Would you prefer to see 10-foot Tables in Championship matches?

[Celtic]

The only thing having a tournament on 10-foot tables proves is who plays on 10-foot tables best. That's about it. If you had a tournament with the same people on 7-foot tables, there's reason to believe you will have entirely different results and that tournament would also prove who is best on 7-footers.

I would say the last TAR race to 15 in 8-ball did not prove who played better 8-ball on a 9-foot. Also if you think that there is not alot more of a chance of a person who is considered the weaker player to overcome a opponent in any normal tournament length race on a 7-foot I don't know what to say, do you think Simon Pickering is a better 8-ball player then SVB on any table?

I would love to see the 10-foots become the standard for pro pool, WITH tighter pockets as well. The reality is that the 10-foots HAVE shown more of the true hierarchy, we saw only afew events on them but it became more clear who has better pool fundamentals.

Saying "oh it just shows who shoots better on a 10-foot" is WAY under-stating what it actually shows. It takes a higher level of aiming ability to pot balls on a 10-foot. Cueball control on a 10-foot is more difficult and thus the tables take a higher talent in shape play. On shots where one needs to spin the ball and put some power into the stroke the 10-foot requires far more stroke to get the same result and thus the table rewards a more powerful stroke. All of these things are part of what make a pool player great, and the 10-foot really tests these things at a new level we are just now seeing and the difference in the top players are starting to show.

 

[Celtic]

There will be a pro tour on the 10ft tables in the not to distant future.

This will be played eventually as a ranking event with 32 players, some of them will be the top pro snooker players and the pro pool players. There will be a qualifying tour to get in these events, so if you are good enough you get in.

The tour will be mainly in Asia, and will separate the men form the boys and will create one true champion which the sport lacks like snooker does with Ronnie O' Sullivan thus creating bigger audiences and better sponsorship deals.

This is something we are working towards, so keep your eyes open for the future of the pro game.

Sounds awesome, for Asia. WTG North America on not having a clue how to promote the game, as it continues to gain in popularity in Asia because people there know a positive thing when they see it.

Is this tour buying Diamond 10-footers or is this on the Chinese 8-ball tables?

 

[mantis99]

No. I don't think the standard of tournament play should be something different than what is reasonably attainable for the average person to play on. It's hard enough already to fit a
9 in the home. 10 footers would rarely be a viable option for a home, and you can't even go to many pool halls to play on them. I would much prefer to be able to play on the same equipment they are.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I think you may be on to something...

For all of you who state you only want to see them play on tables that you can play on, I ask you this: why does look have to be different than any other sport? Very few of us can play golf at Augusta National. Even the courses that you can play on toughen up the conditions for the pro's.

I thought if I heard another golf-pool comparison I might barf, but this post makes a very good point.

If you want to carry the comparison a bit further, let's use tables with sloping and undulating surfaces like the putting greens in the majors. Maybe different cloth on different parts of the table (with a slow, nappy cloth used as a rough)? Sets of 18 games, each on a unique size and groomed table.

While we're at it, let's get rid of those stupid pocket backs and put in a 4 1/4" cup instead? That ought to disadvantage the big strokers.

Let's face it, pool is not golf. It's much harder... just ask Earl.

As for the 10' tables, I think it's great to bring them back into competition, but continuing to compete on the other sizes just makes it more interesting IMO.

 

[justadub]

I thought if I heard another golf-pool comparison I might barf, but this post makes a very good point.

If you want to carry the comparison a bit further, let's use tables with sloping and undulating surfaces like the putting greens in the majors.

You haven't played on the tables at our club....it's a very apt comparison

 

[Celtic]

For all of you who state you only want to see them play on tables that you can play on, I ask you this: why does look have to be different than any other sport? Very few of us can play golf at Augusta National. Even the courses that you can play on toughen up the conditions for the pro's. This is the case in many sports, because the pro's are so much better than the rest of us.

^^^ This is how it needs to be if this sport will go anywhere. ^^^

Not only do amature golfers not compete on the same courses for the most part, they also have their white tees to play off of. It does not matter that the amature does not play off of the same tees or putt on greens as fast as those that the pros deal with, they know full well what a 650 yard par 5 means, they can see what 4 inch deep rough looks like with a ball buried in it, they understand the difference between the game they play and what the pros deal with.

Pros need to play on equipment and in conditions that challenge their level of talent and skill. It is not fun to watch Tiger Woods playing from the whites on an amature level golf course ripping it to shreds week in and week out and it is not fun watching pro level pool players playing on tables built to challenge amature level play and run 7 packs with complete regularity getting stopped only on dry breaks and bad rolls.

It is not about wanting to watch the pros miss either, it is about wanting to see their unique level of skill and talent tested on equipment that truly tests them, and the 4.5 inch 9-foot diamonds simply do not do that, no matter how many amature hack pool players state "the normal diamonds are plenty tough enough", they are tough enough for amature pool players just like the amature golf courses are plenty tough enough for amature golfers, for the pros the standards had to change, the PGA figured that out, pool seemed to be starting to figure that out, but there are alot of people on this thread that are completely clueless and want to fight to keep this sport in the toilet and going nowhere and it is actually pretty idiotic IMO.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

^^^ This is how it needs to be if this sport will go anywhere. ^^^

Not only do amature golfers not compete on the same courses for the most part, they also have their white tees to play off of. It does not matter that the amature does not play off of the same tees or putt on greens as fast as those that the pros deal with, they know full well what a 650 yard par 5 means, they can see what 4 inch deep rough looks like with a ball buried in it, they understand the difference between the game they play and what the pros deal with.

Pros need to play on equipment and in conditions that challenge their level of talent and skill. It is not fun to watch Tiger Woods playing from the whites on an amature level golf course ripping it to shreds week in and week out and it is not fun watching pro level pool players playing on tables built to challenge amature level play and run 7 packs with complete regularity getting stopped only on dry breaks and bad rolls.

It is not about wanting to watch the pros miss either, it is about wanting to see their unique level of skill and talent tested on equipment that truly tests them, and the 4.5 inch 9-foot diamonds simply do not do that, no matter how many amature hack pool players state "the normal diamonds are plenty tough enough", they are tough enough for amature pool players just like the amature golf courses are plenty tough enough for amature golfers, for the pros the standards had to change, the PGA figured that out, pool seemed to be starting to figure that out, but there are alot of people on this thread that are completely clueless and want to fight to keep this sport in the toilet and going nowhere and it is actually pretty idiotic IMO.

The comparison to golf is not relevant because golf is a game where power is a definite factor. The fact is most amateurs cannot physically hit the ball even nearly as far as a professional.

I've had this discussion with playing partners before. I used to play with this one guy who always insisted on playing from the tips no matter how long it was. I would ask him why and he would say "Because I want to experience the course the way the pros do."

To that I would tell him so do I and therefore for me to play the course the way the pros do and face the same challenges, I need to play from the forward tees. For example, if the fairway bunkers are out 290 yards from the back tees they are not even in play for me and don't present any kind of an obstacle like they do for the tour players. If I play forward and those same bunkers are out 250-260 now I face the same shot and challenge they do.

Similarly, I need to play up in order to have the same club into the green as the professional does. If the professionals are hitting 5 and 6 irons to a certain green and I play from the same tee, I'd have a 5 wood and wedge into that pin - not the same experience.

Courses are set up easier for the public or for the membership because that is the way they want it. I don't think pool players feel that way. I believe pool players want to play under the same conditions as professionals.

Also, the idea that the pros need to go to 10 foot tables to reveal the best players suggests that this doesn't happen now. But in most all the tournaments I have watched in recent years, it is the usual suspects there towards the end. I'd have to disagree with the idea that somehow Dennis, Alex, Dechaine, SVB, Appleton, yada yada are not necessarily among the best players because their superior performances have come on 9 foot tables.

So, if the best players are finishing highest as things stand now, than it comes down to simply whether you would prefer seeing them struggle more than they do now. If the ease of which guys are putting up packages on each other is a problem (not sure I agree that it is) the simple and free solution is to go to alternate or loser break.

I'd need to be convinced that the best players are not currently being identified to consider the notion that we need 10 foot tables. In reality I'd think nothing would change. The same guys will be 1-10.

 

[sjm]

Absolutely not. I don't even want to watch the match if they are playing on a different table than I play on. Pool rooms aren't going to put 10' footers in and there's no where to practice on 10' footers. How am I or anyone else supposed to judge where their game is, if their not even playing on the same type equipment as the pros. Even the pros would have a hard time finding a 10' footer to practice on, why do I want to see or would I pay to see a pro play on tables that they haven't had a chance to practice on except maybe a couple of hours at a tournament. I think this is absolutely the wrong direction to move in for pro pool, and I think when thought threw it really doesn't make a lot of sense. I won't support it by buying any streams with 10' foot tables nor am I buying any DVD's of any tournament played 10' foot tables.

If anything room owners are going in the opposite direction which I don't like to see either, they are taking out 9 footers and putting in more BB.

The league players don't seem all that interested in professional pool to start with. I think all people are doing by trying to have the pros play on different equipment is creating more of a disconnect than there already is. I would be willing to bet that 98% of the league players have never played on a 10' footer, for that matter they don't even have a concept as to how much harder it is to play on tight pocket 9 foot tables. Further more they don't really care! All a league player sees, if you can even get them to watch pro pool is if a professional is missing shots and that's about as far as it goes.
So I say please, leave the 9' foot tables alone.

If you want to make the game harder and apparently some of you do, play 15 ball rotation I grew up playing that and it's a great game, much harder.

If you don't like that game then play 9 ball with a full rack of balls, the nine regular balls (1-9) and say six solid yellow balls. But here again even though I like the idea of this game, you'd be playing something the average player doesn't understand. Play the game with the regular nine ball rules, where you have to shoot them in in order but as long as you make a good hit on the lowest ball if something falls you keep shooting. This way if one of the solid yellow balls is blocking a pocket you can combo it in, or make it with a carom or how ever as long as you hit the lowest ball first like in regular nine ball. Then after the yellow is made it would spot up right away, and you keep shooting.

Basically all the solid yellow balls are for is to make running out harder, by blocking position lanes and shots, forcing more exact position play, and bumping balls to achieve position. The same thing some are trying to achieve by monkeying around with the tables (10' footers).

What are room owners more likely to do, take out two 9 foot tables to put in one 10 footer, or buy six solid yellow balls. I know what the real answer is, LOL, neither, you're right. The six solid yellow balls would really be for when pool is filmed, on a stream or TV match, you could play this game with a reg set of balls it's just less obvious where the blockers are that's all. My thoughts on bringing back, the dead (Ten Footers).

My thoughts exactly.

I'll add that the ten footers give tall guys too big an edge. The tall Irving Crane often spoke of how he enjoyed this edge over Mosconi until competition switched to 9 footers.

Nice post!

 

[itsfroze]

^^^ This is how it needs to be if this sport will go anywhere. ^^^

Not only do amature golfers not compete on the same courses for the most part, they also have their white tees to play off of. It does not matter that the amature does not play off of the same tees or putt on greens as fast as those that the pros deal with, they know full well what a 650 yard par 5 means, they can see what 4 inch deep rough looks like with a ball buried in it, they understand the difference between the game they play and what the pros deal with.

Pros need to play on equipment and in conditions that challenge their level of talent and skill. It is not fun to watch Tiger Woods playing from the whites on an amature level golf course ripping it to shreds week in and week out and it is not fun watching pro level pool players playing on tables built to challenge amature level play and run 7 packs with complete regularity getting stopped only on dry breaks and bad rolls.

It is not about wanting to watch the pros miss either, it is about wanting to see their unique level of skill and talent tested on equipment that truly tests them, and the 4.5 inch 9-foot diamonds simply do not do that, no matter how many amature hack pool players state "the normal diamonds are plenty tough enough", they are tough enough for amature pool players just like the amature golf courses are plenty tough enough for amature golfers, for the pros the standards had to change, the PGA figured that out, pool seemed to be starting to figure that out, but there are alot of people on this thread that are completely clueless and want to fight to keep this sport in the toilet and going nowhere and it is actually pretty idiotic IMO.

Don't agree at all with your thoughts, as far as what amateur pool players understand, and as far as clueless goes just because i don't agree with you I won't call you names. Have a nice day!
It's really sad that people think others are clueless because they don't agree with their ideas. Maybe, just maybe that is why this sport is in the toilet. Wow, look at that we both agree it's in the toilet, common ground
what do you know!

 

[itsfroze]

If everyone is running out on 9ft. tables, then why is the biggest package I saw at the last Turning Stone tournament a five pack if I'm not mistaken??? Just one of those, I might add. Sort of puts a hole in that myth you might say! Of coarse I'm calling a package racks run in a row, not games won in a row, just to clarify.

 

[Celtic]

The comparison to golf is not relevant because golf is a game where power is a definite factor. The fact is most amateurs cannot physically hit the ball even nearly as far as a professional.

It is not "power" that allows people to hit the ball as far as they do for the most part, it is technique. It is a combination of body turn and releasing the club at the right time that creates the big club head speed.

Pool is largely similar, it is technique that allows people to break the balls as hard as they do, to shoot that table length draw shot.

The two games are actually very similar in that technique is what drives performance, not physical strength.

It is not "just" length that makes a pro course and a amature course differ. Most of the pro courses have thinner fairways, faster greens, deeper rough, and many other aspects that make the course play more difficult. The comparison is actually very apt, whether you choose to recognize that fact or not.

 

[nzjase]

Maybe as a novelty but would it in the long run be beneficial to the game? That is what really matters and will bring fans and ultimately money to the game. What is good for the game and not the pros is what matters. I am sure there are some golfers who would like to play on 12,000 yard courses with all par fives but that is a selfish reason to change the game.

Good post and point. Smaller tables, (with smaller pockets) make for some impressive viewing as a whole additional level of players seem to be able to compete on these.

I don't disagree that the bigger tables may help separate the men from the boys, look at the 12 by 6 snooker tables with 3.5 inch pockets, now that is a test. But if you are talking about attracting more players to the game, and allowing them to compete, then upping the size of the table isn't the way to go.

 

[01rkclassic]

Ten foot tables standard.......IMHO this is the reason pool will never catch on with the masses. Seems like all the pro players want to make the game even harder than it already is. Whats next pockets exactly the size of a object ball?? Making the game harder IMO does nothing but send beginning players the opposite direction of a pool table. Ive never heard a onlooker exclaim "That was so cool how the shooter hit the ball great and it hung in the pocket". To me all the changing around (Diamond Tables, Simonis Cloth, Triple shim pockets,,,ETC) Have turned the sport on its head. The ability for the average person to walk into a pool hall and make some balls, or have a chance to win a tourney is all but gone.

Probably the reason so many players or people for that matter flocked to poker. The average person does have the chance to win, even if its in the short run. Keep making a already difficult game even harder and see where pool is in another 5 or 10 years.

Most intelligent post I have read so far,if the average person that pay's for time and ultimately the rent for the pool hall can't enjoy playing the game they will not come back.Not every person that goes to a pool hall want's to play world class pool or win tournaments,some just play for enjoyment or to bring a date out for the evening.

 

[TheCueHunter]

Most intelligent post I have read so far,if the average person that pay's for time and ultimately the rent for the pool hall can't enjoy playing the game they will not come back.Not every person that goes to a pool hall want's to play world class pool or win tournaments,some just play for enjoyment or to bring a date and maybe, in my case, its a big hairy guy fresh from prison....Thats my prerogative...

There, fixed it for ya:thumbup:

 

[plfrg]

10 footers might be used in 'championship' matches but for several reasons I think we won't see much of them in the future.

For the matches I watched online, I couldn't tell they were 10' as opposed to 9'.

From a viewer standpoint, if I can't visually see the difference when watching online between a 9' and 10' table, it doesn't add much for me. I understand the players have to change their game but as a viewer it did nothing for me.

The added expense of moving the extra weight and size of the tables will likely limit their use even in big matches. This added size will definitely kill the idea for the vast majority of pool rooms. Pool rooms are already gravitating to bar boxes likely due to space and expense constraints.

I just don't see much of a value add for going to 10 ft tables.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I would say the last TAR race to 15 in 8-ball did not prove who played better 8-ball on a 9-foot. Also if you think that there is not alot more of a chance of a person who is considered the weaker player to overcome a opponent in any normal tournament length race on a 7-foot I don't know what to say, do you think Simon Pickering is a better 8-ball player then SVB on any table?

I would love to see the 10-foots become the standard for pro pool, WITH tighter pockets as well. The reality is that the 10-foots HAVE shown more of the true hierarchy, we saw only afew events on them but it became more clear who has better pool fundamentals.

Saying "oh it just shows who shoots better on a 10-foot" is WAY under-stating what it actually shows. It takes a higher level of aiming ability to pot balls on a 10-foot. Cueball control on a 10-foot is more difficult and thus the tables take a higher talent in shape play. On shots where one needs to spin the ball and put some power into the stroke the 10-foot requires far more stroke to get the same result and thus the table rewards a more powerful stroke. All of these things are part of what make a pool player great, and the 10-foot really tests these things at a new level we are just now seeing and the difference in the top players are starting to show.

I could be wrong but I would say SVB is the favorite over Simon Pickering on any table so I'm not entirely sure of your point. Seriously, I barely know what I'm talking about here so if you have a point to make, please just say it. I don't know if I've ever seen Pickering play although I probably have. Hell, maybe I even played him once or twice. Regarding 7-foot competition, I've seen enough of it in person amongst top players to say confidently that the equipment doesn't suit all of them. I will say this, the strategy for each game changes with equipment. That's a simple truth. Some players will adapt better to those changes while others won't. I think the better shot-makers like Immonen or SVB will thrive on 10-foot. If this is what you think is the definition of a finer pool player, then you'll probably see the results you want. In my opinion, that's not all what pool is about. It's a lot but not all. The smaller equipment can often require creative solutions especially given the fact that there is an assumption all layouts are runnable.

Put the pros on 10-foot tables with tight pockets and you're not necessarily going to see more missed shots. You could end up seeing more defense. In fact, if pocketing a ball is significantly harder, the standard for sufficient defense would probably diminish. Leaving your opponent any long bank or cut would be enough. The game just morphes into something else but it doesn't necessarily look prettier or more skillfull. Maybe a guy like Immonen maintains his strategy but there will be others who will just change AND they'll get wins for it.

It's still just a novelty. Maybe one day, they'll have a few events on 10-footers but honestly, I doubt it. As stated by others, I simply don't see anyone putting in the required effort to make something like this happen that not everyone is crazy about. At best, the majority is indifferent.

 

[TSW]

If you want to make the game harder and apparently some of you do, play 15 ball rotation I grew up playing that and it's a great game, much harder.

If you don't like that game then play 9 ball with a full rack of balls, the nine regular balls (1-9) and say six solid yellow balls. But here again even though I like the idea of this game, you'd be playing something the average player doesn't understand. Play the game with the regular nine ball rules, where you have to shoot them in in order but as long as you make a good hit on the lowest ball if something falls you keep shooting. This way if one of the solid yellow balls is blocking a pocket you can combo it in, or make it with a carom or how ever as long as you hit the lowest ball first like in regular nine ball. Then after the yellow is made it would spot up right away, and you keep shooting.

Basically all the solid yellow balls are for is to make running out harder, by blocking position lanes and shots, forcing more exact position play, and bumping balls to achieve position. The same thing some are trying to achieve by monkeying around with the tables (10' footers).

What are room owners more likely to do, take out two 9 foot tables to put in one 10 footer, or buy six solid yellow balls. I know what the real answer is, LOL, neither, you're right. The six solid yellow balls would really be for when pool is filmed, on a stream or TV match, you could play this game with a reg set of balls it's just less obvious where the blockers are that's all. My thoughts on bringing back, the dead (Ten Footers).

Why do you need six solid yellow balls? You can just use balls 10-15 in that role. So it would be like playing 15-ball rotation except the 9 is the only money ball.

Of course, that begs the question: why not just play 15-ball rotation to begin with?

 

[TSW]

If you want a big table with tight pockets and all the attendant challenges, play snooker. There's no need to turn championship pool into an exercise in novelty.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I doubt that it will happen but I think it would be good for two reasons. It makes the game harder (assuming the pockets don't get larger as well) and it makes the game look more impressive. Compare videos of English 8-ball where the players are about as large as the table with snooker where you have to use a bridge (rest) for a straight-in shot to the side (center) pocket. I think the large size improves the presentation and it's obvious that if the game is going to get big money it will be from a video audience. The harder part is important for the reasons discussed in CJ Wiley's thread about a dominant player.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Let's See the Pool Gladiators

^^^ This is how it needs to be if this sport will go anywhere. ^^^

Not only do amature golfers not compete on the same courses for the most part, they also have their white tees to play off of. It does not matter that the amature does not play off of the same tees or putt on greens as fast as those that the pros deal with, they know full well what a 650 yard par 5 means, they can see what 4 inch deep rough looks like with a ball buried in it, they understand the difference between the game they play and what the pros deal with.

Pros need to play on equipment and in conditions that challenge their level of talent and skill. It is not fun to watch Tiger Woods playing from the whites on an amature level golf course ripping it to shreds week in and week out and it is not fun watching pro level pool players playing on tables built to challenge amature level play and run 7 packs with complete regularity getting stopped only on dry breaks and bad rolls.

It is not about wanting to watch the pros miss either, it is about wanting to see their unique level of skill and talent tested on equipment that truly tests them, and the 4.5 inch 9-foot diamonds simply do not do that, no matter how many amature hack pool players state "the normal diamonds are plenty tough enough", they are tough enough for amature pool players just like the amature golf courses are plenty tough enough for amature golfers, for the pros the standards had to change, the PGA figured that out, pool seemed to be starting to figure that out, but there are alot of people on this thread that are completely clueless and want to fight to keep this sport in the toilet and going nowhere and it is actually pretty idiotic IMO.

I had a really tough 5/10 in my pool room for many years and it was a severe test of pool and people loved seeing me match up big games with other Top Pros and Gamblers....while many people may think the current "diamonds" are difficult, it's only because they are so much different than a regular table....the rails are springy, the cloth is irregularly fast, and the pockets are cut different than any pool table I've ever seen....and I understand why they did this TO CREATE A NICHE in the market so they could sell more tables.....it was a Great business move and I saw it happen from the very beginning when they did a deal with the Pro Billiard Tour in the early 90s.....and once they became the "norm" pool has been declining ever since....these type tables are super tough for average players and super easy for pros.....go figure.

When people see a pro run out on a tough 10' table with slower cloth (like it was a "bar" table) it sends chills down their spine....the power and position effectiveness needed to run a rack is 300% more difficult than a regular 9' table....the golf analogy is sound, it's like amateurs trying to play 480 yard par 4's against a breeze.....it's vertually impossible for an amateur, but the pro still does it with ease.....AND it brings POWER back into the pool game. Something that the normal person would have to see to believe possible.