We can ***** about this forever, but all the *****ing in the world isn't gonna fix the problems.
WPBA seeks partners/investors
- Thread starter Wags
- Start date
Whodat...I think you're the one running your mouth. I already serve on two boards regarding making pool better. What exactly do YOU do to support your position? I never said I knew what was best. I said I believe that it will take an outside businessperson to help iron out the difficulties the WPBA currently has. There are many others who also believe this, within and outside of the WPBA. Go crawl back under your bridge...once you come down off your soapbox.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott,
Just one question. What was your purpose in writing your first post on this thread? I can't find any way that it was helpful to the WPBA that you have supported for so long. Did I miss your point?
Just one question. What was your purpose in writing your first post on this thread? I can't find any way that it was helpful to the WPBA that you have supported for so long. Did I miss your point?
My post was answering the OP's post, which was about the WPBA soliciting investors, etc. to help them move forward. Many of us feel that independent businesspeople, not connected to pool, will be the only saving grace for the WPBA's future (the men's tour too). I mentioned that, imo, for a very short time they had one, but didn't/couldn't/wouldn't follow his direction. I don't know which it was, and it doesn't matter. I hope they find someone who can help them, but, like many of us, I'm not gonna hold my breath.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
You are bringing up a great point. Compare the WPBA tour with another tour, one known as NASCAR. When the race is coming to town, the teams and drivers are available for all kinds of promotional events in the days just prior to race day. Race cars are seen in front of stores like Home Depot, Lowes, and many other sponsors. Drivers work hard between races to PROMOTE their sponsors. And those public apperances help generate interest in the race, and bring out spectators. And they do that over 30 times a year. How often do we hear of pro pool players doing much more than showing up for the tournaments?
If the players want the tour to be a full time job, they have to know that they need to work full time at promoting it.
Steve
In the pool world professional players may have to laugh at the jokes of the local regulars at the room. Or even worse smile and pretend to be a pool genius. All kidding aside the people that spend the money always like a good show for what they spend.
I just finished watching what actors/actresses do at fan events and the fans just want them to be the "character." It isn't a bad gig it may take some getting use to but it is all fun and advertising. The worst is if the players have an employer who pretends to be a control freak because he doesn't want you thinking about how cheap he is.
I could imagine using the pro's nicknames and just completely making a fool of myself at an event because I am having a good time. Saying every famous line to a pool pro while goofing off it is such a fan thing.
A common trick I have seen is different entry fees. Place the pros in a gated area and call that the luxury entry fee. Outside of the gated area is the cheap seats. Those tiny distinctions really get people excited because of the black box effect of marketing. People just like to imagine different levels of distinction before the event takes place.
At an industry closer to the pool world they just put the players out there to mingle with the fans and hope to generate some contact between the fan world and the pro world. People love to say "I met so and so, and bla bla said this to me and said this to bla bla and ..." Structured activities is hard to do if people aren't comfortable speaking in public or just "goofing off."
I never see Nascar in NYC. Imagine they close off the roads like they do for the marathon, that would be crazy. They might actually fix all the roads if Nascar came to NYC.
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Scott,
The way you have now stated your opinion is one I cannot disagree with and is indeed helpful. I think your choice of words, "they screwed themselves" was just in poor taste and served no positive purpose. It is just a possibility that JR did have some small issues with his "people skills" and was just not a good fit for the WPBA. Thank you for the clarification of your opinion.
The way you have now stated your opinion is one I cannot disagree with and is indeed helpful. I think your choice of words, "they screwed themselves" was just in poor taste and served no positive purpose. It is just a possibility that JR did have some small issues with his "people skills" and was just not a good fit for the WPBA. Thank you for the clarification of your opinion.
My opinion?
This is pathetic. It is a joke. It is not the way it is done.
The WPBA needs to put together a compelling package and individually pitch it to potential sponsors and convince them why they would be stupid not to sponsor them. Doing it right is hard, expensive work. Whoever is driving the bus on this should be shot.
(Not that I have any particular strong reaction to this
Lou Figueroa
mlalum
Banned
Great Post. This is the most overlooked point in this pool community. Pool players need to stop feeling entitled. Every successful entertainment franchise the players must by rule/contract/whatever promote the thing that feeds them no matter what. Never seen or heard of it with professional pool players. Probably has happened just not the rule. If you want a professional pool whatever the community has to get past the myth that people are entitled to paychecks because they skipped school and work to learn how to beat people on a pool table. Nobody is entitled when it comes to business.
mlalum
Banned
My opinion?
This is pathetic. It is a joke. It is not the way it is done.
The WPBA needs to put together a compelling package and individually pitch it to potential sponsors and convince them why they would be stupid not to sponsor them. Doing it right is hard, expensive work. Whoever is driving the bus on this should be shot.
(Not that I have any particular strong reaction to this
Lou Figueroa
Lou you aren't being your usual elegant self which i enjoy reading.
Say I'm an investor. This letter is obviously a desperate measure. And it definitely isn't real world. They make several beginner mistakes when it comes to trying to raise money in the business world.
And it's obvious they're not looking for an investor. The letter makes you think they're looking for someone to give them money and to help them be successful on their terms. Not happening.
A real investor would ask them what they value their organization at dollar wise. Is their any real value to it. I don't know. They have to make a case that they have some value and some compelling information that convinces me they are going to make enough money to where I'm happy as an investor. Otherwise why would I invest. There's no evidence of this.
If they say the WPBA is worth $20,000 and i invest anything over that I effectively own the company and will now direct it's future. I don't think that's what they're looking for. So they really shouldn't use the term investor.
But It's not very often you see people giving large amounts of money to an organization with out having any real idea how they're going to get that money back. Other than a pure donation. You can't run an effective organization on donations because you can't bank on it year after year.
An earlier poster mentioned how Paul Allen bought the Pro Bowling Association. They still later went bankrupt. They continue to regenerate because of their ESPN deal. They continue to try to reinvent using different formats. Still It could go at any second again. And as a sport Bowling has a lot more to offer a sponsor than Pool. And every one of their players is promoting like crazy.
Without knowing the WPBA financials adopting the way the men have carried on may make the most sense - a series of tournaments promoted by other folks.
My opinion?
This is pathetic. It is a joke. It is not the way it is done.
The WPBA needs to put together a compelling package and individually pitch it to potential sponsors and convince them why they would be stupid not to sponsor them. Doing it right is hard, expensive work. Whoever is driving the bus on this should be shot.
(Not that I have any particular strong reaction to this
Lou Figueroa
Lou is right on here. You want somebody to invest in you, then you better show them why you're a good investment. A comprehensive package, perhaps prepared by a good PR firm, would go a long way toward attracting investors or sponsors. Right now, all I read is a couple of sentences about the WPBA that assumes that you know all about them and their accomplishments. Sorry but that won't cut it in the real world. And in today's economic climate, I would say that MORE is BETTER!
I'm sorry to say that the initial solicitation made in the OP original post reads more like a very dressed up plea for money, much like a beggar in a tux with a well worded sign by the freeway off ramp.
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The WPBA has done a fine job and lasted this long. A lot of major companies declare bankruptcy or sell out to a larger organization by now. It is clear that they have strong financial skills.
The timing of this announcement after the announcement regarding format changes is unusual because it seems the organization wanted to make a cut but decided against it because of the players. And in order to uphold their promises to the players they are taking early action to do that, they won't delay payments.
What people are telling the players they should be doing is a great idea. But some players are not trained to handle promotional work. It seems the WPBA reached out to the community that knows it and hopes someone reaches back.
I don't know how many wealthy investors there are in the crowds but if there is one that is the person they are looking for, a corporate group would be great but they didn't do the work for a corporate group, they are called press kits or giveaways (The Hollywood expression is Swag).
People on this board have a lot of great ideas but they are not ideas towards the objectives the WPBA seems to be working towards accomplishing. The ideas do remind me a lot about another industry which has contracts and people to do all kinds of special work.
The timing of this announcement after the announcement regarding format changes is unusual because it seems the organization wanted to make a cut but decided against it because of the players. And in order to uphold their promises to the players they are taking early action to do that, they won't delay payments.
What people are telling the players they should be doing is a great idea. But some players are not trained to handle promotional work. It seems the WPBA reached out to the community that knows it and hopes someone reaches back.
I don't know how many wealthy investors there are in the crowds but if there is one that is the person they are looking for, a corporate group would be great but they didn't do the work for a corporate group, they are called press kits or giveaways (The Hollywood expression is Swag).
People on this board have a lot of great ideas but they are not ideas towards the objectives the WPBA seems to be working towards accomplishing. The ideas do remind me a lot about another industry which has contracts and people to do all kinds of special work.
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Investors?
Has anyone drawn up a business plan to show these would be investors how they will get a "ROI" (Return on their Investment). Tours are expensive as any promoter will tell you. I sometimes wonder if it's even possible for "investors" to make any money on promoting pool tournaments and tours.
If a tournament were live-streamed on the internet, how many UVs would watch it and the advertisements that would also be on the page to pay for it? If every APA player watched it that's still only 300,000 UVs (unique visitors). A large sponsor would likely want millions of UVs for their investment. I am not convinced that many people would turn out to watch the finals of the U.S. Open. I haven't seen the Nielsen data for shows like ESPN's Trick Shot Magic but I imagine they have a much higher number of viewers than the regular pool tournaments we see on TV.
I fully understand the pool and billiards is a long tail business plan at best in the short to mid term but ROI is something I think goes forgotten whenever the plea for an "investor" is made.
Anyone have any thoughts on how the investors (particularly those outside of the pool industry) get their money back?
Has anyone drawn up a business plan to show these would be investors how they will get a "ROI" (Return on their Investment). Tours are expensive as any promoter will tell you. I sometimes wonder if it's even possible for "investors" to make any money on promoting pool tournaments and tours.
If a tournament were live-streamed on the internet, how many UVs would watch it and the advertisements that would also be on the page to pay for it? If every APA player watched it that's still only 300,000 UVs (unique visitors). A large sponsor would likely want millions of UVs for their investment. I am not convinced that many people would turn out to watch the finals of the U.S. Open. I haven't seen the Nielsen data for shows like ESPN's Trick Shot Magic but I imagine they have a much higher number of viewers than the regular pool tournaments we see on TV.
I fully understand the pool and billiards is a long tail business plan at best in the short to mid term but ROI is something I think goes forgotten whenever the plea for an "investor" is made.
Anyone have any thoughts on how the investors (particularly those outside of the pool industry) get their money back?
Some investors don't like a return on their investment. Look at all the scams that had "investors" who got a good show and no return on investment.
I invest in television and I don't expect to make a profit by owning one. Some things are just entertainment purposes.
A bunch of guys run a free newspaper at a loss because they just like putting something different out there.
The thinking isn't go big or draw huge numbers those are "pipe dreams." The thinking is this is what the situation of the organization is in and the problem is how to solve it, not how to solve something else.
It seems when the women split they endured less payouts that were delayed then the men from events.
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I was talking about corporate investors. I wouldn't call buying a TV making an investment in the TV. You of course are free to call it anything you like.
Canned Dog Food may be considered by some to be Filet Mignon.
Back when I was in elementary school we used to donate a dollar and get a little button that said "Send a mouse to college" I still have the button. Did I invest in that mouse's education? It probably was used in some lab experiment and likely died from the experience. Maybe we should have an adopt a player program in the schools. If every school age child contributed a dollar then we'd have enough money for a tour! (note obvious sarcasm)
I am sure you can find another IPT promoter, there are plenty of people that know get rich quick schemes and have the money and clothes to back it up.
Why not consider the practical route and see where it leads? ( I am always thinking about fast track ways to retirement without indictment. But time spent learning the system takes time.)
Wpba
As you said "Unbelieveable" pretty much sums it up.
As you said "Unbelieveable" pretty much sums it up.
mlalum
Banned
I hope the WPBA succeeds. But your ideas are not practical or realistic from a business perspective.
I just like hearing what people will say in the argument against. Focus groups got too expensive for me, this is cheaper.
The WPBA is succeeding it seems people here just disagree with how they succeed and what they should be succeeding at. (This is great research data BTW.)
You are right from a business perspective the people begging should be the ones that need the players to show up not the management that arranges finances. The economy is tight and some people are taking on multiple roles.
I just had to think about it for awhile before your sense was made clear to me.
It isn't like some promoter would broadcast a NY girls phone message about not showing up. But then again promoters are risk takers. I am sure as long as the players do what the promoters need everything will go smoothly. That policy hasn't changed. The WPBA has a new one and it is public disclosure. That isn't a trend that will go over well with competitors.
Did you have any thoughts about their public statement? I try to get the thread back on course of the OP after this quick discussion. It is a bump in the road quick exchanges like this but part of the journey.
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Wpba investors
Justnum- much of what you say just does not make sense. Please edit or proofread before posting. This is a serious discussion to many and I think your comments are just a 'little off point' - IMHO.
You state the Wpba has been doing fine for years and talk about Finding another IPT promoter. You need to go out and get the facts a little straighter.
Bottom line is that the WPBA needs help in marketing their product - but that does not qualify as an investor relationship. That becomes a donation - which is not sustainable. I also wish the the WPBA success but they need to find a GPS.
Mark griffin
Justnum- much of what you say just does not make sense. Please edit or proofread before posting. This is a serious discussion to many and I think your comments are just a 'little off point' - IMHO.
You state the Wpba has been doing fine for years and talk about Finding another IPT promoter. You need to go out and get the facts a little straighter.
Bottom line is that the WPBA needs help in marketing their product - but that does not qualify as an investor relationship. That becomes a donation - which is not sustainable. I also wish the the WPBA success but they need to find a GPS.
Mark griffin