World 10 Ball Silence
- Thread starter pro9dg
- Start date
pro9dg said:
Doug, let's not forget an essential factor in successful pool tournaments - the viewership ratings that bring in the sponsors.
9-Ball ain't broke indeed, and the game is battle-tested. The format of the game and the golden break gives the TV producers the leeway to end the program earlier than expected for interviews - instead of being abruptly cut after shaking hands. Even though the media values in terms of airtime is less in 9-Ball, the game makes viewership more stable.
While it is true that to the player, 10-Ball may be a better game, 9-Ball goes better with TV (IMO after watching the WTB). And TV is essential in ensuring the success of a tournament in terms of making everybody happy. 10-Ball is a beautiful game to play, but it costs more in terms of airtime and airtime ain't cheap. Perhaps if and when Internet TV can sustain income from 10-Ball tournaments, only then will it be viable.
I don't know. Perhaps if the WTBC had been more planned out in TV production, it might have worked out better. Maybe they should have lessened the number of games. Being abruptly cut is the downside of merely purchasing airtime. Has anyone figured out the average time it takes for a race to 9 in 9-Ball and 10-Ball?
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pro9dg said:
I didn't know that. That's pretty cool, provided that the players get paid of course
I wonder however why that is? Why not charge an entry fee? And why have qualifiers then if you aren't charging entry fees to the invited participants?
What I mean here is that if it's the World Championship and the spots are earned through performance in your host countries/federations then why not contest it with only those players who have earned the right to be there through that performance.
Why allow someone who hasn't earned their spot the chance to get in through a qualifier?
I know, I know, Ronnie Alcano wouldn't have gotten in were it not for the qualifiers. But that is exactly my point I guess. Someone plays their heart out all year to insure their place at the WC and then they have to face qualifiers for whom it's like any other tournament. I mean that they pay an entry fee and have to play their way into the main event.
It's like warriors without a country. Are there qualifiers worldwide that players can play in? Or are they just held near the event site at the event time?
I think all players ought to pay an entry fee or no qualifiers ought to be allowed in.
JB Cases said:
The same entry fee payable qualifying system has also been employed in at least the last three World 8 ball Championships and 9 ball Championships, so there is ample precedent for that having taken place in the WTBC.
Whether it is "right" in principle to do so is another matter and I'm sure there would be quite a split of opinion on this, with many taking your view and others the opposite view. However irrespective of that opinion fact is that's the way it is done at the moment in all WC's, not just this one.
My guess is that the distribution of income raised from entry fees for local qualifying events immediately prior to the event would be an element taken into consideration when the organisers/promoters are reaching deals with those who run the qualifiers. In World 8 Ball Champs, 9 Ball champs and WTBC I'd guess that these entry fees don't form part of the prize fund which is probably unaffected by whether qualifiers take place and if they do take place is unaffected by how many take place.
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Come off the stall
With todays technology it should be a done deal in 30 minutes!
This two weeks is just a stall to get all the players out of town & it is BS. If you win a set for 500 you don't wait two weeks for the dough.
The organizers are no more trustworthy than anyone else.
With todays technology it should be a done deal in 30 minutes!
This two weeks is just a stall to get all the players out of town & it is BS. If you win a set for 500 you don't wait two weeks for the dough.
The organizers are no more trustworthy than anyone else.
Black-Balled said:
It has been free to enter both 8 and 9 Ball World Championships since they started in 2005 and 1999 respectivelymemikey said:
memikey said:
I have run the qualifying tournaments for the World 8 Ball in the UAE since the event started and the World 9 Ball in Cardiff from 1999 to 2002 plua the 2003 qualifiers in Taipei.
In each case the money from entry fees was used to pay prize money and accommodation for the winners of these events. In addition players placed 2nd through to 16th would all be paid an identical amount. This enabled these players to defray some or all of their costs during the five days of qualifying.
This amounted to around 75-80% of the entry fees.
The rest I kept.
pro9dg said:
I like that last line, "The rest I kept". You get a gold star for honesty Doug!
By the way, I talked to Shane and he got his money two days ago, $4,250 for 9th place. So I guess all the Americans got their money. I haven't heard back from Darren yet. He's the big one, 100K!
I am in agreement with you to a point here. Unfortunately, all of these things can be trumped by one thing. "The Soft Break"
I would argue that the primary focus in last year's WPC was not 9-ball breaks, classy runouts, creative combinations or safety play. It was the soft break guaranteeing the same ball going in on every break and the players shooting shape for the next ball in the side or corner and running out a pretty simple pattern from there.
10-Ball does away with the soft break (or at least tries to)
Mike
I would argue that the primary focus in last year's WPC was not 9-ball breaks, classy runouts, creative combinations or safety play. It was the soft break guaranteeing the same ball going in on every break and the players shooting shape for the next ball in the side or corner and running out a pretty simple pattern from there.
10-Ball does away with the soft break (or at least tries to)
Mike
pro9dg said:
If 9-ball is so good for TV, then why can't the game get anything positive going along TV lines?
The USA has the WPBA on ESPN because the WPBA pays the production costs and then gives the finished product to ESPN and retains no ownership.
The IPT was on VS and that went nowhere.
The game of 9-ball is not the wonderful tv product that you make it out to be. And if a player can be guaranteed the same ball on the soft break every rack and is then able to play shape on their next ball in the rack, I would argue that it is broken.
Are golfers guaranteed a 250 yard perfect drive to the center of the fairway each time?
Are baseball players guaranteed a 90 mph fast ball to their sweet spot on the first pitch each time?
Mike
The USA has the WPBA on ESPN because the WPBA pays the production costs and then gives the finished product to ESPN and retains no ownership.
The IPT was on VS and that went nowhere.
The game of 9-ball is not the wonderful tv product that you make it out to be. And if a player can be guaranteed the same ball on the soft break every rack and is then able to play shape on their next ball in the rack, I would argue that it is broken.
Are golfers guaranteed a 250 yard perfect drive to the center of the fairway each time?
Are baseball players guaranteed a 90 mph fast ball to their sweet spot on the first pitch each time?
Mike
sputnik said:
AzHousePro said:
With respect Mike, these are the hours that ESPN alone covered the 2007 World 9 Ball Championship excluding repeats, highlights, news items etc
ESPN Asia 227 hrs 30 min 55s
ESPN India 132 hrs 11 min 34s
ESPN Philippines 198 hrs 03 min 55s
ESPN Taiwan 217 hrs 16 min 49s
ESPN China 122 hrs 50 min 20s
STAR India 33 hrs 59 min 42s
Overall Total 931 hrs 53 min 15s
Then there a a multitude of TV outlets in other countries (I have the data if you are not convinced).
Have you ever been to Taiwan? When I was last there there was local 9 Ball on every day plus magazine type programs. The same when I was last in Manila.
How many really watched the WTBC? Infinitely less I'll wager.
pro9dg said:
Yep. Thanks Doug for that honest info. Arrangements of that nature were of course what I was hinting at in my reply to JB in assurance to him that qualifier entry fees didn't normally form part of any published WC prize funds.
From discussions with others I think there may have been a lot more than JB under a specific misconception or just plain not knowing how the qualifiers and associated entry fees fitted into the equation.
What do you feel about his related opinions that on principle there is an inherent unfairness in players being allowed to qualify locally immediately prior to the event and that all the slots for all the WC's should consist solely of invited players who are nominated by regional associations based on each region's own qualification criteria? Also, in your extensive experience, what would be the practicality of this?
Mikey, the Sage of the Middle East - I think that it is essential to have the qualifiers immediately before the main event.
There are many unfair qualifying systems throughout the world (don't all shout at once) and this gives players who suffer under this a chance.
A case in point - last year in the World 8 Ball the sponsor wanted to give Marcus Chamat and Fabio Petroni wild cards. They had played every tournament in the UAE and had helped enomously with PR work in the past.
But the EPBF blocked their entry and they had to come and qualify. Marcus made it at his first attempt but Fabio missed out by one match.
At a local level there were always high numbers - so the law of supply and demand was a testament to whether they were necessary. Additionally they create initial interest in the tournament.
There are many unfair qualifying systems throughout the world (don't all shout at once) and this gives players who suffer under this a chance.
A case in point - last year in the World 8 Ball the sponsor wanted to give Marcus Chamat and Fabio Petroni wild cards. They had played every tournament in the UAE and had helped enomously with PR work in the past.
But the EPBF blocked their entry and they had to come and qualify. Marcus made it at his first attempt but Fabio missed out by one match.
At a local level there were always high numbers - so the law of supply and demand was a testament to whether they were necessary. Additionally they create initial interest in the tournament.
Were any players BESIDES the Americans paid yet?
pro9dg said:
Get no argument out of me bud, except on the 'sage' part......the 'onion' possibly closer to the mark........have made a few eyes water.......and either way I usually get stuffed at pool :smile:
Hopefully there will now be enough information for JB to read in response to his comments when he drags himself out of a Chinese bed in a couple of hours time. The Gin-Sur-Mer's golf's just finished on the telly after a long rain delay and needless to say that after all that time, in true sod's law style the man I backed and stopped up to watch (Ken Duke @ 8/1) lost out by one shot, so I'm off to bed to cry meself to sleep.
You're basing pool's popularity, as a viable marketing tool, from Corporate USA's acceptance of it. Cow pie throwing, log rolling, dogs retrieving rubber ducks and hot dog eating gets Corporate USA's attention more than Pool there.AzHousePro said:
The best chance for US Pool Fans to ever watch live Pool on a monitor is through events fed through cable and internet and mostly from outside the USA.
Pool is not even a secondary sporting event in the USA so how can you even fathom the intricacies of TV Marketing of Pool?
So, Pool not being popular in the US makes me unable to understand how complicated marketing it to TV is?
I would think that pool not being popular in the US is one of the exact reasons why it is hard to market it to tv.
Another big obstacle to marketing pool to tv is the fact that there is no "one entity" who can market the game to tv. Who can go to ESPN and convince them to pay money for tv video? They are getting it for free from the WPBA. So why should they pay someone else for it?
Who can go to Fox Sports or VS and convince them to spend money on pool? If NBC pays for the PGA tour's video rights, then they are pretty sure that CBS is not going to be broadcasting another PGA event a week later.
So, who is that party? The UPA? The BCA? The WPA? I think the answer is the WPA. But only when all of the other groups within the WPA are working towards the same goal and the game is on board behind the WPA.
Pool can't even get along within individual countries. The players in the Philippines are boycotting World Championships because the players were all together one night at One Side and decided they were worried about where their prize money was coming from. The USA has a handful of players who wants to boycott the BCA because they want to support the current UPA regime. There are at least 3 people in the USA right now who are talking about how they are going to save Professional Pool as long as all of the players play by their rules.
And where does that leave the players? Exactly where they are right now.
Mike
I would think that pool not being popular in the US is one of the exact reasons why it is hard to market it to tv.
Another big obstacle to marketing pool to tv is the fact that there is no "one entity" who can market the game to tv. Who can go to ESPN and convince them to pay money for tv video? They are getting it for free from the WPBA. So why should they pay someone else for it?
Who can go to Fox Sports or VS and convince them to spend money on pool? If NBC pays for the PGA tour's video rights, then they are pretty sure that CBS is not going to be broadcasting another PGA event a week later.
So, who is that party? The UPA? The BCA? The WPA? I think the answer is the WPA. But only when all of the other groups within the WPA are working towards the same goal and the game is on board behind the WPA.
Pool can't even get along within individual countries. The players in the Philippines are boycotting World Championships because the players were all together one night at One Side and decided they were worried about where their prize money was coming from. The USA has a handful of players who wants to boycott the BCA because they want to support the current UPA regime. There are at least 3 people in the USA right now who are talking about how they are going to save Professional Pool as long as all of the players play by their rules.
And where does that leave the players? Exactly where they are right now.
Mike
bandido said:
SUPERSTAR said:
Exactly the thinking when they pushed through with the WTBC without first addressing the local issues. Wolves corraling the herd to the killing zone, spreading them then picking them off one at a time.
Did everyone get paid or was it just the high-profile ones like the Americans, Filipinos and Darren Appleton, who most likely are to create a lot of noise, that were paid? Are you aware that their Prize Money only comes to 5M Pesos of the 19M prize fund? Were everyone paid?
Looks like "Street Magic" is a real popular program here.
Like I said, you know nothing about TV MArketing of Pool. You keep targetting ESPN and you haven't even broken through the local networks. TV will only buy events that will make them money from sponsors wanting to air their ads during such event. Were you just talking about "airtime fillers" (freebies)? Cow pie and toilet seat tossing already got pool beat in that area there in the US.AzHousePro said:
As in any business venture it's gross income minus expenses = net income. Being positive net income as the target. Networks look for this positive net income for them whether it be from sponsor participation or the promoter/event producer buying their airtime. Now, do you understand why the WTBC's marketability value to sponsors dropped? It had no local draw. They can stay in denial, their wormy carrot is worthless.
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