Wood Movement - Not Shafts

[ScottR]

This thread/question occurred to me as I read the other thread about waxed ebony and wood movement.

I can understand why shafts move after they are completed, because they are not covered the same as a butt. I would guess that more open pores, plus their thinner size, would make them more susceptible to movement.

I also understand about wood movement in components before the cue is finished.

However, after a cue is assembled and finished, how does it "breathe" to transfer moisture in/out and move?

- Do today's finishes breathe to allow moisture transfer?
- Through the wrap/handle, which is not finished?
- Through the end grain at the joint?

It just seems to me that very little of the wood in a finished butt is exposed enough to allow much moisture transfer and movement. But, we all know movement does occur, especially at the A-joint.

Thoughts? Thanks.

Scott

 

[Russell Cues]

Wood will move, sometimes without reason so to speak. Lets say after a cue is completed and all the right steps were taken such as, letting the wood stabilize in your shop, taking small passes, and proper sealing and rest in between turns etc, If the cue is shipped to an area say like Miami from Vegas and Miami is in the middle of the "rainy season" then the humidity will be even farther through the roof. If this is the case the cue could very well take on moisture and move a little. Just to clarify im originally from Miami, born and raised, so Im very familiar with the humidity and its potential affect on a pool cue.

 

[Ken_4fun]

On the butt of the cue, I can sometime feel the veneers and the inlays.

My favorite cue is my Bill Schick, and I was showing it to a friend and he noted that on older cues there is shrinkage (sounds like a Sienfield eposide) and that it is normal. The finish looks perfect but you can feel it with your hands. What has "shrinked"? The wood? The finish? Has the moisture in the cue reduced?

Is this related or a totally different issue?

Ken

 

[qbilder]

Assuming movement is caused by moisture exchange is where the confusion is coming from. The exchange of moisture isn't why wood moves. It is a factor, but only one of several factors. Even waxed completely, squares will warp and crack. It comes from internal stress. There's a certain stress on the wood as it grows in the tree form. I think of it as potential energy. When the tree is cut, then milled into lumber, then milled into squares, each piece of wood has it's own amount of that stress, some more than others. It could be from the tree leaning in one direction so the grain strengthens on one side to compensate, etc. There's lots of reasons. Either way, it's still there after cutting. Each piece will equalize over time, naturally relieving the stress by means of warping or cracking. There's no way of knowing exactly how long it takes, which is why we don't turn new wood into cues right away. We let wood sit for a long time before using, and then take thin cuts periodically to slowly & steadily relieve stress. We hope that when it's all done, it'll be free of stress & will stay straight.

Milling the tree is the easiest way to relieve the majority of stress. Quarter & rift sawing is best but creates lots of waste, therefore making the lumber significantly more expensive. Flat sawing creates the least waste, is most economical, but leaves the wood the most stressed & likely to warp, crack, cup, etc.

Coring the wood immediately relieves it of the majority of stress. So long as the core you put in is stress free & stable, the chances are strong that the piece will move very little if ever, and almost certain not to move once at finish size. But then you are altering the stiffness, weight, tone, etc. of the wood you want to use.

 

[MVPCues]

This thread/question occurred to me as I read the other thread about waxed ebony and wood movement.

I can understand why shafts move after they are completed, because they are not covered the same as a butt. I would guess that more open pores, plus their thinner size, would make them more susceptible to movement.

I also understand about wood movement in components before the cue is finished.

However, after a cue is assembled and finished, how does it "breathe" to transfer moisture in/out and move?

- Do today's finishes breathe to allow moisture transfer?
- Through the wrap/handle, which is not finished?
- Through the end grain at the joint?

It just seems to me that very little of the wood in a finished butt is exposed enough to allow much moisture transfer and movement. But, we all know movement does occur, especially at the A-joint.

Thoughts? Thanks.

Scott

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

A forum builder once stated for a small dent in a butt section you can use the drop of water trick to make it swell a little just like you can on a shaft. He stated cue finishes are not 100% air tight, and it might take a few days for it to swell up. I believe him, I think there is always some gas exchange going on.

Yes, through the wrap handle. The handle under wraps aren't sealed as well.

Through the butt end as well, particularly if there is an interchangeable weight bolt used.

Kelly

 

[RocketQ]

Think about the end grains.

 

[cuesmith]

Think about the end grains.

This is true. 90% of the moisture exchange will occur through the endgrains. Also as another cuemaker mentioned, the moisture is only part of the equasion. The internal stresses are the main thing that cause a piece of wood to move. This is sometimes exascerbated by moisture but not always.

 

[JoeyInCali]

This is true. 90% of the moisture exchange will occur through the endgrains. Also as another cuemaker mentioned, the moisture is only part of the equasion. The internal stresses are the main thing that cause a piece of wood to move. This is sometimes exascerbated by moisture but not always.

And to those fortunate enough to have been taught to go with the flow, not fight it, might be a little more fortunate.

I like coring with straight grain dowels now ( be it maple or rosewood ).

 

[scdiveteam]

And to those fortunate enough to have been taught to go with the flow, not fight it, might be a little more fortunate.

I like coring with straight grain dowels now ( be it maple or rosewood ).

Hi, I agree with Joe. I core my entire cue and have no A-Joint Connection and have never experienced a problem with warping whatsoever. I have used purpleheart, laminated maple & birch dowels and straight grained maple. I do hang my wood after my doweling it and check moisture for sure. I also treat all my blanks with a basic white colored wood sealer, not resolute or nelsonite (Eck!!!). The thought of taking a piece of handle wood and putting a tenon on each end as the nucleus for my cue construction makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up and scares me to death. If that one handle piece moves just a little, people will notice it and there goes your reputation as a cue maker. Who wants to buy cues from the guy who's cues warp!!! Coring is worth the extra time and effort!!! I live in the midwest and have a 4 season environment, I think that helps alot. I noticed on Joe Barringer's video that as soon as he turns a piece that he seems to promote putting CA on it "In a New York Minute" :thumbup:. This may be because he is in a high humidity area and is defensive. I also have noticed that a large majority of Southwest Cues that I have had in my shop are not that straight. This may be a result of the fact that they are made in the desert and are very dry when produced as I am not knocking their workmanship. I just bought a big batch of unfinished Omega DPK Blanks from an estate sale. These cues we built 10 miles from my shop in 1994 and have a maple dowel from the A-Joint to the butt end. These 5 point veneered blanks are at finished dimension and were stored in someone's garage for over 15 years and when I put them between centers on my lathe, not one of them had a bump. I think this and my personal experience with doweling my cues is pretty good evidence to Joey's opinion about going with the flow instead of against it. Rick Geschrey

 

[greyghost]

On the butt of the cue, I can sometime feel the veneers and the inlays.

My favorite cue is my Bill Schick, and I was showing it to a friend and he noted that on older cues there is shrinkage (sounds like a Sienfield eposide) and that it is normal. The finish looks perfect but you can feel it with your hands. What has "shrinked"? The wood? The finish? Has the moisture in the cue reduced?

Is this related or a totally different issue?

Ken

the wood doesn't shrink exactly, the moisture content drops changing the dimensions...you see that often with old cues with a separated ferrule, or on metal rings that seemed to push up through the finish when its just the opposite, the O.D. of the finish moved in tandem with the wood that lost moisture content and fell below the surface of the metal rings.

someone mentioned the wrap being an entry point for moisture, I would think that more moisture would definately enter through the endgrain than the wrap area as THE WOOD UNDER THE WRAP IS SEALED. Don't get me wrong woodglue/elmers smeared on the handle followed by the wrap which is then pressed and sealed with wax, or thinned spray finish or whatever you use probably isn't as air tight as a CA or epoxy but its definately sealed from excessive gain or escape of moisture on the wrap area.

Going to go to the Voodoo lady down in New Orleans and get some good anti-warp gris gris powder. Keep the Obea' from warping my good wood.

back evil spirit!,
Grey Ghost

 

[LGSM3]

:grin:

the wood doesn't shrink exactly, the moisture content drops changing the dimensions...you see that often with old cues with a separated ferrule, or on metal rings that seemed to push up through the finish when its just the opposite, the O.D. of the finish moved in tandem with the wood that lost moisture content and fell below the surface of the metal rings.

someone mentioned the wrap being an entry point for moisture, I would think that more moisture would definately enter through the endgrain than the wrap area as THE WOOD UNDER THE WRAP IS SEALED. Don't get me wrong woodglue/elmers smeared on the handle followed by the wrap which is then pressed and sealed with wax, or thinned spray finish or whatever you use probably isn't as air tight as a CA or epoxy but its definately sealed from excessive gain or escape of moisture on the wrap area.

Going to go to the Voodoo lady down in New Orleans and get some good anti-warp gris gris powder. Keep the Obea' from warping my good wood.

back evil spirit!,
Grey Ghost

Voodoo powder! Just stick a few viagra in a vise until its like powder and mix it with your sealer...should do the trick

 

[poolcuemaster]

Wait a minute while I laugh

Hi, I agree with Joe. I core my entire cue and have no A-Joint Connection and have never experienced a problem with warping whatsoever. I have used purpleheart, laminated maple & birth dowels and straight grained maple. I do hang my wood after my doweling it and check moisture for sure. I also treat all my blanks with a basic white colored wood sealer, not resolute or nelsonite (Eck!!!). The thought of taking a piece of handle wood and putting a tenon on each end as the nucleus for my cue construction makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up and scares me to death. If that one handle piece moves just a little, people will notice it and there goes your reputation as a cue maker. Who wants to buy cues from the guy who's cues warp!!! Coring is worth the extra time and effort!!! I live in the midwest and have a 4 season environment, I think that helps alot. I noticed on Joe Barringer's video that as soon as he turns a piece that he seems to promote putting CA on it "In a New York Minute" :thumbup:. This may be because he is in a high humidity area and is defensive. I also have noticed that a large majority of Southwest Cues that I have had in my shop are not that straight. This may be a result of the fact that they are made in the desert and are very dry when produced as I am not knocking their workmanship. I just bought a big batch of unfinished Omega DPK Blanks from an estate sale. These cues we built 10 miles from my shop in 1994 and have a maple dowel from the A-Joint to the butt end. These 5 point veneered blanks are at finished dimension and were stored in someone's garage for over 15 years and when I put them between centers on my lathe, not one of them had a bump. I think this and my personal experience with doweling my cues is pretty good evidence to Joey's opinion about going with the flow instead of against it. Rick Geschrey

Rick that birth dowel thing has me scared silly and I can't stop laughing.--Leonard

I know you were refering to birch, just kidding with you.

 

[scdiveteam]

Rick that birth dowel thing has me scared silly and I can't stop laughing.--Leonard

I know you were refering to birch, just kidding with you.

Thanks Leonard, your are very perceptive! I tried the birth dowel thing but gave it up because I couldn't decide how to cut the umbilical cord, live tooling or single point carbide. Now a days I just adopt the dowels.:happydance: Rick G

 

[ScottR]

Great information, guys. Thanks!

Scott