Wondering where the worst refs in the world are? May I present the BCA...

[Island Drive]

I just had to add this, when I see people talking about the refs making "mostly" good calls. For myself personally, if I direct a major pool tournament, I can expect to make 75-100 calls or rulings over the course of the event. My goal is to get EVERY ONE right! If I miss one call I have not had a good tournament. Two mistakes in one week is a disaster imo. A good ref does not have the luxury of "missing a ball" once in a while. He needs to make them all!

That's the yardstick I gauge myself by. When I can no longer do this, I will retire. The above includes when to give a warning, how much time to allow on a break etc. I WARNED Dennis Orcollo when he put a small towel over the side pocket. The second time he would have lost the game. It didn't happen again. This is an example of a judgement call. When Francisco was late for his match, we put him on the clock. After five minutes we docked him one game. That's when he showed up. He was not happy about the penalty, but accepted it. This was during the Group stages of the Masters, when we were playing a "roll on, roll off" schedule, with no set times. He had a responsibility to be in the arena and prepared to play.

John Morra was down on a ball when the clock ran out. I called FOUL, and then he shot. He complained saying he was already down on the shot. I reminded him that we made it clear at the players meeting you must shoot before the clock runs out. This is different than how the women play on the WPBA. They will allow you to shoot when you are down on the ball. John was the only player with a shot clock penalty.

These are examples of the types of decisions I must make during the course of a tournament. I always try to use good judgement when making them. Player misbehavior can be testing for me. Usually a warning will suffice, but not always. One time at the Open, I gave Earl a one game penalty for using profanity, after he had been warned. We never had another problem with him after that. This was about ten years ago.

P.S. You rake the balls, you lose the game. PERIOD!

Yep, when your put in a tough situation one error is definitely too much, I remember calling a hit in the Jr. Nationals, very close match at Magoos, forgot the kids name but he was the best player from Puerto Rico and coulda' beat Shane McMinn as well as he was playing, there was a spilt hit shot at a critical point in the match that I was asked to watch. I took my time understanding what the balls would do with a good hit and a bad hit & I had to make the call instantly, I did, I somewhat questioned my judgement, the player did not complain but I did make the correct call , NOT a fun position to be in, and it doesn't get any easier with time, and like Jay said 2 in one day is way too much. Refs cannot allow players to rush em into doing their job.

 

[SpinDoctor]

Yep, when your put in a tough situation one error is definitely too much, I remember calling a hit in the Jr. Nationals, very close match at Magoos, forgot the kids name but he was the best player from Puerto Rico and coulda' beat Shane McMinn as well as he was playing, there was a spilt hit shot at a critical point in the match that I was asked to watch. I took my time understanding what the balls would do with a good hit and a bad hit & I had to make the call instantly, I did, I somewhat questioned my judgement, the player did not complain but I did make the correct call , NOT a fun position to be in, and it doesn't get any easier with time, and like Jay said 2 in one day is way too much. Refs cannot allow players to rush em into doing their job.

This is where the problem lies, most of the refs don't have any clue where the balls will go in the event of a good/bad hit and just make a snap call when the players shoot. It's like flipping a coin and hoping that they come up with the correct answer.

I do agree that many players in these events will use any edge they can get to win, including calling in refs to watch shots that aren't really close hoping that they screw up a call. I used to think that it only happened in the open division but having played in open, intermediate and masters I've seen it in every division.

 

[Celtic]

But then we have a men's match where dude A is playing a safety, but the cue ball's a little close to the object ball so dude B calls the ref. So dude A hits the ball well and just trickles up to the 4-ball. It hits a rail, no problem, so it's all good. "Foul", calls the ref.

"Foul? For what?" says dude A.
"You hit the 4-ball," says the ref.
"Yes, I'M SOLIDS!"
"Oh," says the ref. "Well I can't change my call now that I've made it. Sorry." Then he gives the dude B the cue ball and walks away!

Thats absurd and a black eye to this sport and the BCAPL. If/when something like that takes place it is truly inexcusible and that ref needs to be fired right then and there. I don't care if he is volenteering, I don't care how hard it is to get refs for the event, having someone there doing things like that is not a benefit, it is a hinderence and the event is better one ref short then having him there.

The biggest issue is that alot of the refs don't have a clue how to actually play pool, they don't know how to hit touchy shots or how balls will react in funny positions, and those types of shots are the bulk of what they actually need to know.

The BCAPL should do a reffing school that requires a minimum level of skill in actually playing the game. To get decent players to actually possibly want to take part in being a ref there should be a small increase in league fees and that money should be so that the refs are making $20/hr for being there. There should also be systems in place where a player can free of charge take up issues such as the above with head refs and senior refs and if a ref is found to have made a totally wrong call they are required to go back to reffing school or they now need a senior ref or the head ref overseeing their calls, which can be overruled in competition by the head or senior ref if they get it wrong.

At the end of the day it is not right for a player to be penalized because a ref cannot correctly make a call, the sanctity of the match and the sport is the most important thing and this MUST be realized. Trying to save face of a ref who made a bad call at the expense of the sport and the competition is flat out wrong and hurts this sport more then many in power might realize.

Reffing is one of the weakest things in the league system atm, not only for the BCAPL but they are certainly in the mix with the rest of the league systems. I know some great refs from my city and I know some lousy ones. The great refs are well known refs in Vegas, they make the correct calls virtually every time, and they have the ability to do so because they have been around for decades in the game and they know what they are doing not only as refs, but as players.

 

[Richardson]

For the people defending the refs saying they get 95% of the calls right. I have no referee training and i could get 95% or more of the calls right. Most calls they have to make a blind monkey could get right.


I like saying right. OK !

I hate when someone calls a ref on me, not because im worried about the shot, because im worried the ref will make a bad call and lose me the game and maybe the match. That is why most people call them. As someone said above, once in awhile i will just shoot a safe instead of a tough shot if i am worried about the ref calling it bad. Which also helps the opposing player.

After saying all this, i think most people who ref are nice people. I don't think they do anything out of line on purpose. Just they don't know the game well, or just get nervous and make a bad call. It shouldn't happen though.

Good Day !

 

[Celtic]

I wish I could say that I was surprised, but I'm not. In the pool world, a really good referee is not so easy to find. Bottom line - it's not as easy as it looks to be a good referee. I've seen more refs dog it than players, including in major tourneys.

Nigel Rees and Michaela Tabb with Matchroom are excellent! So is Kenny Shuman, Bill Stock and John Leyman, who worked on the U.S. Open Ten Ball. Justin Acker is another good ref I've worked with. So is Mark Wilson. It's a short list.

I have seen a slew of reffing from people in the local pool scene when you are playing in local events and the good players, threat in the Open-Masters in Vegas are all knowledgable enough in how balls react that they are going to give you a correct call in almost every situation.

I have reffed matches, including a 10k money match. It is a pressure thing indeed but if you actually play pool enough and have the knowledge then you know what the player is attempting to do adn you can tell via the reaction of balls if the shot is a foul or not.

The problem with refs in Vegas is most of them cannot make the shots, nor do they have the knowledge on how the shot can be made with or without a foul. Good players know what is being attempted so they know waht to watch for in the reaction. Refs who cannot play and lack the knowledge are left watching the reaction without knowing what they should be watching for and suddenly all this stuff happens and as often as not tey are left guessing trying to figure out what they just saw. These people should NOT be reffing the BCAPL or any large competition like that.

 

[Celtic]

My friend called a ref over, thinking he was going to be awarded the game for unsportsmanlike conduct, and the ref gave him ball in hand because the player moved two or more balls. LOL, ball in hand on a completely rearranged table! He warned my friend he would be disqualified if he did not accept the ruling without further argument.

Disqualified my ass, the head ref would have been there in a heartbeat if that were me, and quite possibly the touranment director. The guy foreited the game by sweeping the table, that is common knowledge and I am pretty positive that is the way the rule book would interpret it.

 

[Celtic]

Then I have a question. With some people traveling thousands of miles and spending thousands of their hard earned dollars to get to Vegas and play in the BCA. Why doesn't Mark Griffin have professional Refs?

1. Mark gets $15 section fee from what 30,000-40,000 or more BCA league members.

2. Mark gets a 25% kick back on the hotel room rent from each BCA player.

3. Mark took $25 registration fee from each player in each singles event, and $25 per team in the team events.
That was about $30,000 from the Men's open singles alone. Now factor in Women's open singles, Men's Masters, Women's Masters, Seniors, Super Seniors, Open Scotch Doubles, Master's Scotch Doubles, Men's open teams, Women's open teams, Men's Master teams, Women's Master teams.

4. Maybe a million or more in dollars from the tables.

5. How many 10 cent BCA tokens that were bought for a dollar went home in people's cue cases?

6. Oh yeah Mark owns the Vendor spots. How many Vendors at $2,000 - $3,000 per spot?

7. And how could I miss the addition of the Food & Drink Nazis at the Ballroom doors this year. You think Mark was getting a slice of concessions at $3.00 for a can of soda?

So in conclusion it looks to me that Mark Griffin is more concerned with lining his pockets with your money than he is with whether or not the proper call in made in your match. Just food for thought

Meh, that is alot of addition with very little subtraction. I am guessing you have never owned your own company and had to weigh that gross income with the expenses.

The BCAPL definately should be getting onto this Ref problem, Mark Griffin is definately the guy who can make it happen, he is also the guy that ATM runs the best league system in America and who is atm seeming to push the pro scene into a better place with new tournaments starting to pop up, and a pro tournament streamed free by TAR with a bunch of money added COSTS money to put on, I am doubting the US Open 10-ball made him money this year.

Your rant is completely off topic and shows a huge amount of ignorance when it comes to the finacial realities of business.

 

[Poke N Hope]

Being a Ref is not easy

Back in the early ninties I was a ref (for a short time) for city and state level tournaments for a national pool league. It was completely on a volunteer basis and I had to go through an 8 hour training session. 5 hours of the training was instruction from the rule book. With that being said....

The situation were the player rakes the balls and the other player only recieves BIH. IMHO shows a complete lack of knowledge of the rules by the Ref and at a minium it should of been a loss of that game.

The situation were the Ref makes a bad call, then acknowleges his mistake and then hides behind a rule that he can't change it and then rewards the other player BIH for his mistake is complete BS. The proper action for this Ref would have been to admit his/her mistake and immediately consultant the Head Ref to try to correct the mistake that could not be changed by the lower level Ref.

All Ref's will make a bad call, the good ref's will automaticaly do the right thing and do whatever is needed and within there power to correct the situation.

 

[easy-e]

So dude C walks a couple of tables over to get out of dude D's way, and stands next to one of the empty tables. As he does, he casually taps the cue ball on the empty table one-handed with the tip of his cue and knocks it gently into the pocket. The ball travels maybe three inches.

So here comes ninja ref. "Foul! Ball in hand for dude D! You were practicing on an adjacent table during your game!"

Sorry man, but I agree with the ref here. I wouldn't go so far as to say he was "practicing", but when it is not your shot, you need to SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP. People that do that distract the hell out of me. I have asked people to sit down before, and they have always politely done so, but after that I am usually out of it already. I am a mental wreck on the table.

 

[jmurphy]

Meh, that is alot of addition with very little subtraction. I am guessing you have never owned your own company and had to weigh that gross income with the expenses.

The BCAPL definately should be getting onto this Ref problem, Mark Griffin is definately the guy who can make it happen, he is also the guy that ATM runs the best league system in America and who is atm seeming to push the pro scene into a better place with new tournaments starting to pop up, and a pro tournament streamed free by TAR with a bunch of money added COSTS money to put on, I am doubting the US Open 10-ball made him money this year.

Your rant is completely off topic and shows a huge amount of ignorance when it comes to the finacial realities of business.

To many issues with my post so it has been deleted.

 

[chris_williams]

J murphy

First off I understand there are cost to putting the BCA together. That being said There is still a HUGE chunk of change left over at the end of the day. And I am glad mark is making money but having said that there is a point where gouging become an issue.
In the end my point was right on target. Mark has the ability to deal with the Ref. issue but he wont.

I have an Idea. Maybe you should start the JMurphy pool league and you can see how easy it is. I have no Idea what Mark G's bottom line. I would say that he deserve every dime he gets.

 

[chris_williams]

Professional refs

A few of you keep calling for professional refs. Do you mean to tell me that MLB, NBA. and NFL refs never blow calls. To hear people on here say "one missed call is too many" is really comical to me. I would say in any professional sport there are more than one blown call by professional refs every game. Let alone a week long tournament like the BCPL Nationals.

 

[jmurphy]

To many issues with my post so it has been deleted.

 

[ne14tennis]

No Clue

Then I have a question. With some people traveling thousands of miles and spending thousands of their hard earned dollars to get to Vegas and play in the BCA. Why doesn't Mark Griffin have professional Refs?

1. Mark gets $15 section fee from what 30,000-40,000 or more BCA league members.

2. Mark gets a 25% kick back on the hotel room rent from each BCA player.

3. Mark took $25 registration fee from each player in each singles event, and $25 per team in the team events.
That was about $30,000 from the Men's open singles alone. Now factor in Women's open singles, Men's Masters, Women's Masters, Seniors, Super Seniors, Open Scotch Doubles, Master's Scotch Doubles, Men's open teams, Women's open teams, Men's Master teams, Women's Master teams.

4. Maybe a million or more in dollars from the tables.

5. How many 10 cent BCA tokens that were bought for a dollar went home in people's cue cases?

6. Oh yeah Mark owns the Vendor spots. How many Vendors at $2,000 - $3,000 per spot?

7. And how could I miss the addition of the Food & Drink Nazis at the Ballroom doors this year. You think Mark was getting a slice of concessions at $3.00 for a can of soda?

So in conclusion it looks to me that Mark Griffin is more concerned with lining his pockets with your money than he is with whether or not the proper call in made in your match. Just food for thought

You, sir....have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[mikeyfrost]

Another transparency issue with a pool event, what's new?

 

[MikeM]

First off I understand there are cost to putting the BCA together. That being said There is still a HUGE chunk of change left over at the end of the day. And I am glad mark is making money but having said that there is a point where gouging become an issue.
In the end my point was right on target. Mark has the ability to deal with the Ref. issue but he wont.

How do you know this? Do you have some kind of inside source telling you the profit that Mark is getting? If not, you're WAAAAAY off base talking about gouging.

And again, I ask all of you in the know - how many "professional" pool refs are there? Does someone like Ken Schuman consider himself a professional pool referee? Can anyone make a living reffing pool?

 

[MikeM]

For the people defending the refs saying they get 95% of the calls right. I have no referee training and i could get 95% or more of the calls right. Most calls they have to make a blind monkey could get right.

So how often do you ref then? If you have such knowledge and ability, do you ever offer it in a way that will help others?!?

 

[renard]

Sorry man, but I agree with the ref here. I wouldn't go so far as to say he was "practicing", but when it is not your shot, you need to SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP. People that do that distract the hell out of me. I have asked people to sit down before, and they have always politely done so, but after that I am usually out of it already. I am a mental wreck on the table.

Easy what you are not understanding about the situation is that the ref was never called to the table. With dozens upon dozens of matches going on he becomes a bystander watching the match then interferes. Yes the dude was wrong and it was a foul only if the opposing player calls it at that time.

 

[ne14tennis]

You don't get it

First off I understand there are cost to putting the BCA together. That being said There is still a HUGE chunk of change left over at the end of the day. And I am glad mark is making money but having said that there is a point where gouging become an issue.
In the end my point was right on target. Mark has the ability to deal with the Ref. issue but he wont.

Any referee has the ability and should change a call if they realized they made the wrong call.

 

[akaTrigger]

First off I understand there are cost to putting the BCA together. That being said There is still a HUGE chunk of change left over at the end of the day. And I am glad mark is making money but having said that there is a point where gouging become an issue.
In the end my point was right on target. Mark has the ability to deal with the Ref. issue but he wont.

How is your long list of cost/numbers that you are obviously assuming about have anything to do with this thread?

Hardly on target....