World 10 Ball Silence

[JB Cases]

Yeah, well I guess that it was so secure that the money would be paid that no one was even talking about it at the US Open were they? It wasn't the WPA that put up the money was it?

Darren Appleton said it rattled him at the Open. I guess he hasn't been around long enough to know that it's "normal" to not get paid on time and that it's normal to sometimes not get paid at all.

Well anyway to all of you who have made noise to get these players paid kudos to you.

I hope that referees manged to get paid now. I guess that they didn't get any promise of payment from the WPA.

 

[memikey]

Niels has the green on his account (already for a week or so).

No need to panic, this is the normal asian way of paying. I am working in a world wide buisiness and this is very commen. Has nothing to do with not having the money or bad organisation.

If that is what you think you might have been very unlucky in your Asian business conducted or it may be that you have less experience of world business norms and/or of Asian organisations' business practices in particular than you think you have. My business started in Uk and has now been largely focused in Asia for over 20 years. I have always had representative offices and clients spread all over the world (including Philippines) and still do. In my personal experience and in the experience often expressed by most of my business peers, Asian organisations in general pay invoices much quicker than for example European or American ones.

As regards pool in particular, to give just one example, prize money for World Championships and other sizeable events held right here in UAE, which last time I looked was in Asia, is paid IMMEDIATELY the player is eliminated. There is nothing whatsoever that can be categorised as being 'normal for Asia' about waiting for more than one month for prize money from a tournament organiser. A week or so after the event would not be unreasonable or unheard of, but not one month or more.

There may well be a valid general argument that the subject of this particular prize money distribution being delayed is actually somewhat less huge an issue than some have built it up to be....that's one thing.......but to say that such delayed payment is wholly down to how business is normally done in Asia is a completely different kettle of fish and quite frankly simply isn't true other than in exceptional circumstances.

 

[berry]

I appologize for the statement that it's a normal way of paying in Asia.

I didn't want to get the entire World on my neck because I have lot's of bad examples on delivery dates and payments from Asia, I guess I am doing business with the wrong people.

Peace!

 

[sputnik]

I appologize for the statement that it's a normal way of paying in Asia.

I didn't want to get the entire World on my neck because I have lot's of bad examples on delivery dates and payments from Asia, I guess I am doing business with the wrong people.

Peace!

Thank you for your apology berry. Even if you localize the generalization to the Philippines, not all Filipinos pay late.

I have not posted for quite some time now. People have been paid and that makes me happy. I'm sure the refs will get paid in due time. We have the local media to handle that, so bringing it out in the forums will be a useless effort in pushing that group to meet their obligations.

 

[memikey]

I appologize for the statement that it's a normal way of paying in Asia.

I didn't want to get the entire World on my neck because I have lot's of bad examples on delivery dates and payments from Asia, I guess I am doing business with the wrong people.

Peace!

No probs here either:smile:

I have an enforcer if anyone from here owes you money and my rates are reasonable

 

[pro9dg]

It is probably time to put this thread to bed. Most players appear to have been paid (I am sure that anyone who has not would have surfaced by now). I don't know about the refs yet but I am sure that someone is on their case. So all's well that ends well - or is it?

This was a perfect time for players to organise themselves and safeguard their interests for the future. This scenario should never happen again - but it almost certainly will! This is because it has shown that players are not professional enough to resist being pushed around. Yet they are too apathetic to do anything about it.

True, the European players have been making some rumblings lately but their objectives are somewhat cloudy. What they needed was a small elite band of Euro Professionals but they have enfranchised a wider range of Euro players and conversely they have weakened their position. More diverse opinions must now be accommodated and this means more difficulty in reaching an accord.

The situation in the Philippines - BMPAP are making sensible proposals but they came in as also runs in the recent propoganda war with the BSCP. Makabenta proved that Silence Is Golden.
But I am sure that Perry, Verna, Putch, Edwin and Martin will still be trying to prove that the Pen Is Mightier Than The Sword and I wish them luck.
Their players are still solid behind them but the heat might start to be turned up with WPA bans so watch this space.

The US seems as fragmented as ever. Mark Griffin's proposals seemed good but do not seem to have commanded popular support. Fran Crimi and the BCA are making noises and Jerry Forsyth is also banging a drum. But the orchestra is still a little out of tune.

I still think that a WPA Player Membership Category is the best option. This would eliminate much of the infighting that could come if players formed independent organisations. But the WPA are not holding out any olive branches on this issue.

So it is business as usual and I will now put my soap box away. I'm off to watch the Mosconi Cup next. Good to see Mika is on fire now - so come on Europe!! If there are any AZ posters there then say hello to me!

 

[jay helfert]

Although I tend to agree with you Doug, I still have some lingering questions in the aftermath of this most recent situation. I gained newfound respect for Ian Anderson and the thankless task he has as head of the WPA, thanks to our little confab in Manila. But still I must wonder where the WPA was when all this was taking place. No public statements supporting the players! Nothing at all about what was being done to rectify the situation. Only silence. And this is after the WPA took a strong position in support of this event. With Thomas Overbeck as the tournament director, the WPA was also an integral part of the tournament.

I know that I risk any relationship I have with Yen, Ian and Thomas, but that is a choice I willingly make in support of all the players who toil in this sport. I personally sent correspondence to both these entities early on in regard to the late payments, and to date have never received a reply. And this after being told to contact them anytime I had a question or a grievance. I guess now these were hollow words meant to placate me.

Any confidence I had in the WPA was eroded by their inactivity during this entire situation. I would have thought they would be in the forefront, reassuring players regarding prize money due to them. I am just one man typing away at a keyboard, not an organization with worldwide powers in the billiard industry. So maybe my voice is just a distant echo in the wilderness. But I will not be silent when malfeasance is going on.

 

[shankster8]

Although I tend to agree with you Doug, I still have some lingering questions in the aftermath of this most recent situation. I gained newfound respect for Ian Anderson and the thankless task he has as head of the WPA, thanks to our little confab in Manila. But still I must wonder where the WPA was when all this was taking place. No public statements supporting the players! Nothing at all about what was being done to rectify the situation. Only silence. And this is after the WPA took a strong position in support of this event. With Thomas Overbach as the tournament director, the WPA was also an integral part of the tournament.

I know that I risk any relationship I have with Yen, Ian and Thomas, but that is a choice I willingly make in support of all the players who toil in this sport. I personally sent correspondence to both these entities early on in regard to the late payments, and to date have never received a reply. And this after being told to contact them anytime I had a question or a grievance. I guess now these were hollow words meant to placate me.

Any confidence I had in the WPA was eroded by their inactivity during this entire situation. I would have thought they would be in the forefront, reassuring players regarding prize money due to them. I am just one man typing away at a keyboard, not an organization with worldwide powers in the billiard industry. So maybe my voice is just a distant echo in the wilderness. But I will not be silent when malfeasance is going on.

Can you explain this? "I gained newfound respect for Ian Anderson . . ."

 

[jay helfert]

Can you explain this? "I gained newfound respect for Ian Anderson . . ."

Long story with a history. Short version - He explained in detail to me how things worked with the WPA and his position with it.

 

[sputnik]

Congratulations to you Doug for this thread. Who knows that without the reaction of the members in this thread, players wouldn't have been paid still!

But more importantly, this thread had opened the eyes of a lot of the folks here to how things work in the hierarchy of the pool kingdom. We now know that our posts in this forum can get things going... get wrongs or potential wrongs to become right; get principles to crawl over profit; and get personal perspective to be persuaded with logic and facts. We also learned that belonging to factions does not necessarily mean being bias if the post is dedicated to the well-being of the professional player and the sport that we love.

More power to professional pool in all continents!!!

Martin

It is probably time to put this thread to bed. Most players appear to have been paid (I am sure that anyone who has not would have surfaced by now). I don't know about the refs yet but I am sure that someone is on their case. So all's well that ends well - or is it?

This was a perfect time for players to organise themselves and safeguard their interests for the future. This scenario should never happen again - but it almost certainly will! This is because it has shown that players are not professional enough to resist being pushed around. Yet they are too apathetic to do anything about it.

True, the European players have been making some rumblings lately but their objectives are somewhat cloudy. What they needed was a small elite band of Euro Professionals but they have enfranchised a wider range of Euro players and conversely they have weakened their position. More diverse opinions must now be accommodated and this means more difficulty in reaching an accord.

The situation in the Philippines - BMPAP are making sensible proposals but they came in as also runs in the recent propoganda war with the BSCP. Makabenta proved that Silence Is Golden.
But I am sure that Perry, Verna, Putch, Edwin and Martin will still be trying to prove that the Pen Is Mightier Than The Sword and I wish them luck.
Their players are still solid behind them but the heat might start to be turned up with WPA bans so watch this space.

The US seems as fragmented as ever. Mark Griffin's proposals seemed good but do not seem to have commanded popular support. Fran Crimi and the BCA are making noises and Jerry Forsyth is also banging a drum. But the orchestra is still a little out of tune.

I still think that a WPA Player Membership Category is the best option. This would eliminate much of the infighting that could come if players formed independent organisations. But the WPA are not holding out any olive branches on this issue.

So it is business as usual and I will now put my soap box away. I'm off to watch the Mosconi Cup next. Good to see Mika is on fire now - so come on Europe!! If there are any AZ posters there then say hello to me!

 

[pro9dg]

Although I tend to agree with you Doug, I still have some lingering questions in the aftermath of this most recent situation. I gained newfound respect for Ian Anderson and the thankless task he has as head of the WPA, thanks to our little confab in Manila. But still I must wonder where the WPA was when all this was taking place. No public statements supporting the players! Nothing at all about what was being done to rectify the situation. Only silence. And this is after the WPA took a strong position in support of this event. With Thomas Overbeck as the tournament director, the WPA was also an integral part of the tournament.

I know that I risk any relationship I have with Yen, Ian and Thomas, but that is a choice I willingly make in support of all the players who toil in this sport. I personally sent correspondence to both these entities early on in regard to the late payments, and to date have never received a reply. And this after being told to contact them anytime I had a question or a grievance. I guess now these were hollow words meant to placate me.

Any confidence I had in the WPA was eroded by their inactivity during this entire situation. I would have thought they would be in the forefront, reassuring players regarding prize money due to them. I am just one man typing away at a keyboard, not an organization with worldwide powers in the billiard industry. So maybe my voice is just a distant echo in the wilderness. But I will not be silent when malfeasance is going on.

Yes, Ian is genuinely a nice guy but I still think that he should have come clean over the late payments.
But it fits in with what I have been saying all along. The WPA do not represent the players - the people who pay the Sanction Fees.

Who does? Is it only you Jay or you Roy S?

Also, on the same subject, neither the BCA or the EPBF can be called 'player friendly' organisations. The APBU are the nearest continental federation to come close.

The players do have the power but I despair of them ever being able to organise themselves effectively. They only seem to see as far as the end of their noses.

Ho Hum

 

[pro9dg]

Congratulations to you Doug for this thread. Who knows that without the reaction of the members in this thread, players wouldn't have been paid still!

But more importantly, this thread had opened the eyes of a lot of the folks here to how things work in the hierarchy of the pool kingdom. We now know that our posts in this forum can get things going... get wrongs or potential wrongs to become right; get principles to crawl over profit; and get personal perspective to be persuaded with logic and facts. We also learned that belonging to factions does not necessarily mean being bias if the post is dedicated to the well-being of the professional player and the sport that we love.

More power to professional pool in all continents!!!

Martin

Obviously the thread struck a chord elicting over 600 responses and 25,000 hits. But when all is said and done the WPA and Raya have proved that saying nothing at all was the best way of handling the situation.

Players blew a bit of hot air then ran out of will power.
I hate negativity but I feel that the game, as a global media sport to rival golf and tennis, has missed the boat now. Only a menu of third rate productions, internet streaming (yawn!) and insignificant challenge matches lies ahead.

A few months will go by and then we might hear some 'cock crowing' over next year's grand events. But I won't be booking my flights.

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Yes, Ian is genuinely a nice guy but I still think that he should have come clean over the late payments.
But it fits in with what I have been saying all along. The WPA do not represent the players - the people who pay the Sanction Fees.

Who does? Is it only you Jay or you Roy S?

Also, on the same subject, neither the BCA or the EPBF can be called 'player friendly' organisations. The APBU are the nearest continental federation to come close.

The players do have the power but I despair of them ever being able to organise themselves effectively. They only seem to see as far as the end of their noses.

Ho Hum

I have to admit that I totally lost interest in the players and late payments when I heard that the US Open have been paying some of the players late for years, and that Shane got his 1.price check from last year first in March/April this year. (Shane didn't complain, he and BB agreed on that deal)

People said that it has been common knowledge among the players that BB might pay some of the checks late, and that they have never done anything to make BB pay them immidiately after the tournament.

The players have never complained about BB running his tournament like that, and if they don't demand quick payment from him then they can't be surprised and angry when other promoters also starts to pay late...

Why should we care about fighting for the players when the players obviously doesn't give a damn themselves?

 

[pro9dg]

I have to admit that I totally lost interest in the players and late payments when I heard that the US Open have been paying some of the players late for years, and that Shane got his 1.price check from last year first in March/April this year. (Shane didn't complain, he and BB agreed on that deal)

People said that it has been common knowledge among the players that BB might pay some of the checks late, and that they have never done anything to make BB pay them immidiately after the tournament.

The players have never complained about BB running his tournament like that, and if they don't demand quick payment from him then they can't be surprised and angry when other promoters also starts to pay late...

Why should we care about fighting for the players when the players obviously doesn't give a damn themselves?

The players failed to SEIZE THE MOMENT and like you Roy, I feel that if they cannot help themselves, who are we to care?
Apart from the Middle East where it is still growing I can see professional pool going into Crash and Burn mode.

 

[JAM]

The players failed to SEIZE THE MOMENT and like you Roy, I feel that if they cannot help themselves, who are we to care?
Apart from the Middle East where it is still growing I can see professional pool going into Crash and Burn mode.

I came to this conclusion a few years ago.

Professional players cannot afford to travel the globe without sponsorship or a rich stakehorse. American players, in particular, are in a bad way. The existing lot of professional players is dwinding in the States. Soon there won't be any more professional events happening because the industry members, like the professional players without sponsors, realize it is not cost effective for them to pour money into the wonderful world of pocket billiards. :frown:

When you see a pro player making $100,000 per annum, I'll guarantee you that almost half of those winnings are needed to pay expenses. Then there's the taxes. Imagine how tough it is to go to two, three, and four pool tournaments every single month, when the only hope you have is to come in first, second, or third to break even on expenses. Of course, you're still stuck big time from all other tournaments. Nobody can win, place, and show all the time.

Pool cannot flourish in the United States withing some major change agent.

 

[Jadssons]

I came to this conclusion a few years ago.

Professional players cannot afford to travel the globe without sponsorship or a rich stakehorse. American players, in particular, are in a bad way. The existing lot of professional players is dwinding in the States. Soon there won't be any more professional events happening because the industry members, like the professional players without sponsors, realize it is not cost effective for them to pour money into the wonderful world of pocket billiards. :frown:

When you see a pro player making $100,000 per annum, I'll guarantee you that almost half of those winnings are needed to pay expenses. Then there's the taxes. Imagine how tough it is to go to two, three, and four pool tournaments every single month, when the only hope you have is to come in first, second, or third to break even on expenses. Of course, you're still stuck big time from all other tournaments. Nobody can win, place, and show all the time.

Pool cannot flourish in the United States withing some major change agent.

And we only have ourselves here in the U.S. to blame. There is just no way to have a great Professional Tour here without strick guidelines to keep it reputable. Even great legends like Grady have spoken out about it. The dumping of matches, use of drugs, etc. will ALWAYS keep pool down in the U.S. until someone stands up and offers punishment for players that do this just for the almighty dollar.

 

[JAM]

And we only have ourselves here in the U.S. to blame. There is just no way to have a great Professional Tour here without strick guidelines to keep it reputable. Even great legends like Grady have spoken out about it. The dumping of matches, use of drugs, etc. will ALWAYS keep pool down in the U.S. until someone stands up and offers punishment for players that do this just for the almighty dollar.

There is no support from the majority of the American pool culture to support a professional tour. So it won't ever happen.

The American pool culture, much like yourself, do not have a high opinion of professional players. It's called "stereotyping."

You can blame the players all you want, but it's hogwash, as far as I'm concerned. Unless you walk in the shoes of another, your knowledge base is limited that forms your opinion.

 

[Jadssons]

There is no American pool culture to support a professional tour. So it won't ever happen.

The American pool culture, much like yourself, do not have a high opinion of professional players. It's called "stereotyping."

You can blame the players all you want, but it's hogwash, as far as I'm concerned. Unless you walk in the shoes of another, your knowledge base is limited that forms your opinion.

I have a select few number of players that I do back..the ones I know I can trust. I have been to tournaments all over the U.S. and have seen this first hand...so my opinion is based on facts. It even happened in the IPT...which was biggest thing to ever happen to pool in this country. How long do you think the PGA would last if players started dumping?

 

[JAM]

I have a select few number of players that I do back..the ones I know I can trust. I have been to tournaments all over the U.S. and have seen this first hand...so my opinion is based on facts. It even happened in the IPT...which was biggest thing to ever happen to pool in this country. How long do you think the PGA would last if players started dumping?

Nobody, I don't think, is condoning dumping.

However, unless you are wearing blinders, this activity has been happening for centuries in all sports.

Pool may have experienced this activity as well, but it does not mean that this activity is the reason for pool's demise in the United States. If that theory was true, then there would be no PGA, MLB, NBA, NFL, et cetera.

 

[JAM]

I have a select few number of players that I do back..the ones I know I can trust. I have been to tournaments all over the U.S. and have seen this first hand...so my opinion is based on facts. It even happened in the IPT...which was biggest thing to ever happen to pool in this country. How long do you think the PGA would last if players started dumping?

Furthermore, the only way for you to know for sure if there was, in fact, actual blatant dumping in a pool competition is if you were a party to the dumping. :angry:

Otherwise, it's only conjecture on your part.