Wondering where the worst refs in the world are? May I present the BCA...

In the Pros. I mean NFL, MLB, and NBA. (sorry I am not hockey fan so I can not say either way) They use instant replay. Do you know why. I will tell you. Because even professional refs blow calls. It happens. So why does anyone think it can not and should not happen in pool. Even if we had professional refs they are still human. Humans make mistakes. I am sorry but it is reality. Professional accountants make mistakes. Professional attorneys make them. Pro athletes make them. Everyone makes them. So why do we want to condem pool referees when they make them?

Mostly because like I said earlier probably 9/10ths of them could be eliminated if the refs had any kind of decent training. It's clearly not an issue where the refs themselves are just morons, but whoever trains them must be, because they have been doing a fairly lousy job for years and years. The faces change but the bad calls remain the same.
 
Here's a small stab at your horrible mis-information post.

Then I have a question. With some people traveling thousands of miles and spending thousands of their hard earned dollars to get to Vegas and play in the BCA. Why doesn't Mark Griffin have professional Refs?

In the BCAPL's opinion, the Ref's are Professionals. They have training courses, they have levels of different Ref's and are trained on rules. The Head Ref's probably do more events than most of the others as there is not a need for all of them to be Professionals year round. And like any other profession, there is lots of turn-over.

1. Mark gets $15 section fee from what 30,000-40,000 or more BCA league members.

This Fee does not go into Mark's Pocket! This sanction fee goes into running numerous State and Regional tournaments along with added money, advertisement costs and much much more. Without the fee, we would not have any tournaments!

2. Mark gets a 25% kick back on the hotel room rent from each BCA player.

This is 100% false!

3. Mark took $25 registration fee from each player in each singles event, and $25 per team in the team events.
That was about $30,000 from the Men's open singles alone. Now factor in Women's open singles, Men's Masters, Women's Masters, Seniors, Super Seniors, Open Scotch Doubles, Master's Scotch Doubles, Men's open teams, Women's open teams, Men's Master teams, Women's Master teams.

How much money was added to the tournament? How much does it cost to put this event on? How much to advertise? How much to provide all the flyers, trophies, pins, papers, etc. to each and every league across the country? How much to pay all the CSI staff to handle all the BS that goes into getting people signed up, validated, etc. to the event? ....

4. Maybe a million or more in dollars from the tables.

5. How many 10 cent BCA tokens that were bought for a dollar went home in people's cue cases?

Don't see how this is a complaint if people are not smart enough to sell their coins back at the end or sell or give them away before going back.

6. Oh yeah Mark owns the Vendor spots. How many Vendors at $2,000 - $3,000 per spot?

Mark doesn't "own" the vendor spots. The BCAPL pays a huge rental amount to have the Riviera for 2+ weeks long. How do you know that the Riv doesn't get any money to allow someone to sell merchandise inside the hotel?

7. And how could I miss the addition of the Food & Drink Nazis at the Ballroom doors this year. You think Mark was getting a slice of concessions at $3.00 for a can of soda?

The purpose of limiting persons from bringing outside beverages into the arena was to increase spending to the actual event beverage counters. It wasn't all to stop the ABC store spending but people buying coolers of drinks and bringing them in from who knows where. This is very acceptable IMO.

So in conclusion it looks to me that Mark Griffin is more concerned with lining his pockets with your money than he is with whether or not the proper call in made in your match. Just food for thought :eek:

This sums up your ignorance! The BCAPL has a team of ref's that are in charge of all the Referee's. Mark doesn't have a second to breathe to handle every little piece of this mass event by himself. The goal for Mark and the BCAPL is to get the most players possible, put on a superior event for all the players of the BCAPL and if they can profit from it great! Don't forget that when the BCAPL and CSI make money, they have more resources to put on even more great events like the Western BCA and the new Southwest Regional BCA Championship that is coming up Labor Day weekend in Arizona.
 
It truly is amazing that this stuff happens at the national level! It shouldn't happen at the state level let alone in Vegas. It seems to me that the people who make the decisions on a national level for our league systems should care more about this issue. If you don't have a quality ref at your events, it does give you less credibility as a league system. They need to have a officiating school that refs attend a few times a year, and it should be mandatory. I know that there are so many issues with running a league, but having quality officiating should be a high priority.
 
Here's kind of a funny ref story that had a happy ending (meaning resulted in a correct call):

I didn't see many matches in my short visit, but I was watching two very good players that were deep in the singles. One guy locked up the other pretty well. He decided to jump a couple balls and had to clear them and a ball down table about 8" before the object ball (about 2 feet from the original jump). They called over a ref, which took a little time for her to assess what's up. She then decided to call in a second ref to help watch the hit, which took more time. The players were kind of smiling and laughing about it and it seemed excessive to me.

They got the call right as he executed the jump (nice shot by the way), but I thought it a little silly...but at least it was the right call. Some of these post about bad calls are criminal.
 
Sounds like some people went to have a good time, and did not. Next year speak with what is in your wallet, and stay home!

What? Are you serious? BCAPL is the best National tournament I have ever been to. I have been going for 15 years straight. A few bad calls by refs will not stop me from going to try and win a title tournament.

Give me a break and stop with your negative, simplistic attitude.
 
Thanks for noticing!

12squared
Here's kind of a funny ref story that had a happy ending (meaning resulted in a correct call):

I didn't see many matches in my short visit, but I was watching two very good players that were deep in the singles. One guy locked up the other pretty well. He decided to jump a couple balls and had to clear them and a ball down table about 8" before the object ball (about 2 feet from the original jump). They called over a ref, which took a little time for her to assess what's up. She then decided to call in a second ref to help watch the hit, which took more time. The players were kind of smiling and laughing about it and it seemed excessive to me.

They got the call right as he executed the jump (nice shot by the way), but I thought it a little silly...but at least it was the right call. Some of these post about bad calls are criminal.

As the "SHE" in this instance... considering the distance of the jump and the amount of clutter (opponents object balls) and how close to the rail the shooters object ball was.... I felt it was only fair to the shooter for me to make sure that all angles were covered... excessive?...silly? Not in the least... for just that extra time the players waited they got the best call they could get. THAT is what I was taught was my responsibility to the players on the floor.


As a player and a referee, I do what I do for the love of the game and the respect due every player out there. I extend the offer to anyone that feels they can do what I do .... step up to the plate - take the class, walk the floor. It is with honor and pride I wear my stripes. Join me won't you?
 
As the "SHE" in this instance... considering the distance of the jump and the amount of clutter (opponents object balls) and how close to the rail the shooters object ball was.... I felt it was only fair to the shooter for me to make sure that all angles were covered... excessive?...silly? Not in the least... for just that extra time the players waited they got the best call they could get. THAT is what I was taught was my responsibility to the players on the floor.


As a player and a referee, I do what I do for the love of the game and the respect due every player out there. I extend the offer to anyone that feels they can do what I do .... step up to the plate - take the class, walk the floor. It is with honor and pride I wear my stripes. Join me won't you?

This is what a good ref sounds like! :bow-down:
 
As the "SHE" in this instance... considering the distance of the jump and the amount of clutter (opponents object balls) and how close to the rail the shooters object ball was.... I felt it was only fair to the shooter for me to make sure that all angles were covered... excessive?...silly? Not in the least... for just that extra time the players waited they got the best call they could get. THAT is what I was taught was my responsibility to the players on the floor.


As a player and a referee, I do what I do for the love of the game and the respect due every player out there. I extend the offer to anyone that feels they can do what I do .... step up to the plate - take the class, walk the floor. It is with honor and pride I wear my stripes. Join me won't you?

"She",

Thanks for posting and nice call. I have no interest in being a ref, although I have made many calls in my lifetime. Thanks for what you do! This was the only "interesting" call I saw so I thought I'd share in this thread what I thought was a little overkill, but that's only my opinion. The most important thing was that the result was correct. I respect and appreciate your view of the reasoning behind it. Thanks.

Dave
 
I wish I could say that I was surprised, but I'm not. In the pool world, a really good referee is not so easy to find. Bottom line - it's not as easy as it looks to be a good referee. I've seen more refs dog it than players, including in major tourneys.

Nigel Rees and Michaela Tabb with Matchroom are excellent! So is Kenny Shuman, Bill Stock and John Leyman, who worked on the U.S. Open Ten Ball. Justin Acker is another good ref I've worked with. So is Mark Wilson. It's a short list.

You left out one of my favorites, Scott Smith!
 
Jay's a pretty good Ref and TD also

As Difficult as it is to find good Refs, the chore gets even tougher when looking for good tournament directors.

Ken Shuman and Bill Stock are both. And Not too many Refs or tournament directors can play and compete as well as Ken and Bill.

You left out one of my favorites, Scott Smith!
 
What? Are you serious? BCAPL is the best National tournament I have ever been to. I have been going for 15 years straight. A few bad calls by refs will not stop me from going to try and win a title tournament.

Give me a break and stop with your negative, simplistic attitude.

I commented on a lot of others comments who were not happy!

BIMHO the Rules should be enforced per the book by all referees, or what good are the rules!
 
Aren't players responsible for knowing the rules? IMO the purpose of a referee is to settle disputes and watch for a legal hit.

As far as players taking the moral high ground I can't think of a sport (even golf) where players will say "my bad that didn't count".

I feel for the players who were screwed, but disputing referee decisions has to be the #1 American sport. The NFL has instant replay and God knows what else and they don't get it right.

My three favorite (read I can't believe it happened) sports calls. #1 is always number 1 the rest change.

1. Armen Terzian non offensive interference call on Drew Pearson 1975 playoffs Vikings v Cowboys. Even Drew Pearson admits it was pass interference.

2. Phil Cuzzi calling a foul ball against the Twins "I wasn't in position" you were about 20 ft away looking right at it.

3. Ed Hochuli's San Diego-Denver Jay Cutler's "incomplete pass".
 
First BCAPL Rule 1.1 is: A players responsible for knowing all the rules!
Well, OK, but the vast majority of players have never read the rule book, or if they have, few of the rules have seeped in. Even many TDs have only a modest acquaintance with the rules.

I doubt that it will ever happen, but I think major league tournaments should require referee duty by each player present. If the player-ref on duty clearly makes a mistake on a call (as judged by supervising refs), they should be penalized. Then maybe players would start to pay attention to the real rules as opposed to what their Uncle Louie told them 20 years ago.

For those who think they know the rules, here's the first part of a quiz.
 
Well, OK, but the vast majority of players have never read the rule book, or if they have, few of the rules have seeped in. Even many TDs have only a modest acquaintance with the rules.



Spending a lot of time in Traffic Court in one of my job, the Judge use to say IGNORANCE of the LAW is not a DEFENSE. Guilty, Pay the Clerk, or do X Day's in the County Jail. NEXT CASE!
 
Hmmm

In the Pros. I mean NFL, MLB, and NBA. (sorry I am not hockey fan so I can not say either way) They use instant replay. Do you know why. I will tell you. Because even professional refs blow calls. It happens. So why does anyone think it can not and should not happen in pool. Even if we had professional refs they are still human. Humans make mistakes. I am sorry but it is reality. Professional accountants make mistakes. Professional attorneys make them. Pro athletes make them. Everyone makes them. So why do we want to condem pool referees when they make them?

The NFL, MLB and NBA have highly paid, and trained refs because it is a career, and instant replay because those sports move at lightning speed.
So there will be some mistakes, but usually not a rulebook mistake, but a judgment call because something happened so fast. So they will make a few bad calls now and then.

Pool on the other hand is "slow" compared to other athletic sports. Plus, before you make the call, you get yourself positioned, ask what the shooter is trying to do, and then watch the exact spot/area he is shooting. That is why pool ref's should miss very few calls.

I've umpired HS and college baseball and also ref'd a few local pool tourneys as well as being "on call" for any close calls on pool league nights. I've got to think I'm about 99% on the pool judgment calls, and even then it was a close hit and it could have gone either way. In baseball, no way I'm even close to 99% when you consider balls and strike calls. Just apples and oranges in my opinion. Two great sports but far different in terms of athletics and speed.

Most guys that play pool don't want to ref. Heck, most guys that play don't really even know the rules that well. I don't know what the ref's in major amatuer tourneys make but sounds like not very much. But heck, put me on a plane, pay my hotel room and few dinners and I'll ref for the weekend somewhere nice. I promise not to miss any calls !!
 
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