World 10 Ball Silence

AzHousePro said:
Another big obstacle to marketing pool to tv is the fact that there is no "one entity" who can market the game to tv. Who can go to ESPN and convince them to pay money for tv video? They are getting it for free from the WPBA. So why should they pay someone else for it?

Who can go to Fox Sports or VS and convince them to spend money on pool? If NBC pays for the PGA tour's video rights, then they are pretty sure that CBS is not going to be broadcasting another PGA event a week later.

So, who is that party? The UPA? The BCA? The WPA? I think the answer is the WPA. But only when all of the other groups within the WPA are working towards the same goal and the game is on board behind the WPA.

Pool can't even get along within individual countries. The players in the Philippines are boycotting World Championships because the players were all together one night at One Side and decided they were worried about where their prize money was coming from. The USA has a handful of players who wants to boycott the BCA because they want to support the current UPA regime. There are at least 3 people in the USA right now who are talking about how they are going to save Professional Pool as long as all of the players play by their rules.

And where does that leave the players? Exactly where they are right now.

Mike

Mike, even if in the Philippines it looks like pool is in a bad shape, locally, it is actually healthier. The WTB made it look bad because of the over-eagerness either to earn from it or to jump on the competition. The posts since early this year about Philippine pool politics also made it look bad. But the offshoot is more local competitions than ever in a year's time, and that is a good bottom line.

It is healthier to have competition among promoters, as long as there is a fair playing field. Competition has a semblance to conviction, regardless of the goal being money or development of the sport.

In the Philippines, there is one factor that should be an example to everybody - the unity of players. Two factions are better than apathy among a single group of "constituents". Movement follows as the promoters are selling one group, making it easy to string up tournaments.

It will not sink in well to some of the folks here, but standing up for what is right is another example displayed by the Filipinos. It would be tiring to delve on all the issues again, but the bottom line is that the WPA structure has no capacity to contain issues regarding the fairness of how the country representatives run things under the WPA banner. Getting WPA to involve itself with really helping in promoting pool is non-existent in terms of exposure to risks. Hence, they will never touch TV negotiations with their current set-up.

WPA has a figure leadership, and it can exist for the sport as Royalty exists in the UK. But we all cannot count on the WPA when it comes to the nitty-gritty of the realities in the pool world. If you want to come up with a tournament and you want them to sanction it for what sanctioning is worth, then create the package and then if they will like it, their nod of approval will cost you sanction fees. But underneath all that, we all have to solve our own problems.

Now it is up to us whether we want to rectify things if we see that the WPA set-up is not right. This is where Doug has my admiration. As a promoter, he is practically a single voice in Europe that risks a counter strike from the WPA. What he may gain is far more important than the snags that he may encounter in trying to correct the situation. If we listen to him, we will easily identify where the WPA is more limiting than enhancing. I get e-mails from other European organizers who have no choice but to adhere to WPA because they do not have the leverage, and it is understandable. Well but neither has Doug.

The real problem with pool is that there is no unity among players and that the leadership and most all of the people are merely fence sitters when it comes to solving the problems in pool. Everybody seems to know what to do but there is no show of hands when there is risk concerned. If one will not risk his reputation for what is right like Doug does, then we will truly leave the players exactly where they are now.

The three people wanting to save professional pool in the USA will be controversial, because saving professional pool will mean veering away from the Royalty in pool. Professional pool should know no limits in its re-birth. Promoters and players will automatically seek sanctions and rules and other guidelines when the time is right. Our current template is very outdated.
 
Bandido, you are stretching here. Do you really think Yen is going to pay only a portion of the players and screw the rest?

Wait, don't answer that.

Mike

bandido said:
Did everyone get paid or was it just the high-profile ones like the Americans, Filipinos and Darren Appleton, who most likely are to create a lot of noise, that were paid? Are you aware that their Prize Money only comes to 5M Pesos of the 19M prize fund? Were everyone paid?
 
Bandido, this is strictly your opinion. Your opinion is that pool in the Philippines is in a much better place because of the BMPAP. The rest of the world sees a petty fight going on between you and the BSCP.

And TV stations and sponsors outside of the Philippines fall into the "rest of the world" category.

Mike
 
AzHousePro said:
Bandido, you are stretching here. Do you really think Yen is going to pay only a portion of the players and screw the rest?

Wait, don't answer that.

Mike
As of press time, only a select few has been paid and that's verified. You say that you've verified American pay-outs, did you care to verify the rest?
 
Okay, tell me if this is mudslinging or policing...

BSCP/Raya has announced that there will be three players to be sent to Nevada for the World Junior Championships at the end of this month. The delegation will be headed by Makabenta and will have three media people with it.

They have to make sure that before they go spend bucks on airplanes and hotels, ALL the players of WTB, including the referrees should be fully paid. Not until all players are fully paid will I stop making noise on this issue.

Also, their lead player, Banares, is definitely over 19 years old (I think 24 years old). Revo David is 19 but he is in the BMPAP camp.

They announced Manalo and Gabica to be sent to Asia 10-Ball in Korea... without qualifiers again.

There is a continuation in their momentum to abuse WPA accreditation in selecting AMATEUR and PROFESSIONAL players abroad according to their whims - compliments of the WPA!
 
AzHousePro said:
Bandido, this is strictly your opinion. Your opinion is that pool in the Philippines is in a much better place because of the BMPAP.
Apparently.

AzHousePro said:
The rest of the world sees a petty fight going on between you and the BSCP.
For now to some.

AzHousePro said:
And TV stations and sponsors outside of the Philippines fall into the "rest of the world" category.

Mike
Of course! Like you said it's outside the Philippines. How to deal with those, TV stations and sponsors outside of the Philippines, have been very difficult for the "rest of the world". Isn't that apparent too? You still think that TV should approach you, the event promoters, and beg for your event (content)? That era, network jousting against each other for contents, is long gone. The dust have settled and desirable contents have been identified. The era too of piracy and/or outbidding other networks for prime contents is waning and this era is what boosted the value of these prime contents. Somehow this seems to be very hard for you to grasp. Pool is not in the same league as football, basketball, golf, soccer, baseball or even MMA. But all the aforementioned went through growing pains but they've identified the obstacles that they need to overcome. Pool is still living hindered by these obstacles thus never even reaching "growing pains" stage. You guys can stay there 'til you fade away.

In denial? How about enlightened?
 
sputnik said:
Okay, tell me if this is mudslinging or policing...

BSCP/Raya has announced that there will be three players to be sent to Nevada for the World Junior Championships at the end of this month. The delegation will be headed by Makabenta and will have three media people with it.

They have to make sure that before they go spend bucks on airplanes and hotels, ALL the players of WTB, including the referrees should be fully paid. Not until all players are fully paid will I stop making noise on this issue.

Also, their lead player, Banares, is definitely over 19 years old (I think 24 years old). Revo David is 19 but he is in the BMPAP camp.

They announced Manalo and Gabica to be sent to Asia 10-Ball in Korea... without qualifiers again.

There is a continuation in their momentum to abuse WPA accreditation in selecting AMATEUR and PROFESSIONAL players abroad according to their whims - compliments of the WPA!

Don't forget what they still owe the PICC. PICC earnings go to its maintenance expense instead of having such expense drawn from taxpayer money. Besides, if they don't pay this will they still be able to hold the next WTBC at the PICC?
 
Jerry and I were fielding calls from American players asking about their payouts since we are handling the communications between the BCA and the players.

When we wanted to check on player payments, we called US players.

Emails were also sent to foreign players, but the payments to US players were made after banks closed on Friday in Europe. So, they could not find out until Monday.

So, did we CARE to verify the rest? Yes, we did. And we tried.

Mike

bandido said:
As of press time, only a select few has been paid and that's verified. You say that you've verified American pay-outs, did you care to verify the rest?
 
While I am certainly not a representative for Raya in any way, I can apply logic to some of these questions.

I have no idea who old Banares is. If he is older than 19, then he should not be playing in the Junior event. I can understand your desire for a BMPAP player to be included, but if he is not a BSCP player then I can see where he would not be invited. USA players are based on their performance in the Junior Nationals. I am sure that there are better junior players than the ones representing the BCA. But if they didn't play in the BCA Junior Nationals, then they are not going to be invited. That is a reward for the players who supported the BCA event. Is the BCA abusing their power by doing this?

How are they abusing WPA accreditation by announcing Manalo and Gabica? Did the WPA stipulate that representatives were to be chosen by qualifiers? The USA recently returned invites to the World Games. They didn't hold qualifiers for the event in the US. Are the abusing their power? No qualifiers were held for the big 9-ball event in Qatar for US players. Did the BCA abuse their power then?

Because the BSCP chose from BSCP players for their invites, they are abusing their power? Didn't the BMPAP say that anyone could play in their events, as long as they were BMPAP players?

As for the trip to Reno with debts outstanding. I don't have access to Yen's finances (nor do I want access to it).

Mike

sputnik said:
Okay, tell me if this is mudslinging or policing...

BSCP/Raya has announced that there will be three players to be sent to Nevada for the World Junior Championships at the end of this month. The delegation will be headed by Makabenta and will have three media people with it.

They have to make sure that before they go spend bucks on airplanes and hotels, ALL the players of WTB, including the referrees should be fully paid. Not until all players are fully paid will I stop making noise on this issue.

Also, their lead player, Banares, is definitely over 19 years old (I think 24 years old). Revo David is 19 but he is in the BMPAP camp.

They announced Manalo and Gabica to be sent to Asia 10-Ball in Korea... without qualifiers again.

There is a continuation in their momentum to abuse WPA accreditation in selecting AMATEUR and PROFESSIONAL players abroad according to their whims - compliments of the WPA!
 
And might one of those obstacles be the petty infighting that goes on in the game today? Like what we are seeing from the Philippines?

An outside sponsor or network is supposed to see billiards as a profitable thing to be a part of when the best players in arguably the historical home of the best players in the game can't even get along?

And no, the game is not supposed to wait for sponsors or tv to come to them. My question was "Who should approach sponsors or tv?". Who has the power to do this? The closest entity to have this power is the WPA, and they are being portrayed as money grubbing outsiders just looking out for themselves because they supported Yen.

Us fans want a nice package taken out there and shopped to sponsors or tv. But there isn't a nice package to take out there because pool is such a state of disarray.

And it doesn't appear to be getting any better any time soon.

Mike

bandido said:
Apparently.


For now to some.


Of course! Like you said it's outside the Philippines. How to deal with those, TV stations and sponsors outside of the Philippines, have been very difficult for the "rest of the world". Isn't that apparent too? You still think that TV should approach you, the event promoters, and beg for your event (content)? That era, network jousting against each other for contents, is long gone. The dust have settled and desirable contents have been identified. The era too of piracy and/or outbidding other networks for prime contents is waning and this era is what boosted the value of these prime contents. Somehow this seems to be very hard for you to grasp. Pool is not in the same league as football, basketball, golf, soccer, baseball or even MMA. But all the aforementioned went through growing pains but they've identified the obstacles that they need to overcome. Pool is still living hindered by these obstacles thus never even reaching "growing pains" stage. You guys can stay there 'til you fade away.

In denial? How about enlightened?
 
In denial?? Hmm

"The WPC can't be held in the Philippines. It just can't be done."

06 and 07 WPC

"The WTBC won't happen without the top Filipino players"

Yes, it did.

"No sponsors are listed on the WTBC website. That means there are none"

Sponsors were sure visible at the event.

"Well, the players won't get paid"

Ask the US players that we have spoken to.


I guess you and I have a different definition for "in denial".
 
AzHousePro said:
And might one of those obstacles be the petty infighting that goes on in the game today? Like what we are seeing from the Philippines?

An outside sponsor or network is supposed to see billiards as a profitable thing to be a part of when the best players in arguably the historical home of the best players in the game can't even get along?

And no, the game is not supposed to wait for sponsors or tv to come to them. My question was "Who should approach sponsors or tv?". Who has the power to do this? The closest entity to have this power is the WPA, and they are being portrayed as money grubbing outsiders just looking out for themselves because they supported Yen.

Us fans want a nice package taken out there and shopped to sponsors or tv. But there isn't a nice package to take out there because pool is such a state of disarray.

And it doesn't appear to be getting any better any time soon.

Mike

The WPA has nothing to do with getting TV coverage for pool. The only thing I see them doing is keeping a calendar of events and ranking players who played in their sanctioned events. What's the use of that player ranking anyway? Did they use it at all in their recent sanctioned event, the WTBC?

Your so called "state of disarray" has been going on forever. Maybe it's time to change the system? Got it? Change....the....system
 
I'm curious bout something Mike (n the rest of Yen's supporter):

What's your thought on Alex P case and the qualifying @ Star that gone wrong? Isn't it obvious an "abuse of power"?
What about the attacking text message that came first when Efren n Django didn't represent PHI in SEA Games until now, cmiiw.

I think that both cases are the catalyst to all of this.

Fyi, don't get me wrong I'm just an observer, nothing to do at all with Philippine's pool, I'd like to see from another angle.
 
Last edited:
No, they didn't use it for the WTBC. Because it is not the WPA's place to decide who the invites go to. That right goes to the members of the WPA.

Last I checked, the WPA was doing more than keeping a calendar and points list.

Who is it who goes to meet with people interested in holding international events to handle the logistics of making the event happen? Is it the WPA?

The WPA is trying to bring this game together and pull it out of the disarray that has been a part of the game for so long.

But they don't see things the same way you do. Is that your primary reason for wanting to change their system?

Mike


bandido said:
The WPA has nothing to do with getting TV coverage for pool. The only thing I see them doing is keeping a calendar of events and ranking players who played in their sanctioned events. What's the use of that player ranking anyway? Did they use it at all in their recent sanctioned event, the WTBC?

Your so called "state of disarray" has been going on forever. Maybe it's time to change the system? Got it? Change....the....system
 
This is just my opinion.

If the qualifier that took place at Star happened exactly as it was described, then I think it was wrong. No questions about it.

As for Alex, he is a unique individual. He has fun when he is playing the game of pool. That rubs some people the wrong way. The opinion that matters is the opinion of the event organizer. If they said they didn't approve of his behavior, then they didn't approve.

If an employee sits in a board meeting and continues to crack jokes while others are making their presentations, then there will most likely be problems for that employee. And answered that he is just that way and was just having fun is not going to cut it.

Yes, I am a supporter of the WTBC. It was a chance for quite a few pool players to make it easier to make a living playing this game that we all love. Could it have been better? No doubt about it.

I don't agree 100% with the decisions that Yen/Raya made. As far as that goes, I don't agree 100% with the decision of the WPA or the BCA. But I see the need for their roles in the game and I support them as best I can.

Mike

quanz said:
I'm curious bout something Mike (n the rest of Yen's supporter):

What's your thought on Alex P case and the qualifying @ Star that gone wrong? Isn't it obvious an "abuse of power"?

I think that both cases are the catalyst to all of this.

Fyi, don't get me wrong I'm just an observer, nothing to do at all with Philippine's pool, I'd like to see from another angle.
 
Fair enough Mike, thx for sharing your thought.
If Yen really did the above, I think he should not lead the BSCP.
 
AzHousePro said:
While I am certainly not a representative for Raya in any way, I can apply logic to some of these questions.

I have no idea who old Banares is. If he is older than 19, then he should not be playing in the Junior event. I can understand your desire for a BMPAP player to be included, but if he is not a BSCP player then I can see where he would not be invited. USA players are based on their performance in the Junior Nationals. I am sure that there are better junior players than the ones representing the BCA. But if they didn't play in the BCA Junior Nationals, then they are not going to be invited. That is a reward for the players who supported the BCA event. Is the BCA abusing their power by doing this?

How are they abusing WPA accreditation by announcing Manalo and Gabica? Did the WPA stipulate that representatives were to be chosen by qualifiers? The USA recently returned invites to the World Games. They didn't hold qualifiers for the event in the US. Are the abusing their power? No qualifiers were held for the big 9-ball event in Qatar for US players. Did the BCA abuse their power then?

Because the BSCP chose from BSCP players for their invites, they are abusing their power? Didn't the BMPAP say that anyone could play in their events, as long as they were BMPAP players?

As for the trip to Reno with debts outstanding. I don't have access to Yen's finances (nor do I want access to it).

Mike

Mike, the root of everything is that Raya is enjoying BSCP with its accreditation and BSCP is enjoying Raya by crossing the non-profit boundaries. And Makabenta is Chairman of BSCP and President of Raya. More so, Raya has been officially declared as a partner to BSCP.

Think about it objectively and perhaps you will realize that your logic is invalid.

BMPAP is working against this set-up, and BMPAP came to be because of this set-up. It was not because some top players decided in One Side one evening that they wanted to bolt out.

The convenience in having that set-up extends to your logic, Mike. You do not know Makabenta's finances, but the WTB was a collaboration between Raya and BSCP, and BSCP is supposed to make sure (as a governing body) that Raya pays up everybody before it spends money on itself. But that simply takes Makabenta to look into the mirror in the mornings and talk to himself.
 
AzHousePro said:
This is just my opinion.

As for Alex, he is a unique individual. He has fun when he is playing the game of pool. That rubs some people the wrong way. The opinion that matters is the opinion of the event organizer. If they said they didn't approve of his behavior, then they didn't approve.

If an employee sits in a board meeting and continues to crack jokes while others are making their presentations, then there will most likely be problems for that employee. And answered that he is just that way and was just having fun is not going to cut it.

Mike

It was the Guinness Tour who asked Alex back. In fact they even wanted him to be the ambassador for the tour. This was Alex's vindication and the basis of why he sued Makabenta for over $120,000.
 
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