Maybe everyone else was too scared?
Wondering where the worst refs in the world are? May I present the BCA...
- Thread starter gromulan
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Maybe everyone else was too scared?
Wow, I can't believe that you can rake the table and not be disqualified.
A refs job is to alleviate problems, not cause them.
A refs job is to alleviate problems, not cause them.
This thread has many examples of bad calls but also bad sportsmanship by the players.
For example...
1) If I know my opponent definitely did not foul, and the ref gives me ball in hand, I'll simply put the ball back exactly where it was legally left by the opponent.
2) Similarly for the guy who raked the balls. He should have conceded the game, without needing a ref to do it for him. And if the ref wouldn't allow him to conceded it officially, of course he could do so unofficially.
If the calls are incredibly close and genuinely debatable, so be it. But in clear cases of a bad call, no player should ever take advantage of that. So, respect to the player who put the ball back where it should have been (rather than accepting ball in hand) after a bad call.
I am sure the Refs. make many more correct calls than bad ones, havinf said that it only takes one bad call to possibly ruin someone's trip to Vegas and possibly cost that person 1,000s of dollars in prize money.
To many issues with my post so it has been deleted.
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Tap, tap, tap. Too often that point is missed here on the boards...
That having been said, if the event is so big and prestigious, why wouldn't you want to try to arrange professional referee's? I realize that Mr.Griffin should be allowed to make a profit, and a good one. Professional referee's would be an additional expense, certainly. But it would be good business to eliminate these issues, so that your customer base doesn't go home from Vegas after spending thousands of dollars with a bad taste for your product....
I expect that this issue has been examined many times before, so there must be a financial element to it, one that isn't apparent to all of us. Still, it's too bad to have matches affected by such obviously poor examples. I agree that refs/umps/officials have a thankless job, but these examples are horrible.
I can't speak for a BCA ref but I can speak for myself who is a high level soccer referee..
It does not matter how many great calls I make, they are never remembered. Only the calls that I miss or calls that coaches/fans don't agree with are the ones that I am judged for.
Obviously, the calls that the OP witnessed sound like horrible calls but I'm going to guess that overall, the BCA referees did make a large majority of good calls. From my experience playing in BCA events, I can only recall a few missed calls from my perspective but most were right on track even if they did not go my way.
A referees job is thankless, that's for sure. They don't make a lot of money and generally do it for the love of the game. Just thought I'd offer a different point of view. YMMV.
It does not matter how many great calls I make, they are never remembered. Only the calls that I miss or calls that coaches/fans don't agree with are the ones that I am judged for.
Obviously, the calls that the OP witnessed sound like horrible calls but I'm going to guess that overall, the BCA referees did make a large majority of good calls. From my experience playing in BCA events, I can only recall a few missed calls from my perspective but most were right on track even if they did not go my way.
A referees job is thankless, that's for sure. They don't make a lot of money and generally do it for the love of the game. Just thought I'd offer a different point of view. YMMV.
Jay, I completely agree.. In any sport, when I don't really notice that officiating than it's a game that is called correctly.. That statement has a ton of merit.. Well said!
That is the result of failed reasoning process/faulty logic/non Aristotelian logic .Irrationality became very pervasive in our society in every profession.Imagine our fate when all these irrational people are in a position of authority- especially if it were police we have to deal with.
I just had to add this, when I see people talking about the refs making "mostly" good calls. For myself personally, if I direct a major pool tournament, I can expect to make 75-100 calls or rulings over the course of the event. My goal is to get EVERY ONE right! If I miss one call I have not had a good tournament. Two mistakes in one week is a disaster imo. A good ref does not have the luxury of "missing a ball" once in a while. He needs to make them all!
That's the yardstick I gauge myself by. When I can no longer do this, I will retire. The above includes when to give a warning, how much time to allow on a break etc. I WARNED Dennis Orcollo when he put a small towel over the side pocket. The second time he would have lost the game. It didn't happen again. This is an example of a judgement call. When Francisco was late for his match, we put him on the clock. After five minutes we docked him one game. That's when he showed up. He was not happy about the penalty, but accepted it. This was during the Group stages of the Masters, when we were playing a "roll on, roll off" schedule, with no set times. He had a responsibility to be in the arena and prepared to play.
John Morra was down on a ball when the clock ran out. I called FOUL, and then he shot. He complained saying he was already down on the shot. I reminded him that we made it clear at the players meeting you must shoot before the clock runs out. This is different than how the women play on the WPBA. They will allow you to shoot when you are down on the ball. John was the only player with a shot clock penalty.
These are examples of the types of decisions I must make during the course of a tournament. I always try to use good judgement when making them. Player misbehavior can be testing for me. Usually a warning will suffice, but not always. One time at the Open, I gave Earl a one game penalty for using profanity, after he had been warned. We never had another problem with him after that. This was about ten years ago.
P.S. You rake the balls, you lose the game. PERIOD!
That's the yardstick I gauge myself by. When I can no longer do this, I will retire. The above includes when to give a warning, how much time to allow on a break etc. I WARNED Dennis Orcollo when he put a small towel over the side pocket. The second time he would have lost the game. It didn't happen again. This is an example of a judgement call. When Francisco was late for his match, we put him on the clock. After five minutes we docked him one game. That's when he showed up. He was not happy about the penalty, but accepted it. This was during the Group stages of the Masters, when we were playing a "roll on, roll off" schedule, with no set times. He had a responsibility to be in the arena and prepared to play.
John Morra was down on a ball when the clock ran out. I called FOUL, and then he shot. He complained saying he was already down on the shot. I reminded him that we made it clear at the players meeting you must shoot before the clock runs out. This is different than how the women play on the WPBA. They will allow you to shoot when you are down on the ball. John was the only player with a shot clock penalty.
These are examples of the types of decisions I must make during the course of a tournament. I always try to use good judgement when making them. Player misbehavior can be testing for me. Usually a warning will suffice, but not always. One time at the Open, I gave Earl a one game penalty for using profanity, after he had been warned. We never had another problem with him after that. This was about ten years ago.
P.S. You rake the balls, you lose the game. PERIOD!
I agree and they have gotten much better with time, but historically the refs were allot of wanna be players, this has changed. What makes this job so tough is allot of bar teams have minimal knowlege/understanding of the game and because of their ignorance, they can make the ref appear incompetent.
I agree Jay you need to get all the calls right. I had a ref in the APA Nationals totally dog a call in my teams favor. A player was jacked up over a group of balls and on the follow through rolled the ball he was jacked up over and got flustered and dropped his cue. Lot of balls moved but he didn't rake the table nor was he mad or frustrated. Ref called loss of game on him. Long story short, the game got replayed, ref's dont always know best and some rules dont always make a whole lot of sense.
This here is the biggest problem IMHO.....99% of the time, both players at the table know whether or not the hit was good.....if I think I might foul, I call a ref over, tell him what I am about to do, and what I will be watching that will indicate if the hit is good.....if it's obvious that the ref doesn't understand the logic, I simply play safe and take the possibility of a foul out of it....
Richardson is right on target here - to be an opponent of someone, watch the ref make a bad call in your favor, and then go along with it is just another form of cheating....it's pathetic....
Mybe if the BCAPL Paid the Referees like Professionals, they would get Professionals! I understand the Referees get like 50 BUCKS for a Shift, aget to share a ROOM in the Riveria HELL HOLE!
How many professional pool refs are there in the country/world? My guess is that there aren't nearly enough professional refs to come close to covering an event like the BCA in Vegas. Not a very realistic proposition.
So he's a ninja referee for calling "practicing on another table" That is a foul.
You play on the table you're assigned. I'd be mad at the player who just had to go to another table and "tap" the cue ball. Seems like you really tried to put blame somewhere it just doesn't belong.
You play on the table you're assigned. I'd be mad at the player who just had to go to another table and "tap" the cue ball. Seems like you really tried to put blame somewhere it just doesn't belong.
This happens a lot more at the amateur level than the pro level. In fact I can't remember exactly what match during the US Open 10-Ball but a guy kicked at a ball and it was very questionable and the shooter err'd on the side of a foul. I remember Li Wen Lo shooting a super questionable carom shot against Van Van and let's just say Van Van was very unhappy how it came out. Moral of the story...you just never know.
Fighting is normally my last and final resource and only when i'm cornered will I do it... but in this situation, I probably woulda layed him out.
I see where you're coming from but I don't like it. You would only hold this opinion until it happened to you and your money was wasted at a shot that was taken away.
If they are volunteers then maybe they should be paid so this doesn't happen. If it's a local tournament you're not out airfare, hotel costs, etc...but in this case, ONE mistake is too many.