Yes, I am LAZY!

Kudos to you, Kj, and Joey. It's good to know other people see the same things......
I was raised in a family business to know right from wrong, and in most cases, what I've seen of Lee's ways of business in the last 3 years has been less than right at best. It's not just about the products you can steal or buy and bring to the market place as your own, it's about having integrity in the way you conduct youself and your business. If you sell a product that you didn't invent yourself, then you should sell it with full credit to the developer acknowledged. And if you state you will stand behind that product, and give full support, then you should. If you say, 'just call me' then answer the damm phone. There shouldn't be a 'special' way to get ahold of the seller, as other's have described in other posts in other threads. If you post a phone # and email address, then you should respond, not ignore.
Dave <<<thinks if you put Lee and Joe in a bag, the only way to tell them apart is whose riding the motorcycle....
 
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Oh no. Now we are starting to make sense.........

FWIW KJ I nominate that post for post of the year.

John
 
KJ Cues said:
Thank You Joey.

Several people have missed the point so let me lay it out in it's simplest terms.
This is not about patent infringement. No one involved in this dispute has a patent on anything so let's take that off the table and leave it out of the discussion. It only serves to cloud the issue.
What this boils down to is the 'taking' of someone's intellectual property, claiming it to be their own and selling it for personal gain.

Now, before the keyboard lawyers start spouting their version of what's legal and what's not legal, let me save you the strokes. It's about personal ethics.
There is no judicial provision for that. BDcues, go look that up and tell us what you find.
It's about how we conduct ourselves, how we do business and how we treat our fellow man. Apparently, these qualities take second chair when money is involved.

I don't need to hear about what goes on out in the world and have that used as justification for the injustice that I see here on a daily basis.
I'm honestly disturbed by the behavior that some here will condone. Not only condone but outright promote and protect. I'm sorry, but some people are beyond shame.

Has the moral structure of our society declined to such an extent that behavior of this type is now considered acceptable? Obviously this is a rhetorical question because it's equally as obvious that it has.

Who among you is waiting for someone to tell you what is right and what is wrong? I truly hope that you find out which is which while it still matters.
Click to expand...

tap,tap,tap...
 
Jim, was there an expectation of compensation in this transaction, and if so, was that part of the deal upheld for the units that were sold?
Mr H
 
i have never had a problem with lee,he has be very helpful with me and i didn't have to spend thousands on supplys from him to get any answers i needed.In my book he is on the level...
 
tag said:
i have never had a problem with lee,he has be very helpful with me and i didn't have to spend thousands on supplys from him to get any answers i needed.In my book he is on the level...
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It might be helpful if the man chimed in here........
 
Hi,

Two simple facts, "there is always two sides to every story or argument and it is never a good idea to say bad things about someone in the same business your are in". Come to think of it, it is never good to speak ill of anyone regardless.

As for Lee, I have spent about 6 or 7 thousand dollars with the man and he has been a prince as far as I am concerned.

As far as Lee not being an expert on CNC, I don't remember him ever claiming to be one. One thing I know for sure is you should never get into a business arrangement without getting things in writing. People tend to have selective memory with the passing of time and a contract helps everyone remember what they were to be committed to as far as consideration to said agreement.

If you are the CNC Guru and I don't doubt that you are, then go and market your product and best wishes to you. I do know that Lee is a guy that works very hard at what he does and one thing is for sure, he is not lazy. Did you ever see what he carts into the booths at the trade shows?

Rick G
 
Mr Hoppe said:
Jim, was there an expectation of compensation in this transaction, and if so, was that part of the deal upheld for the units that were sold?
Mr H
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Hr. H, yes there was an expectation here. I would be foolish to think that Lee would spend all of the money on this project and that I would collect 50% of the money. For starters, I planned on helping Lee asseble the prototypes. He didn't wait. He rushed through the build and I had to help fix the issues. I have spent over $2k in parts that Lee just seems to have forgotten about. I didn't keep track, ok, my bad. As mentioned previously the first machine that Lee paid someone else to put together was not even close to usable. I eventuly helped him straighten it out as patient as I could. This was my machine, and I didn't get the satisfaction of building it. I of course once getting it back rebuilt it. Now the second machine was to be Lee's. Again he was too impatient. He sold it befor it was done and tested to a guy that owns a machine shop. Now the guy that purchased the machine payed for it in cash and some trading of product that was made for Lee and myslef. I had no control over this however Lee said that I would get 1/2 of the selling price of every indexing fixture sold out of this lot. By the way, that was my idea also. This was Lee's way of making it fair to me. I should point out now that I have made exactly $37.50 as I was only told about 1 sale. I am sure though that no others are out there. Oh well I could have used that money. Ok back to the story. Now I told Lee that when this guy gets this machine home he will be un-happy. This is because Lee had his guy asseble the machine exactly the same way, drilling holes and tapping the 80/20 by hand. No indicator touched this machine until I got there. This would be the part where I spent very little time on the machine. If it wasn't straight I can't do much. By the way Lee would always destract me whit questions about something else. Now his employee is only doing what he is told to do here so it isn't his fault but he got the blame. Of course the customer wanted to return the machine. Lee didn't know what to do so he stopped taking this guys calls. This is where I took over. I worked with the guy for over a month. Actually he did a great job getting that machine in good working order. We he still was not happy, alot of it was no real response from you know who. He returned it at the U.S. Open last year. Mind you I was there with Lee, on my dime, promoting the improved machine. By the way, there wasn't much I could do since Lee was un-prepeared and parts where missing. Now I can tell you, its hard to sell a prdouct that is not tested yet. Now my profit is on hold once again, well my investment anyways. Insert wife not happy here. Now Lee has not paid the first customer back yet. He holds on to this machine for at least another month or two. I ask him what are you nuts, this guy spent several hours making this machine work better. I told Lee to sell the machine for $6000 and make a profit since he only owed the other guy $5000. He did. He sold it to Stoney I believe. I would know this since I had been contacted on a couple of occations and Lee had not helped him set it up correctly. Sorry Stoney if I didn't seem too helpful, but can you blame me. I guess when Lee sold this machine a second time and made an extra grand I started getting pissed off. I had to push him into it and he still made money and I didn't. Lee at this point gives me the Lighting machine, which I had to re-build and thinks we are all good. Now we finally get two the next two machines that Lee has already promised that I would get 50% of the money. Lee sells the machines and stops taking my calls. I have not bug him about it. When I did get him to talk to me, I asked him to compensate me for my ideas or stop making them. Well Lee is a generous man. He has given me several small items between then and now. Most of wich I can make myself. I am sure in his mind he is golden here. Mostly what I ended up with is alot of broken promises and a bad taste in my mouth. If Lee has sold 10 of those machines though, I will eat my hat. If he did you would see several post on the matter for good or bad. The only thing I see is for sale. I do know that he has sold a couple of them since I get contacted for help. This is when Lee stops taking their calls. All being said, it is a good machine. It will do what it is supposed to do, in the correct hands that is.

If you have any additional questions Mr. H, please ask.

Jim.
 
scdiveteam said:
I do know that Lee is a guy that works very hard at what he does and one thing is for sure, he is not lazy. Did you ever see what he carts into the booths at the trade shows?

Rick G
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Rick, I agree with alot of what you are saying. I learned a leason. Now to answer your questions as above. Yes, I know exactly what Lee carts in to a show as I have been there with him. By your statement I know that you have not witnessed this. The correct answer is attitude. Lee pays someone else to do the grunt work. He does not do the lifting. He rarely gets out of his chair when he is working. Again, I doubt you would know this. When I use the term lazy, I am refering to working smarter and not harder. This is a concept that Lee does not know, so I stand corrected. Lee is not as lazy as I am.

Jim.
 
scdiveteam said:
Hi,

Two simple facts, "there is always two sides to every story or argument and it is never a good idea to say bad things about someone in the same business your are in". Come to think of it, it is never good to speak ill of anyone regardless.

As for Lee, I have spent about 6 or 7 thousand dollars with the man and he has been a prince as far as I am concerned.

As far as Lee not being an expert on CNC, I don't remember him ever claiming to be one. One thing I know for sure is you should never get into a business arrangement without getting things in writing. People tend to have selective memory with the passing of time and a contract helps everyone remember what they were to be committed to as far as consideration to said agreement.

If you are the CNC Guru and I don't doubt that you are, then go and market your product and best wishes to you. I do know that Lee is a guy that works very hard at what he does and one thing is for sure, he is not lazy. Did you ever see what he carts into the booths at the trade shows?

Rick G
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Thanks Rick for not only your business but your support! Your right I never have claimed to be a CNC expert, what I am an expert on is taking an idea from nothing to completion a timely manor. Where I pass on a suprior product at a fair price. It takes several poeple to complete these machines and other items and sell them, from paper and cad drawings to crating and shipping. I never have or want to take all the credit for this machine or any other for that matter but i am there through every process to oversee and make sure things run soomthly. As far as the shows I do what can I have several health issues I cant do nearly what I use to. I still do all the shows even if I can't personally unload every box myself. And yes Jim due to lower back issues and a knee problems I do sit alot even when working to keep preasure off my knee and lower back is that crime? I thought these posts were to give info and post machines for sale and help one another not bash someone?
 
Just a suggestion that I personally feel all designers and builders of ANYTHING should heed...

Before you sell anything, you better be sure it works, and it lasts. This means debugging it yourself first. And once you are completely satisfied with it, loan it to someone else so they can fool around with it and discover problems that you missed. You should even run the machine for a life test before you sell it.

It is absolutely foolish to think you are going to make a bug free design on your first attempt. Its one thing to make a one-off for your personal use. But when you make a product to sell to others, you MUST be sure it is a good product. So many problems can be avoided if you are confident in what you sell.

I'm speaking with my personal experience engineering consumer products for the last 7 years, not cuemaking products. Nothing is ever ready on the first, 2nd, even third attempt, for the general population.

If you do this, your company will gain a long-term reputation of quality, because by the time the product gets to the consumer, it will be READY. If you don't do this, and use the general population as a testing ground, your company will be regarded as low quality.

Take your pick.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Just a suggestion that I personally feel all designers and builders of ANYTHING should heed...

Before you sell anything, you better be sure it works, and it lasts. This means debugging it yourself first. And once you are completely satisfied with it, loan it to someone else so they can fool around with it and discover problems that you missed. You should even run the machine for a life test before you sell it.

It is absolutely foolish to think you are going to make a bug free design on your first attempt. Its one thing to make a one-off for your personal use. But when you make a product to sell to others, you MUST be sure it is a good product. So many problems can be avoided if you are confident in what you sell.

I'm speaking with my personal experience engineering consumer products for the last 7 years, not cuemaking products. Nothing is ever ready on the first, 2nd, even third attempt, for the general population.

If you do this, your company will gain a long-term reputation of quality, because by the time the product gets to the consumer, it will be READY. If you don't do this, and use the general population as a testing ground, your company will be regarded as low quality.

Take your pick.
Click to expand...

Thats a good statement. Things should be ready, niot just boxed and shipped. If it's supposed to be accurate machine it should arrive that way. I don't want to get carried away with this, jim
 
brianna187 said:
Thanks Rick for not only your business but your support! Your right I never have claimed to be a CNC expert, what I am an expert on is taking an idea from nothing to completion a timely manor. Where I pass on a suprior product at a fair price. It takes several poeple to complete these machines and other items and sell them, from paper and cad drawings to crating and shipping. I never have or want to take all the credit for this machine or any other for that matter but i am there through every process to oversee and make sure things run soomthly. As far as the shows I do what can I have several health issues I cant do nearly what I use to. I still do all the shows even if I can't personally unload every box myself. And yes Jim due to lower back issues and a knee problems I do sit alot even when working to keep preasure off my knee and lower back is that crime? I thought these posts were to give info and post machines for sale and help one another not bash someone?
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Yup, sorry that was a cheap shot Lee. Ironic what it takes to get your attention. I will tell you what, you had a good friend. One of these days you may decide to fix that. Until then, I will stay off your side of the street. Good luck to you. Someday though please contact me and let me know if profit was worth the real price payed. P.S. you still owe me a tool post and a carrage for my taig lathe. The was the promise that hurt the most. You shouldn't sells a friends property and not replace it.

Jim.
 
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First off let me say that I am totally neutral here. Just been reading through the post. I have had many offers to "partner" up with people in my business over the years. At times when money was tight I even gave it the slightest consideration but always opted against it anyway. Reason being exactly the problem you guys are having. Along with the fact that no one has ever came to the table with the knowledge of the business that I have or the funds. I've just always felt like I'd be carrying a partner along but they would be reaping the benefits of my hard work, experience, and knowledge. With this being said, I'll just reap all the benefits when things are going good and if ever they're not, at least my business has to only feed one family. In a nut shell, when it comes to your woman or your money you have very few true friends (if any). The only way to find the true ones is the hard way. If you have a good niche in life. Go at it by yourself and just do all ONE man can do. It can be very rewarding. Good luck with settling your dispute guys. My advice it to go your own separate ways in the cnc business and try to somehow remain friends.
 
Mc2 said:
Yup, sorry that was a cheap shot Lee. Ironic what it takes to get your attention. I will tell you what, you had a good friend. One of these days you may decide to fix that. Until then, I will stay off your side of the street. Good luck to you. Someday though please contact me and let me know if profit was worth the real price payed. P.S. you still owe me a tool post and a carrage for my taig lathe. The was the promise that hurt the most. You shouldn't sells a friends property and not replace it.

Jim.
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jim
you didnt have to do anything to get my attenion I am just refusing to get into a heated agrugement as i said before there were and are many hidden costs in this project you might not realize
i dont think i made dime off these machines after paying all these expenses im sure you know just what i am talking about you have done a few shows with me the cost is amazing you know that and you also know what I have put into this countless hours and dollars really when the smoke clears no one in this business is getting rich, you of anyone knows whats envolded in suport you do it for a living always ansering calls and doing service all over the counrtyside not to change the subect but on the issue of bill selling his machine know one tryed to take advantage of him or give him less then he payed for maybe you were right in your post i think you said im only going to sell it someone that knows cnc machines that might be a good idea align rite sells a cnc for $13000.00 of that money they give jerry I believe around $1000.00 for a year of tech suport theres a ton of profit packed in there but when you recieve the machine they dont know a thing about cue building its up to the tech suport maybe this would be a good subject for a seperate post just where do you draw the line even big machine dealers sales man sell the machine but dont go on site and show the customer how to use it . well as for your parts i do owe you i just keep forgeting them i am getting some taig orders this week ill for sure send you those items also you have cue the sneaky you know which one its on the way back back from scruggs shop when I recieve it ill send it either your way or mikes way up to you so you can get it finished up thats a keeper for sure after talking to dean the other day he feels tim will close the doors for good making that cue only go up in value ill pm or email you when it arrives.lee
 
brianna187 said:
jim
you didnt have to do anything to get my attenion I am just refusing to get into a heated agrugement as i said before there were and are many hidden costs in this project you might not realize
i dont think i made dime off these machines after paying all these expenses im sure you know just what i am talking about you have done a few shows with me the cost is amazing you know that and you also know what I have put into this countless hours and dollars really when the smoke clears no one in this business is getting rich, you of anyone knows whats envolded in suport you do it for a living always ansering calls and doing service all over the counrtyside not to change the subect but on the issue of bill selling his machine know one tryed to take advantage of him or give him less then he payed for maybe you were right in your post i think you said im only going to sell it someone that knows cnc machines that might be a good idea align rite sells a cnc for $13000.00 of that money they give jerry I believe around $1000.00 for a year of tech suport theres a ton of profit packed in there but when you recieve the machine they dont know a thing about cue building its up to the tech suport maybe this would be a good subject for a seperate post just where do you draw the line even big machine dealers sales man sell the machine but dont go on site and show the customer how to use it . well as for your parts i do owe you i just keep forgeting them i am getting some taig orders this week ill for sure send you those items also you have cue the sneaky you know which one its on the way back back from scruggs shop when I recieve it ill send it either your way or mikes way up to you so you can get it finished up thats a keeper for sure after talking to dean the other day he feels tim will close the doors for good making that cue only go up in value ill pm or email you when it arrives.lee
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Thank you Lee. By the way, heated argument? Let me ask a question. You do not need to give me an anser just to yourself. Have I ever raised my voice to you? As far as the cost of those machine, yes they are expensive to have built. Didn't you ever realise that I have that ability as demestrated. By the way I commend you for taking the high road on this. Please though if you call me lazy again, use the turm as I would. When you recieve those items, pleas just send them to Mr. Johnson.

Jim.
 
Bout Time

Mc2 said:
Thank you Lee. By the way, heated argument? Let me ask a question. You do not need to give me an anser just to yourself. Have I ever raised my voice to you? As far as the cost of those machine, yes they are expensive to have built. Didn't you ever realise that I have that ability as demestrated. By the way I commend you for taking the high road on this. Please though if you call me lazy again, use the turm as I would. When you recieve those items, pleas just send them to Mr. Johnson.

Jim.
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Kissy Kissy!:p
 
brianna187 said:
i think you said im only going to sell it someone that knows cnc machines that might be a good idea align rite sells a cnc for $13000.00 of that money they give jerry I believe around $1000.00 for a year of tech suport
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The last time I had talked to align rite Tech Support was an additional $300-$400 on top of the machine and included around 8 or 10 programs as well.
 
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