World 10 Ball Silence

[JB Cases]

The WPA has nothing to do with getting TV coverage for pool. The only thing I see them doing is keeping a calendar of events and ranking players who played in their sanctioned events. What's the use of that player ranking anyway? Did they use it at all in their recent sanctioned event, the WTBC?

Your so called "state of disarray" has been going on forever. Maybe it's time to change the system? Got it? Change....the....system

Changing the system implies that there is a system to be changed.

Why don't you simply focus on the BMPAP agenda and force the issue by holding tournaments that BSCP can't compete with. I am certain that there has to be legal remedies available to you when the "governing" body of a sport is not meeting the needs of it's constituents.

I still don't understand why Yen and the rest of the board can't be voted out.

But even at that surely you can sue them? In America we can sue anyone for anything.

Why not bring your grievances to court and let the court decide what is to be done? If you win then Yen's gone and you're happy. If you lose then you simply do your thing until the APBU/WPA is forced to do something about their member the BSCP.

Why is it so hard to understand that the WPA cannot simply extract Yen from his position. That they publicly backed him in regards to the prize money is something that they probably shouldn't have done without ironclad security but it's done. I am sure that they will be much more careful in the future about which public statements they make.

What you are dong though is putting us outsiders on the spot and asking us to choose Yen/BSCP or the BMPAP. It doesn't work that way, it's not our fight. Turn the tables and we would be remiss to ask you to publicly denounce the BCA/VNEA/APA/TAP or whatever group we were arguing with. Whether or not your claims are valid it's unfair to ask your friends in the pool community to pick sides. It's like a divorce.

Why can't you understand that Mike and Jerry and Jay and others have a good relationship with Yen? Why are you drilling them to denounce him? Do you have any idea how hard it is to denounce a friend based on a third party's grievance?

When I had a legal dispute with Instroke Germany over the trademark I held out for a long time from asking people to choose sides. When I did it immediately caused a rift in my relationship with several customers. To this day some of those relationships are not mended. If I had to do it over again I would just have pursued it in court and not through my relationships. I won (sort of) in court, but some of the customers I never regained. Had I not involved them then they would still be purchasing from me today.

Think about it Bandido. You are very passionate on this subject and I feel that your side is right. But don't make us choose sides. Win it the old fashioned way with a straight up gunfight with your opponent.

 

[pro9dg]

Good advice

I would tend to agree with many of the points in John's post.

You are not winning the propoganda war. So a fresh approach is needed. The fact that Mike is so diametrically opposed to your views means that you will make it an uphill srtuggle on this forum. But he too has valid points.

 

[poolchady]

Wu Chia-Ching didn't receive the fund as of today. Maybe tomorrow he will see the fund sitting in his banking account?
Why are you guys acting like "Everybody already got paid" ?
Maybe all US players got paid because their prize money are less?
Did Darren Appleton get paid ?

 

[pro9dg]

Mike, even if in the Philippines it looks like pool is in a bad shape, locally, it is actually healthier. The WTB made it look bad because of the over-eagerness either to earn from it or to jump on the competition. The posts since early this year about Philippine pool politics also made it look bad. But the offshoot is more local competitions than ever in a year's time, and that is a good bottom line.

It is healthier to have competition among promoters, as long as there is a fair playing field. Competition has a semblance to conviction, regardless of the goal being money or development of the sport.

In the Philippines, there is one factor that should be an example to everybody - the unity of players. Two factions are better than apathy among a single group of "constituents". Movement follows as the promoters are selling one group, making it easy to string up tournaments.

It will not sink in well to some of the folks here, but standing up for what is right is another example displayed by the Filipinos. It would be tiring to delve on all the issues again, but the bottom line is that the WPA structure has no capacity to contain issues regarding the fairness of how the country representatives run things under the WPA banner. Getting WPA to involve itself with really helping in promoting pool is non-existent in terms of exposure to risks. Hence, they will never touch TV negotiations with their current set-up.

WPA has a figure leadership, and it can exist for the sport as Royalty exists in the UK. But we all cannot count on the WPA when it comes to the nitty-gritty of the realities in the pool world. If you want to come up with a tournament and you want them to sanction it for what sanctioning is worth, then create the package and then if they will like it, their nod of approval will cost you sanction fees. But underneath all that, we all have to solve our own problems.

Now it is up to us whether we want to rectify things if we see that the WPA set-up is not right. This is where Doug has my admiration. As a promoter, he is practically a single voice in Europe that risks a counter strike from the WPA. What he may gain is far more important than the snags that he may encounter in trying to correct the situation. If we listen to him, we will easily identify where the WPA is more limiting than enhancing. I get e-mails from other European organizers who have no choice but to adhere to WPA because they do not have the leverage, and it is understandable. Well but neither has Doug.

The real problem with pool is that there is no unity among players and that the leadership and most all of the people are merely fence sitters when it comes to solving the problems in pool. Everybody seems to know what to do but there is no show of hands when there is risk concerned. If one will not risk his reputation for what is right like Doug does, then we will truly leave the players exactly where they are now.

The three people wanting to save professional pool in the USA will be controversial, because saving professional pool will mean veering away from the Royalty in pool. Professional pool should know no limits in its re-birth. Promoters and players will automatically seek sanctions and rules and other guidelines when the time is right. Our current template is very outdated.

I am not opposed to the concept of the WPA. It is just that there is no mechanism to protect the players rights or for their views to be heard.

The recent dismissal of the BMPAP players achievements does not indicate that there will be any change in this policy.

The players are just Cannon Fodder. But if they will not stand together then what hope is there.

 

[JB Cases]

I am not opposed to the concept of the WPA. It is just that there is no mechanism to protect the players rights or for their views to be heard.

The recent dismissal of the BMPAP players achievements does not indicate that there will be any change in this policy.

The players are just Cannon Fodder. But if they will not stand together then what hope is there.

The thing to understand is that the WPA are not the ones who govern the BMPAP players. They can't include or dismiss them without violating the structure the WPA is founded upon.

The WPA structure is based on soccer's structure I think. I doubt that FIFA is going to go to bat for a breakaway group of players who dislike the German Soccer Federation's management of the sport in Germany.

But for all I know there might very well be some kind of formal way to lodge a complaint that the WPA can act upon. I have no idea. What I do know is that rebellion from outside rarely succeeds when the rebels are only offering up how bad the existing system is without a clear plan for how they would be better.

What does it matter to appeal to the powerless on the sidelines? Surely the WPA/APBU isn't on AZ trying to wade through all the noise to get to some substantive grievances.

And for that matter what does the APBU have to say about all this? The APBU is the next in line up the chain of command?

What about it Bandido? Have you spoken to the APBU? What is their position on the dispute?

Believe me pool fans on this board are about tapped out when it comes to emotional support for the players. We hear you, we are on your side. But we aren't the friend that has a free shoulder every time you want to cry about your troubles. If the players won't do it for themselves then don't expect the fans to do it. It's enough that we give you our attention when you play.

 

[JB Cases]

Wu Chia-Ching didn't receive the fund as of today. Maybe tomorrow he will see the fund sitting in his banking account?
Why are you guys acting like "Everybody already got paid" ?
Maybe all US players got paid because their prize money are less?
Did Darren Appleton get paid ?

No one is acting like everyone got paid. We are all anxiously awaiting good news that all players got paid.

 

[JB Cases]

I am not opposed to the concept of the WPA. It is just that there is no mechanism to protect the players rights or for their views to be heard.

The recent dismissal of the BMPAP players achievements does not indicate that there will be any change in this policy.

The players are just Cannon Fodder. But if they will not stand together then what hope is there.

One thing I see as a problem is that there is no representation for professional level players in the WPA. The WPA maintains a "world ranking" that is comprised mostly of top tier players. These players are a level that should transcend country when it comes to allocation of spots in top tier tournaments.

They should have representation at the WPA level where complaints can be brought, investigated and acted upon.

The thing is that the WPA was formed to bring pool to the Olympics. As such it is comprised of a group of federations, who are in turn comprised of a group of national federations. The WPA only acts as an umbrella organization to show unity in pool worldwide. The WPA is then itself a member of the WCBS which stands for the World Confederation of Billiard Sports and this organization ties together the major disciplines of Snooker, Carom, and Pool. Thus other than making rules and holding/sanctioning world championships the WPA really has no mandate or authority to govern players at the national level. They really don't represent the players. They represent the various organizations and federations that make up their membership.

got to go - will finish it later......

 

[Roy Steffensen]

No one is acting like everyone got paid. We are all anxiously awaiting good news that all players got paid.

some are acting like things are ok, imo...

Waiting for some Europeans to check their accounts now.

 

[jay helfert]

I keep hearing about conflicts of interest on here, and I'd like to make one simple point. There are, and always have, been conflicts of interest throughout the pool world. The same people who own the billiard companies are usually the ones making the decisions at the highest levels of various billiard associations. And it has been that way forever.

And it is often these same people at the helm of the pool associations who are producing events as well. My experience in the pool world is that people range from position to position as they see fit. One day a manufacturer of equipment, the next day the President of a billiard association, the next day a promoter of professional tournaments. There is no delineation between roles required or asked for. In the pool world, one can still write their own ticket and take any job that appeals to them.

There are no sanctions against someone promoting a pool event just because they hold a position on a governing body. At least not to my knowledge has there ever been any such criteria in place. If so it is news to me. And what devices are in place from within any of pool's governing bodies to stop anyone from producing events. It didn't seem to stop Trudough from exploiting the pool world for a year or so. The infomercial king rode in on his white horse and was last seen riding out on a donkey.

My point being that anyone from within or without the pool world can operate with immunity. Whether they succeed or not is based on the trust the players and the fans place in them. There is no existing process in place to stop any potential conflicts in interest and it is doubtful that there will be anytime soon. This has been the status quo in this industry for as long as I've been around.

 

[monski]

You do not know Makabenta's finances, but the WTB was a collaboration between Raya and BSCP,

What does collaboration mean here? You mean business partner? Or Joint Venture on the business? Is BSCP getting a share in the money (assuming there was money made) that the WTB made?

and BSCP is supposed to make sure (as a governing body) that Raya pays up everybody before it spends money on itself. But that simply takes Makabenta to look into the mirror in the mornings and talk to himself.

You mean as a business partner, it is BSCP's role to do an audit on the Raya event? Is the funding for what BSCP will use for the Juniors coming from the proceeds from the WTB?

I'm getting confused...

 

[monski]

I keep hearing about conflicts of interest on here, and I'd like to make one simple point. There are, and always have, been conflicts of interest throughout the pool world. The same people who own the billiard companies are usually the ones making the decisions at the highest levels of various billiard associations. And it has been that way forever.

And it is often these same people at the helm of the pool associations who are producing events as well. My experience in the pool world is that people range from position to position as they see fit. One day a manufacturer of equipment, the next day the President of a billiard association, the next day a promoter of professional tournaments. There is no delineation between roles required or asked for. In the pool world, one can still write their own ticket and take any job that appeals to them.

There are no sanctions against someone promoting a pool event just because they hold a position on a governing body. At least not to my knowledge has there ever been any such criteria in place. If so it is news to me. And what devices are in place from within any of pool's governing bodies to stop anyone from producing events. It didn't seem to stop Trudough from exploiting the pool world for a year or so. The infomercial king rode in on his white horse and was last seen riding out on a donkey.

My point being that anyone from within or without the pool world can operate with immunity. Whether they succeed or not is based on the trust the players and the fans place in them. There is no existing process in place to stop any potential conflicts in interest and it is doubtful that there will be anytime soon. This has been the status quo in this industry for as long as I've been around.

--------------------

I think it is just natural for any organization, association, governing body, to have the stakeholders as members, officers and/or sponsors. They are the ones who should be there since they are the ones who have a stake.

Its not a conflict of interest in itself. IMO, its is more in the line of promoting a greater interest which gives the members and stakeholders the reason to join an association or federation. The greater interest here for me is organizing pool to a level where the members can have a venue and opportunity to excel in their chosen field (whether player or equipment supplier or promoter).

If a conflict of interest arises from an incident where players were unduly disadvantaged or favored over other players, or say en equipment dealer was squeezed out unjustly from sponsoring an event or one promoter's event is being favored another promoter's event... then I believe that these should be brought to the attention of the proper court or venue.

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Just confirmed a minute ago:

Darren Appleton has NOT received payment.

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Lee Chenman, living in Hong Kong, has not received his payment yet. Strange, since it is the same time-zone as Manila.

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Berry from the Netherlands has not paid me, or answered pm's, for losing the bet regarding payment of the World Ten Ball.

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Why did Raya pay the Americans and the Filipinos first?

Could it be that Yen paid the Filipinos simply because the newspapers in the Philippines started to ask lots of question, and that Pulpul was in the news so much?

Could it be that the Americans got paid simply because Yen assumed that an article about Americans being paid could buy him some time?

When are the deadlines for BilliardsDigest and Insidepool? Perhaps they should make some new articles about World Ten Ball...

Why isn't Yen making some new columns for AZBilliards, bragging about how well done the World Ten Ball was?

Can't Ted Lerner do an interview with the manager of Darren, who happens to live in Manila? He can ask him what he feels about Raya/Yen and the missing payment... Oh, that's true, I forgot. Ted is paid by Yen...

 

[quanz]

I still don't understand why Yen and the rest of the board can't be voted out.

But even at that surely you can sue them? In America we can sue anyone for anything.

Why not bring your grievances to court and let the court decide what is to be done? If you win then Yen's gone and you're happy. If you lose then you simply do your thing until the APBU/WPA is forced to do something about their member the BSCP.

My wild guess is the same problem we have here in Indonesia. Corrupted political system n goverment. Yes you can sue anyone for anything, but it doesn't mean you will win it. Money rules.

 

[sputnik]

I keep hearing about conflicts of interest on here, and I'd like to make one simple point. There are, and always have, been conflicts of interest throughout the pool world. The same people who own the billiard companies are usually the ones making the decisions at the highest levels of various billiard associations. And it has been that way forever.

And it is often these same people at the helm of the pool associations who are producing events as well. My experience in the pool world is that people range from position to position as they see fit. One day a manufacturer of equipment, the next day the President of a billiard association, the next day a promoter of professional tournaments. There is no delineation between roles required or asked for. In the pool world, one can still write their own ticket and take any job that appeals to them.

There are no sanctions against someone promoting a pool event just because they hold a position on a governing body. At least not to my knowledge has there ever been any such criteria in place. If so it is news to me. And what devices are in place from within any of pool's governing bodies to stop anyone from producing events. It didn't seem to stop Trudough from exploiting the pool world for a year or so. The infomercial king rode in on his white horse and was last seen riding out on a donkey.

My point being that anyone from within or without the pool world can operate with immunity. Whether they succeed or not is based on the trust the players and the fans place in them. There is no existing process in place to stop any potential conflicts in interest and it is doubtful that there will be anytime soon. This has been the status quo in this industry for as long as I've been around.

Jay, being acceptable all these years does not make it right. Perhaps it is time for a tune-up and see if the engine will run smoother.

 

[bandido]

Think about it Bandido. You are very passionate on this subject and I feel that your side is right. But don't make us choose sides. Win it the old fashioned way with a straight up gunfight with your opponent.

John, they are not just OUR opponent. Don't you remember that this all started because of injustices done to players? Ours was more of reporting what's happening here that can affect you all. And it already is! We did put a finger in the hole on the dike and called for help.

I'm sure that, from the post before this, paying just the Americans and Filipinos is more of a propaganda to buy them time. The hole is getting bigger John and we'd hate to yell "RUN!".

Thank you John. I do understand what you're saying but this isn't just about RAYA/BSCP vs BMPAP. BMPAP was born from the injustices doled out by BSCP/RAYA. Injustices that were brought to court and other authorities' attention. Alex wasn't taken out as the Philippine representative to the Guinness Tour by the Promoter, Guinness, but by BSCP/RAYA for their own personal reason. Guinness got Alex back in their tour bypassing BSCP/RAYA/WPA/APBU.

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Now it is confirmed that top 3, Darren Appleton, Chia Ching Wu (someone posted about Wu earlier in this thread) and Niels Feijen are all waiting for payment from Raya... None of them have received the payment today.

Now the banks are about to close in Europe, so Darren and Niels will not receive it before earliest tomorrow, Tuesday.

 

[bandido]

My wild guess is the same problem we have here in Indonesia. Corrupted political system n goverment. Yes you can sue anyone for anything, but it doesn't mean you will win it. Money rules.

Yup, 15%! Mentioned in one of my earlier post.