World 14.1 Championship Group Draws!
- Thread starter TheOne
- Start date
huckster said:
while a high run is certainly by no means reflective of the breadth of a player's game, you can take any player's high run and you will be surprised at how close it is in general.....ie mika and ginky in the 260's,,,ervolino and i believe robles over 300. your top players can 300-400+ with dedication,,,Cplayers/30'-40's,,,Dplayers/20's...
there is a very close correlation. if you've run 80's a few times, i'd say you are A- to A, because you're scratching at the 100 door.
jeanette doesn't run 200...she's not a "TOP" player, not even close. on high run alone, she's close to lipsky and j. smith. but in 10 matches, they'll win 8 out of 10. pool being the game that it is, anything can happen, but i wouldn't rate jeanette up there simply because she's won some games.
my mistake about the A++ for jeanette, however. i apologize, and by inference, i have to apologize to steve and jonathon as well. 150 is waaaay better than that. that's puts her in "open" catagory.
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bruin70 said:
Bear-man,
I have no idea what "A++ level" is, but it sounds pretty good to me. I will tell you that JL's 152 was reportedly on extremely tough equipment. Maybe SJM will weigh in (since I think he was the opponent).
The only reason I mention this, is that I FIRMLY believe that high runs can NOT be compared. Runs under competitive conditions, and on TOUGH equipment are infinitely more meaningful.
Sorry for repeating, but I happened to congratulate John Schmidt on his FABULOUS run of 112 against Alex Pagulayan at the DCC 2 or 3 years ago. John said something to the effect that on loose equipment he is a threat to run 400 anytime he steps to the table, but that the run of 112 he considered a much greater achievement than a 400 (it was on a reasonably tight table, for money, against a champion).
I've played at least 5 or 6 hours of straight pool with Johnny Archer, and seen a lot more from JL. They are NOT that far apart (when JL is healthy - a big question mark most of the time unfortunately). The edge in shotmaking is obviously Johnny's - one of the all-time greats. The edge in patterns, safety, strategy (minimizing risk especially) DEFINITELY goes to JL. If the equipment is very, very tough; the strategical edge is much more meaningful.
In any case, we are in for a great tournament - good luck to all of the participants (even the lowly A++ players), and thanks to Randy Goldwater for making such an event possible.
TheOne said:What's John's high run?
John's high run is exactly 400. I don't think this run occurred in competition. John said his run ended in mid-rack and when he counted the balls he realized that it was exactly 400, hence the name Mr. 400. John is a big threat to win any 14.1 event (he's a threat to win any event) and I would not be surprised if he finishes high or wins this event. John is a great player and a great guy (despite what others have said about him) and he's extremely tough to beat when he's on. If John is "on", then I pity the rest of the field.
NYC cue dude
Banned
my 14.1 picks and other info/stats
Firstly, John Schmidt is a great player who loves str8 pool. His high run (400) was witnessed by many people and was videotaped. (john records all or most of his "practice" sessions at night). Ironically, John has run over 200 balls on 27 different occasions, but had never ran 300. The day he ran 400 is the first and only time he has ever surpassed the 300 mark. Robles high run is 278. He has run over 200 balls about 6 or 7 times. Compare that to Nick Varner, who has run over 200 balls more than 100 times and did the most unbelievable feat of running over 200 balls, 4 different times on the SAME DAY!!!!
I spoke with Johnny Archer yesterday and his high run is 201. Cant count him out of this as he said last week he ran a 132 on his home table (double shimmed) with the slow nappy IPT cloth. Clearly this is equal to a run in excess of 200 in my opinion.
Thorsten is clearly the favorite in this event. As humble as he is, he is on record of being willing to bet that given ball in hand and his preffered breakshot, he can run 100 in 3 tries or less. His daily "practice" begins by running 100 balls. After that he works on other things.
Engert has run 492. He has told me that the last 20 balls or so he was physically shaking. Had he been able to surpass the 500 mark, and been able to calm down after reaching the milestone, who knows how many more balls he would have ran.
In the "old" days, str8 was the only game played. Exhibitions, tournaments and practice were all centered around str8 pool. Given that these players had daily involvement with this genre, the high runs were more prevalent then. In essence it was the only game in town. Today, the players are often busy playing/practicing 9 ball, because that is where the tourney money is ( although the future of pool may be 8ball, we'll see). I am sure that some of todays players are equall or better than those of yesteryear, but the opportunities just don't exist for them to pursue str8 pool anymore.
I pick Thorsten, Engert, Ortmann, Souquet, and Robles as the top 5. Archer, Immonen, Schmidt, Hatch (ran 300 balls at age 20) Barouty to round out the top 10. My Cinderella pick is young 15 year old Nico Wehner from Germany. He trains under Thorsten's coach and runs 100's daily. He has beaten Thorsten in the past head to head. No one can like playing this kid. Imho, he will definetly advance to the final 16.
As far as the women, Karen and Allison did not want to play. Jeanette Lee is probably the best womens str8pool player in the world. I am extremely confident she will advance out of the roundrobin (top 4 go).
The real question mark is what do the older "greats" have left in the tank. This is where the real variables lie. Varner, Zuglan, Hunter, Hopkins, and Siegel, all legendary world champ str8 pool players who in their prime, played on the Elite level. Jose Garcia from NJ never faired well in national tournament play, but has run over 300 several times and I am sure all the players in his group consider him a bad draw. How about pete fusco? If these guys can last through 7 guaranteed matches in 2 days, then advance to 150 point games and finally go to the final 16 where the races are to 200, and still be standing, all my predictions are off.
Smart money is on Thorsten. Even smarter money is on a German to win it.
Anyhow, it is my sincerest desire that all the players enjoy participating in the tourney and that all the fans around the world not only enjoy watching, reading and posting about it, but become the catalyst for bringing this great game back to prominence.
Thanks
RG
Firstly, John Schmidt is a great player who loves str8 pool. His high run (400) was witnessed by many people and was videotaped. (john records all or most of his "practice" sessions at night). Ironically, John has run over 200 balls on 27 different occasions, but had never ran 300. The day he ran 400 is the first and only time he has ever surpassed the 300 mark. Robles high run is 278. He has run over 200 balls about 6 or 7 times. Compare that to Nick Varner, who has run over 200 balls more than 100 times and did the most unbelievable feat of running over 200 balls, 4 different times on the SAME DAY!!!!
I spoke with Johnny Archer yesterday and his high run is 201. Cant count him out of this as he said last week he ran a 132 on his home table (double shimmed) with the slow nappy IPT cloth. Clearly this is equal to a run in excess of 200 in my opinion.
Thorsten is clearly the favorite in this event. As humble as he is, he is on record of being willing to bet that given ball in hand and his preffered breakshot, he can run 100 in 3 tries or less. His daily "practice" begins by running 100 balls. After that he works on other things.
Engert has run 492. He has told me that the last 20 balls or so he was physically shaking. Had he been able to surpass the 500 mark, and been able to calm down after reaching the milestone, who knows how many more balls he would have ran.
In the "old" days, str8 was the only game played. Exhibitions, tournaments and practice were all centered around str8 pool. Given that these players had daily involvement with this genre, the high runs were more prevalent then. In essence it was the only game in town. Today, the players are often busy playing/practicing 9 ball, because that is where the tourney money is ( although the future of pool may be 8ball, we'll see). I am sure that some of todays players are equall or better than those of yesteryear, but the opportunities just don't exist for them to pursue str8 pool anymore.
I pick Thorsten, Engert, Ortmann, Souquet, and Robles as the top 5. Archer, Immonen, Schmidt, Hatch (ran 300 balls at age 20) Barouty to round out the top 10. My Cinderella pick is young 15 year old Nico Wehner from Germany. He trains under Thorsten's coach and runs 100's daily. He has beaten Thorsten in the past head to head. No one can like playing this kid. Imho, he will definetly advance to the final 16.
As far as the women, Karen and Allison did not want to play. Jeanette Lee is probably the best womens str8pool player in the world. I am extremely confident she will advance out of the roundrobin (top 4 go).
The real question mark is what do the older "greats" have left in the tank. This is where the real variables lie. Varner, Zuglan, Hunter, Hopkins, and Siegel, all legendary world champ str8 pool players who in their prime, played on the Elite level. Jose Garcia from NJ never faired well in national tournament play, but has run over 300 several times and I am sure all the players in his group consider him a bad draw. How about pete fusco? If these guys can last through 7 guaranteed matches in 2 days, then advance to 150 point games and finally go to the final 16 where the races are to 200, and still be standing, all my predictions are off.
Smart money is on Thorsten. Even smarter money is on a German to win it.
Anyhow, it is my sincerest desire that all the players enjoy participating in the tourney and that all the fans around the world not only enjoy watching, reading and posting about it, but become the catalyst for bringing this great game back to prominence.
Thanks
RG
bruin70 said:
B-man,
No apologies necessary, everyone has their own rating systems and opinions.
I wonder if you are giving too much weight, though, to high runs. I think straight pool is WAY more than offense (if the equipment is tough), and an inferior shotmaker can often beat a better shotmaker. The high runs give absolutely no indication of a player's strategic or safety abilities.
JL has never, to my knowledge, set a day or two aside to play straight pool on a bucket-pocket table with new cloth. On a table like that a run of 200 would be extremely likely; but I'm not sure it would mean much.
Anyway, I, like you, am still impressed by the high runs, and agree that it certainly is a good indicator of shotmaking ability.
Who is Thorsten's coach? A 15 year old running 100's daily is pretty scary.
J. Schmidt has posted that he has a video of a 200+ run videotaped but I've never heard that the 400 run was taped. Any chance anyone has seen that 400 run on video? I can't think of any tape with a run higher than 150 that anyone sells or trades.
I'd pay to see them.
J. Schmidt has posted that he has a video of a 200+ run videotaped but I've never heard that the 400 run was taped. Any chance anyone has seen that 400 run on video? I can't think of any tape with a run higher than 150 that anyone sells or trades.
I'd pay to see them.
NYC cue dude said:
Wow, thanks for the great synopsis. I hope the tournament is as exciting as it sounds.
What about the chances of that Randy Goldwater character, how will he fare?
NYC cue dude
Banned
That Randy sure is a character, isn't he, but I hear he's an alright kinda guy.
I think the surest bet and smartest guaranteed money of all time is to expect 2 things from him at the tourney.
1) round robin 0-7 and out
2)But... He will give it his all, and represent the sport/event with the ultimate respect the game deserves.
I'll let him know you asked.
RG
I think the surest bet and smartest guaranteed money of all time is to expect 2 things from him at the tourney.
1) round robin 0-7 and out
2)But... He will give it his all, and represent the sport/event with the ultimate respect the game deserves.
I'll let him know you asked
.RG
TheOne said:I'm pretty sure you could run 500 on a cushionless table Willie?
TheVerySmallNumber,
I hope so (but not enough to bet on it - I tend to slow roll a lot, I could miss).
I will say that I ran a hundred in 3 innings the other day, but STILL haven't broken 50 (I'm thinking of ritually mutilating my table and trading it in for something with 5 gallon buckets for pockets - my table just keeps getting tougher and tougher as the cloth ages).
Good luck in the tourney!!!
Hey Willie what if you just shave the slate down infront of the pockets when you get it recovered? Kind of like a funnel effect. Although, I suppose the same principle would then go for the cue ball as well. Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Williebetmore said:
well,,,like i said, i understand you can't gage a players breadth of game with high runs, as there are those, you for instance, who have run 80's a few times, and there are those who might do it once.....that bespeaks a lot about the quality of game. but next time ask a few of your friends who play 14.1 what their high run is. if they play with regularity D's/teens to 20's,,,C's/30-low 40's,,,B's/50-60's,,,A-/80-90's,,,solid A's /over 100,,,open/140-170's....A/B/C/D are 9ball rankings, btw. we have none for 14.1
i've seen jeanette play on buckets...at abc in nyc, playing on the old table 8 all day. and watched her rack all day vs. her husband and hunter.
but if one can run 1xx balls, then one is certainly capable of icing 2xx-3xx players, but they'll do it to a 1xx player more often.
bruin70 said:
UCLAN-man,
I'm going to have to go on record as agreeing with everything you say.
I will say that I meant playing all day alone on a bucket table, in an attempt at high runs. If Willie Mosconi played all day against Breedlove and Hunter he would still have to put in serious racking time.
The other issue, not discussed yet, is how rusty the top players will be. Rusty in terms of concentrating the long periods necessary for competitive straight pool.
Your proposition that high run roughly equals skill is a very sound one. I wonder though, if at higher levels of skill (the very top) and difficult equipment, whether the proposition may not be so sound. I remember Jim Rempe saying at one of the late 90's straight pool events that only a handful of players could win. He completely discounted Ginky (?300 ball runner?) as a novice with no chance - ouch. I also remember seeing the Earl Strickland - Johnny Ervolino match where an aged Johnny could have won - even with fairly poor shotmaking skills in comparison.
All things being equal, I'm a lot more impressed by a run of 150 on an evil table in competition than by 400 on a bucket table (but, hell, I'd take 50 on a bucket table if I knew where to find one). I REALLY hope the upcoming World tournament will have tough equipment.
Williebetmore said:
even more so, because at the higher level, they're more consistant, and have a more dependable 14.1 philosophy. and on a rough table, the player with better position skills is more consistant because he'll invariably get closer to the ob. and rempe's remark echoes that sentiment.
there was also a prevailing feeling amongst the players(at the 14.1 tourney at the roosevelt hotel) of pure fear about playing sigel, because popping a 150 was no problem for him.
bruin70 said:
B-man,
I seem to remember someone saying the equipment was embarrassingly loose there (maybe SJM will weigh in, I'm sure he remembers). I FERVENTLY hope we'll see some tight pockets this year.
P.S. - I think Mike Sigel was probably a threat to run 150 on ANY equipment; but only the very cream of straight pool thinkers would be such a threat on really tough equipment (but will we ever have a chance to find out???) in a pressure filled competition.