World 10 Ball Silence

[JB Cases]

The way the world works TODAY, people commit crimes like this, and hide behind expensive lawyers or the law itself. As it takes far too much just to get it to court assuming that court is even an option.

Fortunately, i don't really live in that world.
I live in my own self serving world where i make rules as i see fit for what i feel is just or not.

Of course i know my thoughts in this instance are not the higher road or enlightened path, but i know that it would be a solution to the problem. PERIOD.

It's kind of funny when i think about it cause I actually know a couple of guys i grew up with who you could say are "collectors" for white collar debt, where they are contracted to fly to certain town to go talk to someone, and either collect the money, or collect a signature that signs over a certain part of whatever that is a result of not coming up with the money.

Let me tell you, that if some fat cat is sitting behind his 16 foot mahogany desk, and decides that he's gonna mess with the little guys he owes money to, his tune completely changes when he has a shotgun in his mouth, or up his ass.

Then it's like friggin Christmas time, and gifts are abundant with debt being paid left and right.
But if they didn't have that incentive, nothing would ever get done.

I feel that the pool playing community has been ripped off enough to where some wild west action or flat out lynchings are without a doubt, an appropriate course of action.

The players that are owed money should just write it off.
If your willing to bend over and take it up the ass cause someone owes you a dime, then you really need to think about if you want to continue being a pool player or not cause it's not going to stop happening any time soon.

And for all you people that are gonna get all mushy when it comes time to bust a promoters head wide open and be like "no, don't hurt him, what about his family, or what about his little kid"

Um, NO!!

And it's not just limited to pool.

I happen to think that every wall street CEO that made a fortune ripping off the public should be shot in the face, and have all his wealth liquidated to try and make restitutions.
His family, wife kids and babies should be tossed out on the street to starve like the homeless.

"oh, but it's not their fault, they didn't commit the crime"

F that bull$#!t, i don't care if they rot on the streets or not. I'm not going to take it up the ass so that they can live some luxurious lifestyle.

Let them go sleep it off in an alley, and go look in a dumpster for some food.

I agree 100%. Stuff like this is utter bullshit and ought to be dealt with severely. You don't screw with people's lives, entice them to travel around the world and then jerk them around.

Embezzlement, fraud, theft of intellectual property, so-called non-violent financial crimes should all be dealt severely. In China when something like this happens then the offender can get the death penalty. I am normally pretty liberal and I don't believe in the death penalty as it stands. I believe that someone who has committed a death penalty level offense, such as bankrupting millions of people, should be forced to give up their body for the benefit of mankind. They should become human lab rats and spend their lives giving back to humanity. Cruel and unusual punishment? Nope, rational and fair, considering the harm that was caused. Executing someone is an easy escape for them.

Now I don't consider welching on a pool tournament to be a death penalty offense but it warrants jail time or at least some broken bones.

Superstar is right - when the gun is to their head they magically are able to satisfy their debts. I have seen it firsthand.

Even if no pool player earns more than $100,000 in a single year ever again I'd be happy to have that and never see another tournament where the players don't get paid promptly and in full.

 

[arian dacongan]

this is not over.. and don't be too fast ..all you yen friends to look forward to the next one..like the first one was patronized

the americans per your press release in behalf of your friends at bscp/raya are all paid...great

what about the rest of the players specially the filipinos..we'll see..

poor phil. treasury was used here to save the country's face from foreign embarassment and eventually saving yen(which he does not deserved)

we'll see how they pay up the rest....

 

[sputnik]

this is not over.. and don't be too fast ..all you yen friends to look forward to the next one..like the first one was patronized

the americans per your press release in behalf of your friends at bscp/raya are all paid...great

what about the rest of the players specially the filipinos..we'll see..

poor phil. treasury was used here to save the country's face from foreign embarassment and eventually saving yen(which he does not deserved)

we'll see how they pay up the rest....

Arian, my friend, in all fairness, Raya did not get money from the government to save the country from embarassment. That's not the way it works. Our foreign friends should not feel bad about receiving their winnings. BSCP/Raya just did not do things right from day one. You will just have to accept that not everyone sympathizes with the plight of the Filipino pool player under these guys. For whatever reason, so be it.

 

[azhousepro]

I don't think it is an "attitude". It is more of a "reality".

Mike

It's this kind of desperate attitude that makes pool players easy prey for every no-account, sleazeball, hustler and con-man out there.

Why should anyone respect professional pool players when they don't show any respect for themselves?

 

[azhousepro]

All of the players at the WTBC were told before a ball was ever hit that they would have to give their bank info and payment would be wired to their accounts.

They did not go into the event thinking that they were going to be paid as soon as they were eliminated.

Mike

I can't believe some on here clapping their hands because a few got paid 3-4 weeks after the fact. I think another thing needs to be put on tournament flyers...WHEN DO THE PLAYERS GET PAID?

 

[arian dacongan]

Arian, my friend, in all fairness, Raya did not get money from the government to save the country from embarassment. That's not the way it works. Our foreign friends should not feel bad about receiving their winnings. BSCP/Raya just did not do things right from day one. You will just have to accept that not everyone sympathizes with the plight of the Filipino pool player under these guys. For whatever reason, so be it.

i don't think that was point at all my friend .. and don't mean to make feel anybody feel bad about their winnings on wtb...

my point there is for yen friends here on azb not to start bragging about how yen paid. and that it'll be greater next year lest they forget where the money came from and what public reception wtb received

... far as yen/raya/bscp..they all one and the same... a huge conflict of interest.

 

[Johnnyt]

All of the players at the WTBC were told before a ball was ever hit that they would have to give their bank info and payment would be wired to their accounts.

They did not go into the event thinking that they were going to be paid as soon as they were eliminated.

Mike

They were told before they hit a ball...were they told BEFORE they got on a plane? After the plan trip, what are they to do if they don't like it...just go home? Johnnyt

 

[arian dacongan]

They were told before they hit a ball...were they told BEFORE they got on a plane? After the plan trip, what are they to do if they don't like it...just go home? Johnnyt

it's even pointless to discuss anything with these people..they will defend wtb's yen at all cost

,,this is the part that i hated about them ... they have lost rationality just to defend wtb's yen & co.'s reckless efforts...

..this is prolly what yen banked on when he arrogantly and recklessly went ahead without guaranteed funds.. " i will go ahead wether there is funds or not..because when it comes to the point where players are waiting too long for their monies- the government will save me or else the country will be shamed tremendously "

 

[azhousepro]

Considering that the players were paid in 1-2 weeks after the World 9-Ball the last 2 years, I would imagine that no one was all that surprised to find out that they would be paid by wire transfer in 1-2 weeks after WTBC.

If you are asking if the players were told "point blank" before they got on a plane that payment would be made 1-2 weeks after the event, I can only answer for the US players and they were not.

I believe there were a small handful of players in WTBC who did not compete in WPC and would not have known this already. (a list of 3 americans comes to mind right away).

Mike

 

[azhousepro]

Arian, I take this message personally.

I have already said that Yen screwed up in not paying the players within 1-2 weeks as they were originally told. I also said he should have kept in better contact with them after the 1-2 weeks was up.

I do not defend Yen's actions when I think they are wrong.

On the other hand, I do not for one second believe that the top Filipino players were sitting around One Side one night and decided that they thought it was a conflict of interest for Yen to run Raya and be involved with the BSCP. Then they all decided that the best way to handle the situation was to boycott all of Raya's events until Yen stepped down from Raya.

To be honest, the same thing could be said of you that you claimed of Yen's friends.

That you are never going to admit that the WTBC was positive in any way and that is because you believe that everything Yen/Raya does is a sign of the apocalypse and we should all run for cover.

Mike

it's even pointless to discuss anything with these people..they will defend wtb's yen at all cost

,,this is the part that i hated about them ... they have lost rationality just to defend wtb's yen & co.'s reckless efforts...

..this is prolly what yen banked on when he arrogantly and recklessly went ahead without guaranteed funds.. " i will go ahead wether there is funds or not..because when it comes to the point where players are waiting too long for their monies- the government will save me or else the country will be shamed tremendously "

 

[jay helfert]

Arian, I take this message personally.

I have already said that Yen screwed up in not paying the players within 1-2 weeks as they were originally told. I also said he should have kept in better contact with them after the 1-2 weeks was up.

I do not defend Yen's actions when I think they are wrong.

On the other hand, I do not for one second believe that the top Filipino players were sitting around One Side one night and decided that they thought it was a conflict of interest for Yen to run Raya and be involved with the BSCP. Then they all decided that the best way to handle the situation was to boycott all of Raya's events until Yen stepped down from Raya.

To be honest, the same thing could be said of you that you claimed of Yen's friends.

That you are never going to admit that the WTBC was positive in any way and that is because you believe that everything Yen/Raya does is a sign of the apocalypse and we should all run for cover.

Mike

With all due respect Mike, I agree that all the mudslinging prior to the WTB was in bad taste and counterproductive. Like you I wanted to see the event work out well and become a staple on the world pool scene. I was dismayed that so many top filipino players were not playing, regardless of their reasons for being absent. Also like you, I feel that the event went relatively well for a first time solo effort by Raya Sports. They did have a top field of players and the television coverage was fairly extensive, reaching a far wider audience (35 countries) than most U.S. based tournaments.

Why the on scene commentators were not used was baffling to me. Jerry Forsyth and his co-com were clearly superior to the two gentlemen being used in Singapore. This is a decision that escapes me and may have led to lower TV ratings. Be that as it may, the play was of a high standard throughout and the final match was brilliantly played by both competitors.

But this thread is about the slow payment of prize money (it is 4 weeks today) and why there has been so little communication with some very apprehensive players. Why should they have to undergo this type of stress when their job is only to show up and play pool. Must they become collectors as well, with legal assistance always at the ready? We do not know, as I write this, how many players have been paid, and if it is in fact full payment. To me it is unacceptable to treat the world's best pool players this way.

I wish to remain on friendly terms with all concerned, but I will speak up on here and in person if need be. As long as such behavior is acceptable in the pool world, misdeeds will continue to happen. I do not advocate violence as Superstar does (at least he should be smart enough to keep such thoughts private), but if I can no longer speak as an advocate of the players what good am I? They haven't always been loyal to me (thank you Don Mackey), but I will remain loyal to them.

 

[AuntyDan]

Quite right Mike. Yes, clearly there were some aspects of the 2008 WTBC that could have been done better and the specter of an IPT-style disaster clouded the last week or so, but at the end of the day this tournament allowed a player to win $100,000 for playing professional Pool.

Surely after all is said and done this must be a good thing overall.

 

[watchez]

Maybe they should have a pool tournament where the players get up to four weeks after the tournament to pay the entry fee. As long as the tournament director/promoter is notified by the player sometime before the tournament starts, that should be ok. This would ensure that all tournaments have a full field.

 

[sputnik]

Okay, the players have been paid. They ought to have been. Very good.

Pre-tournament mudslinging (if warnings are not acceptable), okay, it happened. Guilty. But there was already pre-pre-tournament bashing that went on so whodunit is arguable.

BSCP/Raya did some things that did not protect them at all from roused concerns. The non-announcement of sponsors in their "under constructions" website and their silence until days before the event is one. Another is the silence that Mike mentioned regarding payment after the tournament. As this is a forum, those things will be feasted on, with some people taking things more seriously.

Let's just all look at things in hindsight and face it. It will now depend on us whether to deem the underlying factors as lessons to be learned from or not. To cover up and pretend that everything went perfect does not help the pool community at all. In a way, we here in the forum should police each other so that our vulnerable system of running tournaments will be kept on a straight path.

BMPAP will have tournaments, and we know that if we do not do things right, we will be subjected to the same banana.

So whoever tried to keep things on the right path, be it the ones who tried to help in the success of the WTB and be it those who tried to straighten things up from the other side of the fence all need to give themselves a pat on the back. Forget vested interest. There will always be competition and there will always be people on the good side of financial considerations.

All we need to do here is to ensure that whatever tournament that comes up should be as advertised. Do not make a local fiesta a world championship because that is deception (pre and post tournament). If the WTBC that just happened was not a world spectacle, we should have known so. If it was being promoted as one, we should check it out and not allow players to be lured into spending their precious bucks because of false advertisement.

And it goes both ways... the promoters need to use this forum too for upfront announcements. An example is Jerry's citing of the WPC being announced by BMPAP and not pushing through. Edwin came up here with the reason (eye-opening for many) why it was being postponed. A well prepared postponed WPC is better than an ill-prepared one just because we had to stick with the original target date. If need be, then we have to drop it with Jay's humble pie instead of forcing the issue and having some people take the brunt for it. Cheap shot, Jerry, but it's okay because next time, we will be more careful with announcements. That's how the forum should work.

At the end of the day, it should all have been for the betterment of the sport.

 

[monski]

All's well that ends well? Better late than never? I just wanna look forward to the future...

Philippines vs The World Event seems to be looking good. Will this be just a local event? The field of players will surely generate a lot of interest. Can you do a new thread on the details Martin?

 

[Meezer Girl]

All's well that ends well? Better late than never? I just wanna look forward to the future...
Philippines vs The World Event seems to be looking good. Will this be just a local event? The field of players will surely generate a lot of interest. Can you do a new thread on the details Martin?

but it would be wise to keep in mind that old saying - something like:

"Those who ignore the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them"

 

[SUPERSTAR]

I agree 100%. Stuff like this is utter bullshit and ought to be dealt with severely. You don't screw with people's lives, entice them to travel around the world and then jerk them around.

Embezzlement, fraud, theft of intellectual property, so-called non-violent financial crimes should all be dealt severely. In China when something like this happens then the offender can get the death penalty. I am normally pretty liberal and I don't believe in the death penalty as it stands. I believe that someone who has committed a death penalty level offense, such as bankrupting millions of people, should be forced to give up their body for the benefit of mankind. They should become human lab rats and spend their lives giving back to humanity. Cruel and unusual punishment? Nope, rational and fair, considering the harm that was caused. Executing someone is an easy escape for them.

Now I don't consider welching on a pool tournament to be a death penalty offense but it warrants jail time or at least some broken bones.

Superstar is right - when the gun is to their head they magically are able to satisfy their debts. I have seen it firsthand.

Even if no pool player earns more than $100,000 in a single year ever again I'd be happy to have that and never see another tournament where the players don't get paid promptly and in full.

Believe me, there is nothing more disgusting, then a high up guy ripping off the guys who depend on them for a check, and watching as the victims either don't know the law, cannot afford a decent lawyer who understands the law, or aren't intelligent enough to know that they have certain avenues they could pursue, or just basically enjoy taking it up the butt and believe in the goodness of man, and how Karma is going to get the guy one day.

I would think that promoters who feed on pool players know that the majority of pool players are broke, and don't have a pot to piss in most of the time, and that they will take any handout that comes their way.
If they have to jump through hoops or bark like a dog to get their check, i'm sure enough of them are in such tight financial restraints, that they would.

It's sad when a statement about a professional sport, like the one i have just made, is basically true.

Fortunately, for the players, they got paid.

Otherwise, i might have had to call up my buddies to see if they restocked their supply of cobra venom. (you don't even want to know)

 

[monski]

but it would be wise to keep in mind that old saying - something like:

"Those who ignore the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them"

-------------------
Sure... definitely.

 

[pro9dg]

No, I was not paid up front. Yes. I waited for my wire. The only 'financial interest' I had in the event was my salary as TV commentator and news bureau.

Now, Watchez, can I stick my nose in your business? Who are you? What is your real name and what is your connection to pool in the Philippines? You seem to believe that all questions poised here should be answered, so have at it.

If I seem a little peeved, I am. You and a small handful of others tried to destroy this event from the get-go. First you said it would never happen. It did. Then you said the players would not get paid. They did. Even now, after you have been proven wrong on every point, you continue to try and stir stuff up that is either petty or inaccurate.

I am tired of the political gamesmanship. I am tired of events being announced that never materialize. Especially when that runs the risk of costing the players the payday they deserved to have in the WPC that was announced for Manila and now may not occur. All of this hurts the players, the fans and the game itself.

Stop swimming against the current. If you do not like the way that the WPA is doing things then stop throwing stones from outside. Get on the damn boat and help with the work on the rudder. The WPA is like any other organization, it is there to promote the cause and the interests of its members. It can be changed from within by a simple vote. But you cannot help the parade of the sport by standing on the curb and tossing out barbs under the tires.

This game is in a crucial spot. We need everyone pushing in the same direction, not sparring on the sidelines. Stop the squabbles, join forces with the rest of the world, and help move the game forward. The game should not be held captive to the interests of any one small group. It should democratically evolve and move as one tide across the future sea.

Much as it grieves me to get into a disagreement with you there are many of us who do not share your view of Makabenta and his vision of the future. It is a known fact that you have an agenda in which 10 ball will eventually replace 9 ball as the professional game. You argue the case for it quite succinctly and in YM you have found a kindred spirit. At this juncture I would like to distinguish between the two of you - you are a man of high principles..........

The platform that the WTBC gave you makes it understandable that you should hold the beliefs that you do. You can cite the views that some players prefer 10 ball because it is a harder game. But if they want to play a harder game then let them go and play snooker.

As a media icon I think you would understand my point of view that for many years the viewing public have been educated on the rules, tactics and the nuances of 9 ball. Golden breaks, classy runouts, creative combinations, granite safety play all go to make a viewing package that the public like and can understand. Now you are trying to fix something that ain't broke.

Many people on this thread have much more extreme views but that does not constitute swimming against the tide.

I don't want to get on a boat that is mastered by Captain Makabenta or for that matter Captains Trudeau or Captain Behrman. As I mentioned earlier you are top of my League of Respect (it isn?t a very big table but Mike Howerton is on it too) but there are too many question marks against that fleet.

No Watchez, you shouldn?t question Jerry on what his personal financial arrangements in this setup here. No doubt he will have earned every cent that he does get.

And the World 9 Ball ? that will be back and in it?s rightful spot as the game?s premier event.

Finally, have you read the Constitution of the WPA?
The players fund the Sanction Fees out of their prize money but they are still treated as second class citizens and have no redress if they have a grievance. That has got to be addressed.

 

[JB Cases]

One thing I have missed in all this is whether the World Ten Ball Championship had an entry fee. Was there one? And if so how much was it?