WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[cfrandy]

After watching the video "Billiards Inside Secrets", which CJ says demonstrates the "hammer" stroke, I have a few things to point out! CJ, you say (regarding the hammering of a nail) "Although it isn't the action that is happening in the stroke" then you say (again regarding hammering of a nail) "Feel that same motion, that kinetic energy that is going to be transferred to the tip". These are your own words in comparing the hammer stroke in pool to the hammer stroke in hammering a nail. My question is, if it is not the same motion...how can you feel the same energy?
In this same segment you demonstrate the hammer stroke at the pool table. IMO the "power" stroke you use is actually a piston stroke. Evidenced by the elbow drop from backstroke to impact. This is not to say, you can't add power to the "piston" by gripping the cue in a "strong athletic position" because you do. However, it is also evident in the video, there is no wrist action. Yes, the wrist is "hinged" (that is how you create the tension to power the piston) but it never unhinges until after impact. In fact, it appears to simply pronate (evidenced by the knuckles and the "V" created by the thumb and index finger). It is true, you hold the cue in a hammer-like grip but it is not used nor creates the same motion as it would in other sports. You have said this yourself about the motion. Additionally, it is evident that you do not hold the cue in your fingers. If you did, the heel of your palm would not touch the cue butt handle at any time except follow through. In golf, your grip is referred to as a "palm grip" and it is used to aid in swinging the club on a single plane (ie: Moe Norman). With all said, I agree you can create a powerful stroke using your method. However, with all due respect calling it a "hammer stroke" when it is actually a "piston stroke" just confuses dummies like me!
In the still below (from the BIS video) the left frame is at full draw and the right is at impact with the cueball. The time lapse is about 2/10s of a sec. The yellow arrows simply indicate the position of your elbow, butt cap, and thumb.

 

[cookie man]

Mr.AtLarge...Seriously, can you (or anyone) please define what BHE really means..I know it stands for 'Back Hand English', but can you please verbalize, where it differs from what good players have been doing all along ?..I have learned what most of the acronyms stand for..But I have a lot of trouble relating to them, as a way to explain real live 'shot-making decisions' or proper stroking fundamentals !...Am I too old to grasp the 'information age' ? (I hope not :sorry

So far, I have not even read a plausible explanation for CTE, yet it appears to be the most popular aiming system of all !..And what is the difference between plain old 'CTE', and 'CTE-Pro1'..To me, that sounds like Madison Ave. ad men, trying to convince us that.."The New Improved Tide, will get clothes cleaner"...Why ???..Was the 'old Tide' garbage ?..Where does it end ?
..Whats next..'TOI Pro-Perfected II and III' ? (gimme a break )

PS..I Do not mean to sound so negative..I just feel there are better, far less confusing ways, of imparting knowledge to people eager to learn the game !

Then why don't you impart some usefull knowledge instead of tearing everything down.

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's the pressure of the hammer motion, not the movement of the wrist

After watching the video "Billiards Inside Secrets", which CJ says demonstrates the "hammer" stroke, I have a few things to point out! CJ, you say (regarding the hammering of a nail) "Although it isn't the action that is happening in the stroke" then you say (again regarding hammering of a nail) "Feel that same motion, that kinetic energy that is going to be transferred to the tip". These are your own words in comparing the hammer stroke in pool to the hammer stroke in hammering a nail. My question is, if it is not the same motion...how can you feel the same energy?
In this same segment you demonstrate the hammer stroke at the pool table. IMO the "power" stroke you use is actually a piston stroke. Evidenced by the elbow drop from backstroke to impact. This is not to say, you can't add power to the "piston" by gripping the cue in a "strong athletic position" because you do. However, it is also evident in the video, there is no wrist action. Yes, the wrist is "hinged" (that is how you create the tension to power the piston) but it never unhinges until after impact. In fact, it appears to simply pronate (evidenced by the knuckles and the "V" created by the thumb and index finger). It is true, you hold the cue in a hammer-like grip but it is not used nor creates the same motion as it would in other sports. You have said this yourself about the motion. Additionally, it is evident that you do not hold the cue in your fingers. If you did, the heel of your palm would not touch the cue butt handle at any time except follow through. In golf, your grip is referred to as a "palm grip" and it is used to aid in swinging the club on a single plane (ie: Moe Norman). With all said, I agree you can create a powerful stroke using your method. However, with all due respect calling it a "hammer stroke" when it is actually a "piston stroke" just confuses dummies like me!
In the still below (from the BIS video) the left frame is at full draw and the right is at impact with the cueball. The time lapse is about 2/10s of a sec. The yellow arrows simply indicate the position of your elbow, butt cap, and thumb.

Yes, as I've said before many times, it's the pressure of the hammer motion, not the movement of the wrist. The movement is stopped by the bridge hand, so there's very little apparent wrist motion. However, if I was to move my bridge hand at the moment of contact the cue would accelerate down quickly.

 

[One Pocket John]

Cfrandy.

If you could see a view of his hand from behind during the stroke it is opening and closing on the handle of the hammer. (pressure on the handle)

Man, this stuff is hard to write about.

John :smile:

 

[cfrandy]

Yes, as I've said before many times, it's the pressure of the hammer motion, not the movement of the wrist. The movement is stopped by the bridge hand, so there's very little apparent wrist motion. However, if I was to move my bridge hand at the moment of contact the cue would accelerate down quickly.

I have also used a piston stroke for breaking and power, but I have never varied my grip pressure. I must try this and see the results...thank you!

 

[SJDinPHX]

Then why don't you impart some usefull knowledge instead of tearing everything down.

As I said, I do not understand the new-fangled method of 'information peddling', via all the new acronyms..They didn't even exist, in my playing days, so I don't feel I'm qualified !..Sorry if you equate my asking for improved clarity, to "tearing down"! (please note PS*)

It seems to be obvious though, I am not the only one who finds it very frustrating and confusing, trying to conjure up visual images of "hammer stroking" or (God forbid) "fly casting", when discussing anything relating to a pool stroke ! :sorry:

Yes, as I've said before many times, it's the pressure of the hammer motion, not the movement of the wrist. <--????? The movement is stopped by the bridge hand, so there's very little apparent wrist motion. However, if I was to move my bridge hand at the moment of contact the cue would accelerate down quickly.

*PS..Also, let me ask this,...Who would even consider "moving their bridge hand, at the moment of contact" ?..That would be a
VERY BAD 'beginner' move, indeed ! ..Why would you make such an obvious statement ?..."KISS is my teacher"

 

[HawaiianEye]

*PS..Also, let me ask this,...Who would even consider "moving their bridge hand, at the moment of contact" ?..That would be a
VERY BAD 'beginner' move, indeed ! :

Aloha SJD,

I think confusion is caused because not everyone thinks, speaks, and writes in same manner. Writing ESPECIALLY! Also, everyone has different backgrounds which makes their comparisons to different things DIFFERENT.

I think he may be referring to the "feeling" of hammering a nail without actually him having to move the wrist in a hammer-like motion. When he says his cue would accelerate downward quickly, I think he is trying to explain the "pressure" he is exerting instead of the actual motion.

I use a firmer grip than most people do because I think it gives me more feel for how I hit the cue ball. I haven't bought any hammers or swords to compare what my grip feels like though.

I like the KISS method also.

 

[SilverCue]

..."KISS is my teacher"

KISS is a great teacher. :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

[CJ Wiley]

since it can't be seen, it must be described kinesthetically

Aloha SJD,

I think confusion is caused because not everyone thinks, speaks, and writes in same manner. Writing ESPECIALLY! Also, everyone has different backgrounds which makes their comparisons to different things DIFFERENT.

I think he may be referring to the "feeling" of hammering a nail without actually him having to move the wrist in a hammer-like motion. When he says his cue would accelerate downward quickly, I think he is trying to explain the "pressure" he is exerting instead of the actual motion.

I use a firmer grip than most people do because I think it gives me more feel for how I hit the cue ball. I haven't bought any hammers or swords to compare what my grip feels like though.

I like the KISS method also.

Yes, you are correct, the wrist isn't actually moving because of the bridge hand. It is the pressure I'm referring to - since it can't be seen in this context, it must be described kinesthetically.

Isolating this motion and cutting out the other unnecessary movements produces a more accurate and powerful contact - this produces the maximum acceleration directly at contact, which is very effective when done properly.

I can show this technique in a matter of 30 minutes, however, to describe it in writing is, indeed, challenging. Everyone understands in a different way when reading, that's why the demonstration is critical.

 

[CJ Wiley]

On shots requiring a smaller back stroke it's possible to keep it consistent

I have also used a piston stroke for breaking and power, but I have never varied my grip pressure. I must try this and see the results...thank you!

You have to vary your grip pressure to some degree to open and close your hand at impact. On shots requiring a smaller back stroke it's possible to keep it consistent because the hand doesn't need to open and close, although on full shots this isn't recommended.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Yes, you are correct, the wrist isn't actually moving because of the bridge hand. It is the pressure I'm referring to - since it can't be seen in this context, it must be described kinesthetically.

Isolating this motion and cutting out the other unnecessary movements produces a more accurate and powerful contact - this produces the maximum acceleration directly at contact, which is very effective when done properly.

Can you tell me how the leverage allowing you to put downward pressure on your bridge at the last instant moves the cue forward at all? If the cue isn't moving forward from this pressure, you cannot have any acceleration at all. There are many ways that acceleration can be expressed, but all of them require that the object itself is being moved along some direction.

Regardless of what you claim you are doing to the CB with this pressure, you are doing nothing to advance the cue forward by applying downward pressure at the tip. So, how are you accelerating the cue if you aren't actually making the cue move forward at all?

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

My cue is accelerating through the cue ball on my stroke. I don't know because I haven't really watched myself but apparently I have a flat straight stroke. What CJ is saying makes sense in my head because it's like he's in my head, we shoot with the same mindset.

I'm sure you are right. Everybody's cue accelerates through the ball on the follow through, but first it experiences a violent deceleration to about 60% of its pre-contact speed before once again accelerating through the space the cue ball had been occupying.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

..........

 

[JoeyA]

There a I fixed it for you.

..........

Sorry, your cue stick cannot accelerate through the cue ball.

It is physically impossible for that to happen.

JoeyA

 

[Mikjary]

Yes, you are correct, the wrist isn't actually moving because of the bridge hand. It is the pressure I'm referring to - since it can't be seen in this context, it must be described kinesthetically.

Isolating this motion and cutting out the other unnecessary movements produces a more accurate and powerful contact - this produces the maximum acceleration directly at contact, which is very effective when done properly.

I can show this technique in a matter of 30 minutes, however, to describe it in writing is, indeed, challenging. Everyone understands in a different way when reading, that's why the demonstration is critical.

Good post. This is exactly what I feel when I put a good stroke on the cue ball. I always figured everybody played this way until this thread pointed out the different ways of using the wrist.

Though I drive less nails at work these days and manage a screw gun more often, I still remember what it took to drive those things. My hand was pretty numb and worn out. Toward the end of the day, I'd start to use more arm because the hand was exhausted. It would affect my pool game for an hour or two after work until I could rest up a bit.

I think maybe a third or less of players employ some fashion of this stroke and another third use the hand/fingers to propel the cue forward. If I think about it, I can shoot with a forward wrist flick, but I've got very little speed control. I don't lose any accuracy or stroke, but the cue ball takes off on me.

Best,
Mike

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Sorry, your cue stick cannot accelerate through the cue ball.

It is physically impossible for that to happen.

JoeyA

Well, now, you can't accelerate through the actual physical ball, but you certainly accelerate through the space the the ball was occupying.

The square in red shows the acceleration of the cue after the contact. The shape of the acceleration curve is similar to the curve before contact but is smaller in magnitude.

Of course, the ball is long gone by this point, but you still accelerate the cue for a brief time before the cue slows down and stops. Unless you're one of those guys who let's go of the cue before impact and just lets it fly at the ball.

 

[CJ Wiley]

every player moves the cue forward no matter what style they choose.

Can you tell me how the leverage allowing you to put downward pressure on your bridge at the last instant moves the cue forward at all? If the cue isn't moving forward from this pressure, you cannot have any acceleration at all. There are many ways that acceleration can be expressed, but all of them require that the object itself is being moved along some direction.

Regardless of what you claim you are doing to the CB with this pressure, you are doing nothing to advance the cue forward by applying downward pressure at the tip. So, how are you accelerating the cue if you aren't actually making the cue move forward at all?

I believe if you watched my play you'd see I'm advancing the cue ball forward on every shot. Of course the cue moves forward, that's common sense, every player moves the cue forward no matter what style they choose.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"real eyes" this happens all the time

Oh my! Two times in less than a month!


JoeyA

I wonder how long it will take to "real eyes" this happens all the time?

 

[Straightpool_99]

...........

 

[SJDinPHX]

Dear Lord...This again? Congratulations, you guys have managed the incredible, making me hate both physics and pool, I didn't think it possible, but here it is........

..... Forget about what you feel in your hands and see with your eyes, or at least don't try to describe it to anyone, someone might misunderstand you....don't think these constant interjections are meant to be helpful at all. I rather think they are meant to be disruptive and annoying. It's like the grammar Nazis gave up on grammar and became physics Nazis instead. That's just me though, I might be wrong about this.

No SP 99, You are 100% correct !...It is amazing how many people, listen to other people, who keep trying to explain the dynamics of a 'pool stroke' ! ..They might as well try to explain why 'water is wet', or 'grass is green' !..There are a few,
(CJ for one).. who keep floundering away at this, and think they are somehow 'enlightening us' ! ..IMHO, their efforts are about as rewarding and beneficial, as watching paint dry !...I can only feel empathy, for those who think this is reality ! :sorry: