WPBA San Diego Classic Update

[av84fun]

The pockets at Hollywood billiards, where the swannee memorial that Johny Archer just won and the tourney's that Jay's thinking about holding are a little less than 4.25". So that's atleast one, and so far, it's the only pro level event that I've played in, so it's all I have to go by, but I'll be playing in lots more, so I'll be sure to give an update on what they're played on.

Jaden

Not wrong at all. 1 is, in fact..."right around zero"...and that is a regional tour tournament where the players are forced to play on whatever equipment is available at the venue in question.

In major pro tour tournaments that are played in venues where the tables are chosen for the event, the vast majority are played on pockets larger in point width than 4.25.

And when you say the tables you mentioned were "a little less than 4.25" how did you measure that dimension? And what is the shelf depth behind the points?

Regards,
Jim

 

[alinco]

I just checked out the brackets. She beat: J. Chen, J. Lee, J. Ouschin, J. Kelly...only missing Corr/ Fisher!

GEEEZIS!

Lac didn't beat Chen but played well 7-9.

 

[av84fun]

At the Bellflower Hardtimes in LA, they shimmed all of the tables in the tournament room (10) to less than 4.5" and the business fell off because they were hard to pocket shots for beginners. Since then they are less than 4.5" but less tight and businees has picked up though table no. 1 is still left very tight.

After tightening the pockets, they had one of their last big tournaments that drew several good shooters from Canada and Northern CA. I was sweating and heard a couple of Northern shooters complain that they couldn't run out and that the pockets were too tight - they didn't fare as well as the regulars.

I used travel/vacation up North to San Jose and San Fran. back then, and all of the tables I played on were factory cut and not shimmed. In recent years though all of the pool halls now have several shimmed pocket tables.
Thanks.

As you know, shimming pockets is a very controversial procedure.

Regards,
Jim

 

[LAMas]

No wrong at all. 1 is, in fact..."right around zero"...and that is a regional tour tournament where the players are forced to play on whatever equipment is available at the venue in question.

In major pro tour tournaments that are played in venues where the tables are chosen for the event, the vast majority are played on pockets larger in point width than 4.25.

And when you say the tables you mentioned were "a little less than 4.25" how did you measure that dimension? And what is the shelf depth behind the points?
Regards,
Jim

As I said earlier in this thread that Belinda Calhoun was up at 8 (hil) to Marie's 5. Belinda entered the corner pockets, hit the side of the pocket rail and rattled, and hung in the jaws 4 times in a row - deep shelf depth ? She was exasperated. I didn't enjoy watching this kind of torture. I have to think that the angle of the sides of the pocket also wasn't favorable to good play.

The players that shot softly benefitted vs. those that tried to fire into the pockets - adapting to the table takes time. I love the way Jasmine fires with her aggresive play, but I believe that hurt her as well as being ill.

Lac was fun to watch under pressure, had some bad lays but banked shots in where you would expect a safety - very bold and entertaining.

 

[sarahrousey]

Sarah,
Thanks for the heads up - love your play and in the past - your hair do/s.
Do they use the same Brunswick tables with brown cloth and "tight" pockets at all of the venues?

I understand that there is/was a practice table upstairs. If so, that's not enough to go around for practice to get used to the tables nor the one hour before the tourney.

Are the tables that you play at home on also say double shimmed (tight)? Here in LA the Hardtimes started shimming their tables years ago and gradually most rooms have a few of them.

Thanks.

Thanks LAMas...I brought back the old crazy hair for a match there in San Diego.

As far as I recall, the only time we used the tan cloth was at Viejas. We generally switch between blue and green.

There were two practice tables upstairs and at other tournaments there are always two practice tables. Since there are only two the art of sharing comes into play. And being nice enough to let the people in the next round get ready opposed to just letting everyone practice for matches way later in the night.

And no, there isn't anything remotely close to a tight table where I live. It is really a shame.

Sarah

 

[Melissa Herndon]

As I said earlier in this thread that Belinda Calhoun was up at 8 (hil) to Marie's 5. Belinda entered the corner pockets, hit the side of the pocket rail and rattled, and hung in the jaws 4 times in a row - deep shelf depth ? She was exasperated. I didn't enjoy watching this kind of torture. I have to think that the angle of the sides of the pocket also wasn't favorable to good play.

The players that shot softly benefitted vs. those that tried to fire into the pockets - adapting to the table takes time. I love the way Jasmine fires with her aggresive play, but I believe that hurt her as well as being ill.

Lac was fun to watch under pressure, had some bad lays but banked shots in where you would expect a safety - very bold and entertaining.

Hi there -

I must respectfully disagree with your remarks regarding the Belinda match. Yes, she rattled four 9-balls to take that match....but I was watching that match...and she missed those balls. The pockets were tighter than normal....but not unfairly or unreasonably so.

We didn't need to split the pockets to make the balls. I hit plenty of rails going into the pockets...and still made balls. Like I said....Belinda just missed those shots. (In her defense...the American Airlines situation had really messed her travel schedule. She arrived in San Diego on Thursday morning...and arrived at the venue with only minutes to spare b4 her first match.)

The tables we were playing on were the brand new Gold Crown 5's....and they were not shimmed. The tighter pockets are now standard...and it is because they made the rails longer.

Of course...the conditions were more forgiving for players who used more of a roll stroke versus a power stroke....but that is due more to the brand-new cloth instead of the pockets.

Melissa

 

[LAMas]

Hi there -

I must respectfully disagree with your remarks regarding the Belinda match. Yes, she rattled four 9-balls to take that match....but I was watching that match...and she missed those balls. The pockets were tighter than normal....but not unfairly or unreasonably so.

We didn't need to split the pockets to make the balls. I hit plenty of rails going into the pockets...and still made balls. Like I said....Belinda just missed those shots. (In her defense...the American Airlines situation had really messed her travel schedule. She arrived in San Diego on Thursday morning...and arrived at the venue with only minutes to spare b4 her first match.)

The tables we were playing on were the brand new Gold Crown 5's....and they were not shimmed. The tighter pockets are now standard...and it is because they made the rails longer.

Of course...the conditions were more forgiving for players who used more of a roll stroke versus a power stroke....but that is due more to the brand-new cloth instead of the pockets.

Melissa

Hi, Best in the West,
Belinda lost because she rattled and left 4 ducks in the jaws. I agree she just missed for what ever reason, OB entry into the pocket, OB hitting the end of the rail at the mouth of the pocket and traveling to the other rail back and forth, on a deep shelf, and sitting there without being spit out or going in - I have never seen, or experienced, or benefitted by getting to shoot 4 ducks in the jaws.

It is a tribute to Sarah that she is able to play so well not having access to tight pockets to practice on like Jaden - the adjustment is not an easy one IMHO.

I appreciate that Steve T. said that the women want tighter pockets, but it isn't good unless all of the women have access to the same kind of tables. I guess that the Standards are changing as you say - GC5 have longer rails - there used to be Standards, but like Laws - they are made to be broken. Time marches on toward tighter pockets cut at different angles with different unexpected results.

I just think that it would be more comfortable if all tables were cut the same and played similarly, but alas, the tables are the same for all of the players at the tourney and they all have to adapt. It goes without saying though that those that have access to tighter pockets will hone their skills - a bit better - within their capabilities.

Thanks for your observations and I wish you continued success with the WPBA and for the players - looser pockets - LOL.

I am looking forward to the Taiwan/China invasion if it comes.

 

[av84fun]

As I said earlier in this thread that Belinda Calhoun was up at 8 (hil) to Marie's 5. Belinda entered the corner pockets, hit the side of the pocket rail and rattled, and hung in the jaws 4 times in a row - deep shelf depth ? She was exasperated. I didn't enjoy watching this kind of torture. I have to think that the angle of the sides of the pocket also wasn't favorable to good play.

The players that shot softly benefitted vs. those that tried to fire into the pockets - adapting to the table takes time. I love the way Jasmine fires with her aggresive play, but I believe that hurt her as well as being ill.

In many cases, having to "fire shots in" is a sign that shape was missed by leaving too little angle.

Almost all amateurs and even some pros shoot too hard habitually and IMHO, Jasmine is one of them. No disrespect to a great young player but I think she would benefit by leaving herself greater angles so that she could tone down the pace of her shots.

Just my .02.

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

Hi, Best in the West,
Belinda lost because she rattled and left 4 ducks in the jaws. I agree she just missed for what ever reason, OB entry into the pocket, OB hitting the end of the rail at the mouth of the pocket and traveling to the other rail back and forth, on a deep shelf, and sitting there without being spit out or going in - I have never seen, or experienced, or benefitted by getting to shoot 4 ducks in the jaws.

It is a tribute to Sarah that she is able to play so well not having access to tight pockets to practice on like Jaden - the adjustment is not an easy one IMHO.
I appreciate that Steve T. said that the women want tighter pockets, but it isn't good unless all of the women have access to the same kind of tables. I guess that the Standards are changing as you say - GC5 have longer rails - there used to be Standards, but like Laws - they are made to be broken. Time marches on toward tighter pockets cut at different angles with different unexpected results.

I just think that it would be more comfortable if all tables were cut the same and played similarly, but alas, the tables are the same for all of the players at the tourney and they all have to adapt. It goes without saying though that those that have access to tighter pockets will hone their skills - a bit better - within their capabilities.

Thanks for your observations and I wish you continued success with the WPBA and for the players - looser pockets - LOL.

I am looking forward to the Taiwan/China invasion if it comes.

I think the jury is out...way out...on whether practicing on unrealistically tight pockets is an advantage or disadvantage.

That is one of those age-old arguments about L/D shafts etc. that never will be proven one way or the other But until sports like golf, basketball, tennis, hockey etc. are practiced with smaller "targets" I don't buy the "tight pocket" theory.

Clearly, someone who plays on 4" mouse holes is going to have an advantage on THAT table against someone not used to it but that is not the issue.

The issue is whether playing on 4-4.25" pockets benefits the player who has a match on wider pockets.

I suggest that player "A" who practices on 4.625 pockets has an advantage over player "B" who practices on 4" pockets because "A" knows what he/she can get away with better than "B" who may be afraid to pound one down the rail for example.

I think that accuracy is a function of aim and stroke mechanics superiority and not a function of the size of the pockets.

Finally, as I have noted previously, tip width is a GREATLY over-emphasized statistic when the subject of "tight pockets" is raised. The shelf depth and the facing angles have AT LEAST as much to do with balls getting spit out as point width (which is usually measured incorrectly in the first place).

But I cannot recall EVER reading a post where someone said..."Wow, those pockets at Bubba's Billiards are tough as hell because of their deep shelf depth!"

(-:

 

[LAMas]

I think the jury is out...way out...on whether practicing on unrealistically tight pockets is an advantage or disadvantage.

That is one of those age-old arguments about L/D shafts etc. that never will be proven one way or the other But until sports like golf, basketball, tennis, hockey etc. are practiced with smaller "targets" I don't buy the "tight pocket" theory.

Clearly, someone who plays on 4" mouse holes is going to have an advantage on THAT table against someone not used to it but that is not the issue.

The issue is whether playing on 4-4.25" pockets benefits the player who has a match on wider pockets.

I suggest that player "A" who practices on 4.625 pockets has an advantage over player "B" who practices on 4" pockets because "A" knows what he/she can get away with better than "B" who may be afraid to pound one down the rail for example.

I think that accuracy is a function of aim and stroke mechanics superiority and not a function of the size of the pockets.

Finally, as I have noted previously, tip width is a GREATLY over-emphasized statistic when the subject of "tight pockets" is raised. The shelf depth and the facing angles have AT LEAST as much to do with balls getting spit out as point width (which is usually measured incorrectly in the first place).

But I cannot recall EVER reading a post where someone said..."Wow, those pockets at Bubba's Billiards are tough as hell because of their deep shelf depth!"
(-:

" Wow...If the shelf wasn't so deep, that 9 ball would have gone in and not hung as a duck - I would have won $$$ LOL."

Thanks.

 

[SmoothStroke]

No rail pool

Every tournament,fun pool,action..it's always the same story...every day..never ends,,annoying as annoying can get. The pockets are cut deep,bouncy rails,slow cloth, fast cloth,humid,dry,,etc, he/ she got all the rolls ...lucky....the list goes on and on.
Play no rail pool....object ball catches a rail on the way in..
FOUL....Ball in hand to opponet....great game

From what I understand...pocket the ball in the center or close to it,,it usually drops....If you have to power a ball in...Smooth and clean...they usually drop in also

 

[Johnnyt]

Wow Allison Fisher and Ga Young Kim are still 1&2 in the WPBA rankings but after that they've all changed. Jeanette Lee really took a dive=dead last. Johnnyt

 

[Dana Bufalo]

Hi there -

I must respectfully disagree with your remarks regarding the Belinda match. Yes, she rattled four 9-balls to take that match....but I was watching that match...and she missed those balls. The pockets were tighter than normal....but not unfairly or unreasonably so.

We didn't need to split the pockets to make the balls. I hit plenty of rails going into the pockets...and still made balls. Like I said....Belinda just missed those shots. (In her defense...the American Airlines situation had really messed her travel schedule. She arrived in San Diego on Thursday morning...and arrived at the venue with only minutes to spare b4 her first match.)

The tables we were playing on were the brand new Gold Crown 5's....and they were not shimmed. The tighter pockets are now standard...and it is because they made the rails longer.

Of course...the conditions were more forgiving for players who used more of a roll stroke versus a power stroke....but that is due more to the brand-new cloth instead of the pockets.

Melissa

Hi Melissa,

Who produced the San Diego event with Peg Ledman no longer on board?

 

[Pjadedd]

Wow Allison Fisher and Ga Young Kim are still 1&2 in the WPBA rankings but after that they've all changed. Jeanette Lee really took a dive=dead last. Johnnyt

That's for the yearly rankings, though. I believe Melissa said that for seeding purposes, they will now be using the last 4 events (which sucks for Melissa since she missed the Midwest Classic last year). So, Jeanette will hurt in the seedings due to only getting 100 points, but I would imagine she'll still be seeded. And, by the end of the year, I would imagine most things will even themselves out.


PJ

 

[CarolNYC]

Hi Melissa,

Who produced the San Diego event with Peg Ledman no longer on board?

Hi.
I can answer that for you-Melissa Herndon and Anne Craig-Anne was updating the website ,along with taking photos,and think she did an excellent job!-I ran merchandising and registration-the days were 15+ hour days-it was a wonderful event and the Viejas and fans were outstanding!

Not only did Melissa run this event,she played it and placed 9th-she's just too awesome!

Take care!
Carol

 

[vagabond]

I have seen Ann/Melissa/Carol working & working & working all the time from the opening to the closing.On top of that melissa played in the tournament and did very well.

 

[Jaden]

Yeah regional...

Not wrong at all. 1 is, in fact..."right around zero"...and that is a regional tour tournament where the players are forced to play on whatever equipment is available at the venue in question.

In major pro tour tournaments that are played in venues where the tables are chosen for the event, the vast majority are played on pockets larger in point width than 4.25.

And when you say the tables you mentioned were "a little less than 4.25" how did you measure that dimension? And what is the shelf depth behind the points?

Regards,
Jim

That's why there were players there from like Georgia, Texas, etc.. let's see jui lung chen was there from Texas, Johnny Archer was there along with players from the phillipines, etc... There were 190 players in that tournament from everywhere. You can't consider that tourny a regional event anymore I don't think. That is probably one fo the toughest tournies in the country with 190 top notch players.

Jaden

 

[Melissa Herndon]

Hi Melissa,

Who produced the San Diego event with Peg Ledman no longer on board?

Hi there,

The WPBA produced the event....with myself at the helm of the project, and with Anne Craig, the new WPBA office admin, doing the majority of the work.

To be honest, this tournament was pretty easy to manage. This was our 12th year in Viejas...so their staff was on top of things and new the program without any direction from us. The WPBA tournament staff was the same....Steve Tipton and Mark Wilson as TD's, and Carol Clark working the WPBA booth.

Everything ran super smoothly....no problems....and everyone who was involved has the WPBA's profound thanks!

 

[Johnnyt]

That's for the yearly rankings, though. I believe Melissa said that for seeding purposes, they will now be using the last 4 events (which sucks for Melissa since she missed the Midwest Classic last year). So, Jeanette will hurt in the seedings due to only getting 100 points, but I would imagine she'll still be seeded. And, by the end of the year, I would imagine most things will even themselves out.


PJ

I believe the rankings have just been updated again(corrected). Johnnyt

 

[CarolNYC]

Melissa and Anne ROCKED!

Hi there,

The WPBA produced the event....with myself at the helm of the project, and with Anne Craig, the new WPBA office admin, doing the majority of the work.

To be honest, this tournament was pretty easy to manage. This was our 12th year in Viejas...so their staff was on top of things and new the program without any direction from us. The WPBA tournament staff was the same....Steve Tipton and Mark Wilson as TD's, and Carol Clark working the WPBA booth.

Everything ran super smoothly....no problems....and everyone who was involved has the WPBA's profound thanks!

Mel is one of the most humblest people and bestfriend of mine-she ROCKED! Anne is just awesome-I was just a wroker bee-they were my queen bees!
I would work for them anytime,anyday,any place!

Great job Mel!

love ya,
Carol