if he can only knock out other flyweights.
Grouping those having comparable physical attributes together makes for an entertaining show. That's one of many reasons that me and so many others absolutely love women's pool. Greatness, we must remember, is not the exclusive domain of the heavyweights, in boxing or in any other sport.
I'll say the same thing i always say. This apply's directly too pool but i use golf cause they have well established tours.
If the woman wanna play in the PGA, Let the Men into the LPGA. That shit with Annika playing pisses me off. Its not about equality, if it was men would be invited to the LPGA tour. I believe men and woman should/are equal, but when does this gender rollercoster stop? If you want true equality you are making yourselves look bad, you just want a taste of what the men have.
If the woman wanna play in the PGA, Let the Men into the LPGA. That shit with Annika playing pisses me off. Its not about equality, if it was men would be invited to the LPGA tour. I believe men and woman should/are equal, but when does this gender rollercoster stop? If you want true equality you are making yourselves look bad, you just want a taste of what the men have.